Grieving Voices Guest, Grieving Voices Podcast, Podcast, season 5 |
SHOW NOTES SUMMARY:
With over a decade of experience collecting stories globally, this week’s guest and author, Annie Sklaver Orenstein, has been featured on platforms such as NBC Nightly News and Politico. Her book, Always a Sibling: The Forgotten Mourners Guide to Grief, is an empathetic resource for surviving siblings—a group often overlooked in mourning.
Annie shares her insights about sibling relationships being some of the longest-lasting bonds in life. This perspective offers new dimensions to understanding grief, especially for those who haven’t experienced sibling loss themselves. She emphasizes that siblings spend more time together during childhood than with their parents—highlighting how integral these relationships are.
Annie shares her personal story of losing her brother Ben, who was killed in Afghanistan after enlisting pre-9/11 with aspirations to serve politically and make impactful changes. The raw recounting of receiving the devastating news underscores the surreal nature of loss and its immediate emotional upheaval.
Key Takeaways:
- Sibling Relationships: Often our longest-lasting bonds, crucial yet frequently neglected in grief discussions.
- Suppressing Emotions: Surviving siblings might downplay their grief to protect grieving parents.
- Anger & Coping: Allowing oneself to feel intense emotions like anger can be vital for healing.
- Cultural Misunderstandings: Children aren’t necessarily emotionally equipped despite exposure; they need support tailored to their developmental stage.
- Grief’s Unique Forms: Each person’s process is distinct; societal stages don’t capture every individual experience.
Annie highlights that while society often overlooks sibling mourners, acknowledging their unique grief journey is essential. Her advocacy through writing serves as a reminder that all forms of grief deserve recognition and respect.
Ultimately, this episode sheds light on navigating complex emotions following a sibling’s death while stressing self-compassion and honest emotional expression as pillars for coping with such irreplaceable losses.
RESOURCES:
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CONNECT WITH VICTORIA:
Understanding Sibling Grief with Annie Sklar Orenstein
Introduction
Grieving the loss of a sibling is an often overlooked but profoundly impactful experience. In this episode of “Grieving Voices,” we are joined by author and qualitative researcher Annie Sklar Orenstein, who delves into the complexities of sibling grief through her book, Always a Sibling: The Forgotten Mourners Guide to Grief. With over a decade of expertise in storytelling and oral history, Annie sheds light on why siblings deserve more recognition in the grieving process.
The Unique Bond Between Siblings
Annie points out that sibling relationships often last longer than any other familial bond. From childhood to adulthood, siblings share countless experiences that shape their identities. This deep connection makes losing a sibling uniquely painful. For instance, she highlights how children spend more time with their siblings than parents or fathers—a statistic supported by research.
Annie’s own children exemplify this bond; they share a room and know each other’s quirks better than anyone else in the family. This intimate relationship underscores why surviving siblings feel such an intense void when one passes away.
Personal Story: Loss of Her Brother Ben
The discussion naturally shifts to Annie’s personal experience—losing her brother Ben, who died while serving in Afghanistan due to an unexpected suicide bombing. Through recounting these events, she paints a vivid picture of sudden loss and its immediate impact on loved ones.
Ben’s death brought about overwhelming emotions for Annie and her family. She describes transitioning from everyday activities like babysitting her nephew to facing unimaginable grief together as news spread quickly among them.
Anger and Emotional Expression
One particularly resonant aspect was Annie’s struggle with anger—a new emotion for someone not typically prone to it—and how unfiltered emotional expression helped cope initially before time gradually eased some pain elements. She emphasizes allowing oneself space for raw feelings rather than suppressing them entirely can be crucial during mourning periods involving significant losses such as those stemming from close-knit relationships like between brothers/sisters alike!
Societal Oversight & Cultural Contexts
A noteworthy point discussed involves societal oversight regarding mourning practices where people often focus predominantly upon parents/partners whilst neglecting equally important roles played within families – namely surviving siblings themselves! This lack thereof awareness leads many feeling isolated/unacknowledged amidst collective sorrows shared amongst kinfolk collectively too…
Episode Transcription:
Victoria Volk: Thank you for joining me on this episode of grieving voices. Today, I’m excited to have Author Annie Slaver Orenstein. She is a qualitative researcher, oral historian and storyteller who has spent over a decade. Collecting stories from people around the world. Her work has been featured on NBC Daily News, Comedy Central, Hotbig Tim Post, political, time, and motherly. In always a sibling, the forgotten, mourners, guide to grief, Annie uses her own story and those of others to create the empathic, thoughtful, practical resource that surviving siblings so desperately need. And I did read it, and thank you so much. For sharing your work with the world. And what was eye opening for me even just early on in the first few chat couple chapters, I was like, I never really thought about how our relationship with our sibling is the longest relationship we have. Never ever looked at it like that. So thank you for that awareness that you brought to me. Amongst many other things, according to my notes. But I really enjoyed the book and I really do feel like it’s a wonderful asset for people who have lost a sibling. I personally have not lost a sibling, but I tell you just reading the book, I thought about my sister and my brother a lot, obviously, my siblings. But I’m very tight with my sister. She’s nine years older than me. And, you know, it was like my second mom and has, you know, kind of been the motherly figure in my life for much of my life. So Yeah, the bond. Right? The the sibling bond. They know your childhood, like, nobody else. That’s very true.
Annie Sklaver Orenstein: They do and they you know, one of the things that I thought was so interested. There there are a lot of stats that I learned and that I heard that really stuck with me. And one of I guess, two, that really resonated with me and I think really like encapsulate this is that children siblings spend more time together in childhood than they do with their parents. And that more people, I believe this is a US debt, but more people grow up in a household with siblings than with fathers. And I look at my own kids, they’re six and nine. They absolutely spend more time together than with me. You know? And after school, they’re with us, or they’re in upper school, but they’re together. They share a room. And after I leave at night, they don’t fall right to sleep. I wish they fall right to sleep, you know, but there’s chattering and there’s stuff going on and they absolutely, you know, no things about each other that I don’t know. There will be times where, you know, my daughter tells me something, and I’m surprised to hear it, and my son is like, I’ve known that for weeks. And it’s it’s true. You know, it just it it’s how families function. It’s not like a judgment. It’s just how it’s how families function. It’s how things work. And so regardless of, you know, an adulthood whether or not you have a good relationship or a bad relationship or, you know, as most are somewhere in the middle, that time together and that, you know, kind of pressure cooker relationship, it it impacts you. It makes you who you are in many many ways.
Victoria Volk: Yes. And that was, like, I had so many ahas when I was as I was reading and and And today, we’re we’re talking about Ben, and that’s what your book is about is the loss of your brother. And the one question I had early on in the book is I’m a veteran. And I was in the National Guard. Your brother was in the reserves. Mhmm. And one of the questions I had early on in my notes was, what made him enlist in the first loop?
Annie Sklaver Orenstein: It’s a great question. And I asked him that no shortage of time. He so there were a few things. One is that he had some political aspirations. He wasn’t, like, necessarily sure if he would run for office, but maybe he would work for a politician or something like that. And he had a very strong kind of drive for service, and he felt like if he was going to do that, he should have a military background. And that having a military title would help him. He studied international affairs and diplomacy at at Fletcher, and he worked for the CDC and for FEMA. And he really felt like you know, having that having that credential would help him. It was when he enlisted, it was two thousand. So this was pre-nine eleven. They paid for him to go to grad school, know, they paid they paid for Fletcher, and and he got the the officer title. And then, you know, the second piece of it is that he had this idea that is I mean, you tell me, but logical ish to me that NGO, there are places that the Army can can go and can work and can help that aren’t even accessible to NGOs. And the army has these incredible resources and huge amounts of money, and he felt like if he was on the inside, he could use that to go into these places that really needed help and he could help them. And so on the one hand, it was kind of a strategic move. And on the other hand, it was like, and while I’m here, I actually think I can make change from the inside and do all of this good work. And that was, you know, ultimately what he was a civil affairs officer, and that was ultimately, you know, you know, what what he was working towards was a lot of infrastructure projects. And he did on his first deployment in Africa, they were bringing clean water and building wells, and he ended up forming a nonprofit when he got home to continue that work. So it was it was really a a combination of things. But I will tell you that when, you know, on nine eleven and when those towers went down, it that was when I started to be terrified. And I thought, like, why did you just do this? You know, he had finished boot camp in so I guess it was two thousand one. He had finished boot camp in August. And then the twin towers went down. And it was very quickly. We were like, oh, this is not this is not gonna be what you thought it was.
Victoria Volk: I want you to mention the nonprofit he started because I I’m kinda wondering just even reading the book. You alluded to that it’s still going. But what happened was because it was called it’s called clear water initiative.
Annie Sklaver Orenstein: Clearwater initiative. It was absorbed eventually. After a few my parents ran it for a few years. And it was then absorbed by another clean water NGL or absorbed I I don’t know what the right word is. Like, it’s not like it was bought, but it was like
Victoria Volk: absolved? Yeah.
Annie Sklaver Orenstein: So they’re still, you know, continuing the work, but it’s not run by our family anymore, it’s international lifeline fund, I believe, is what it’s what the larger organization is called, that has since kind of absorbed it and is running the project.
Victoria Volk: No, we haven’t mentioned when he actually passed and how long it’s been since you wrote the book and all of that. Can you can we kind of rewind a little bit? And then I kind of wanna re pass forward again to that mission that you initially had after he passed to give up your own dreams to pursue his and Mhmm. Kinda yeah. Let’s rewind the clock and then kind of fast forward again.
Annie Sklaver Orenstein: Yes. Of course. So rewind the clock to when when he passed. So he was deployed to Afghanistan in July of two thousand and nine, and he was killed on October second of two thousand nine. So it was almost, I think, just shy of three months into his deployment. And he was civil affairs officer. And so they, you know, they obviously dealt a lot with civilians, community leaders. And what we’ve been told and I I’ve since spoken to men and his unit is that there was what he thought was, you know, a meeting with a local community leader and they were out on foot and that was kind of part of it was they would go out on foot and all these things because they didn’t want to be threatening. They didn’t want to, like, show up to a meeting with a local leader in a tank. Right? So they show up on foot. The village was pretty empty, like in hindsight, suspiciously empty. But they got to where they were supposed to be this person and walked around to the back of the building, and there was a suicide bomber just waiting for them. And my brother who was the captain of their unit and then one other soldier in the unit and their translator were all killed.
Victoria Volk: And so receiving that news?
Annie Sklaver Orenstein: Yeah. So I was you know, it surprised me at the time and still does, but, like, just how quickly they got the news to us. You know, it was that day. My parents had always said things like, no news is good news. And in, you know, leading up to that point, any period of not hearing anything, I found really terrifying. And then I realized just how quickly there were soldiers showing up at my parent store staff, and I realized no news is good news because if there’s bad news, they find you. So that night. It was a Friday. And my other brother, my brother, Sam, had a one year old, and who is now about to turn sixteen, which is wild. And I was babysitting. I was babysitting my nephew. I had just, you know, he was asleep. I had ordered dinner and I was sitting in my brother’s apartment and the front door opened. And my first thought was What is the delivery guy have a key to their apartment? I think that’s weird. And I kind of stood up to go walk over and see what was going on. And my brother and sister-in-law were standing there, and they did not look. Okay. And my my first thought was they must have gotten in a fight and, you know, now they’re home. And and literally, my first thought was like, oh, am I still gonna get this sushi or, like, am I gonna have to leave? And, like, do I wait for the delivery guy? Like
Victoria Volk: This will
Annie Sklaver Orenstein: just you know, it it really I don’t know how their faces didn’t break me out more, but they just kind of sandwiched me in a hug, and my brother Sam said, it’s Ben. And I said he’s but he’s okay. Right? And Sam said, no. Then far. And I remember sitting on their couch and kind of rocking than just saying this is not supposed to happen. This is not supposed to happen. And, you know, the kind of chain of events my dad had gotten home and there were soldiers on the on the doorstep. According to our neighbors. They had been there for a few hours, just waiting. And, you know, my parents ultimately called Sam and my my other brother. And I was living alone at the time, and so they were planning to drive into New York City to tell me because they were nervous about me getting the news, you know, alone in my apartment. And Sam said to them, she’s she’s sitting on my couch. I’ll go tell her. So he had to come home and tell me. And my brother Ben was engaged at the time and his fiance’s house was kind of in the middle of where we lived and where my parents lived. So we all met there. And then I went back home with my parents. And, you know, my it just felt like everything. Everything kind of crumbled in that moment. Right? Like, I was sitting there waiting for, like, dinner delivery. I was babysitting my nephew. And then the next thing I knew I was you know, a few hours later, I was back in my childhood home and we were figuring out who’s gonna drive to Dover to meet the transport plane and who’s gonna tell our grandma who’s you know, mid nineties and and just the the speed of it all was really surprising to me. The speed at which they got him home, the the speed at which we got the news, like, it all happened very fast especially considering that it happened very, very far away.
Victoria Volk: I like to I not like to, but I kinda think of trauma as too much, too soon, too fast.
Annie Sklaver Orenstein: Mhmm. You
Victoria Volk: know Mhmm. How our minds can ruminate on that. On just getting the news. Right? And and what was it? Then it’s, like, later, it’s, like, a complete blur. You just I you know, having been deployed, you never I mean, it’s like, you know, we’re we’re busy. Right? We’re busy doing things and doing the mission every day and to think about the family sitting at home. Right? We, you know, we have we don’t know that side of it. My husband was through at the same time, so it was like we had a lot of family that was probably losing sleep and wondering if they were going to get a knock on the door, we did lose three men on our deployment and because we cleared roadside bones. That’s what we did. And I was a medic. So, yeah, it’s that’s the other side of the coin that the family sacrificed too. The families suffer too. And so Yeah. I I just you don’t go on deployment thinking you’re not gonna come home, but you definitely know that’s a possibility. Right? And every day Mhmm. The wire you think is today the day. And Mhmm.
Annie Sklaver Orenstein: I think about to the you know, and you were saying, like, too much, too fast. Like, I think about some of the, like, phone calls or things that that I thought were, like, really important, you know, in that moment. Like, I remember when I was done babysitting, I was going to meet up with a friend who was in town, who lived elsewhere. And I think I texted her something like, I’m I’m not gonna make it out tonight. My my brother was just killed in Afghanistan. You know? And, like, I called I was in grad school and we had, like, a Saturday workshop. And I was really nervous to call the head of my program to tell her I wasn’t gonna make it the next day. You know? And, like, I just didn’t even I didn’t know what I was saying. I didn’t know what I was doing. You know? I think there was a part of me that felt like this is the beginning and this is about to get really crazy. Like as soon as I get home as soon as I am with my parents, as soon as whatever, like, a lot of things are going to happen very quickly, and I need to just make sure no one expects anything of me, you know. In hindsight, like, I think it could have just not shown up. I could have just said, like, something came up. I’m not gonna be there or just not responded at all. You know, like but now I think about being on the receiving. Like, what would I have done if I had gotten that text from someone. What do you you know, but you’re just, like, the it it felt like methodical. Like, I didn’t know what it was doing, but I knew that I shouldn’t stand someone up. I knew that I shouldn’t just skip class. So, like, let me just let these people know, and then I can fall apart and do all of these other things. But but yeah. In hindsight, I was like, man, I, like, I knew what not. To do those few little things even though I genuinely you know, aside from that, I felt like I had no idea what was going on.
Victoria Volk: Almost as if the world stands still and then spinning around. Okay. And then your standstill, and it’s like everyone else is moving. It’s
Annie Sklaver Orenstein: Mhmm. Yeah. And there was, like, no real filter for a while. Like, you know, I couldn’t think straight enough to even, like, filter myself. This is a this is a terrible story, but I I volunteered to go to my grandmother who was a character. She was very mean. So Leo loved her. And everyone else went to Dover. And I get cars sick and the idea of sitting in an eleven passenger van and driving from Connecticut to Delaware and back in one day so that I could see this casket move planes was too much. Like, that I something about the idea of being in that van and knowing I would be sick the whole like, I couldn’t do it. So I said, I’ll I’ll go tell grandma. And I told my grandma, you know, Ben was killed in Afghanistan. She said, what? Ben was killed in Afghanistan. And she kept saying what, and I kept saying it louder. And my boyfriend at the time, now my husband is, like, just standing off to the side, you know, clearly doesn’t know what to do is I’m just saying this over and over. And my grandma says, again, she’s in her mid nineties. And my grandma says, it should have been me. And I said, I know. Who’s like that? Except, yes, she was in her mid nineties. Yeah. But we all thought she would be the next one to go, you know? And I think about that all the time that she said it should have been made. And I said, I know. And she didn’t bat and I. You know? Like, she didn’t think it was weird. It was probably the most honest thing I’ve ever said. But there was just no filter left. You know, there was no it was all I could do just to go through the motions and to to try to to try to be gentle about anything was just, I think, more than I could, more than I could do.
Victoria Volk: That brings up anger for me in your book. You devote, like, a whole chapter to it, and the role of anger. And I’m curious what you would say to this, but what what did anger reveal to you about your grief?
Annie Sklaver Orenstein: I think a lot of times anger was like the proof that I was not okay. You know, I’m an emotional person. I’d been an emotional person. I’m an anxious person. I’m not an angry person. Anchor was was new for me. And it and that made it really scary because you know, if I was feeling anxious or nervous, okay, I felt this before. I was feeling stat or lonely. Okay. I felt this before, but the anger. You know, everything else was a heightened emotion, the anger felt like a new emotion, scary emotion. And I couldn’t say, I I didn’t know what to do with it. I didn’t know you know, how to channel it or or where to put it. And so I it made me feel very out of control and made me feel like I can’t like, pretend I’m okay because this is, like, not okay. And it would be very spud in, you know, as as anger can be.
And I just didn’t I didn’t expect it to be as intense as it was. I didn’t think it would be as hard to control as it was. And it was, you know, a part of grief that I didn’t know what to do with, really. And my brother was so not an angry person. He was very generous and loving and, like, a gentle giant, you know. And so anger wasn’t, you know, wasn’t in a motion I had really seen him demonstrate maybe ever. Even when I was like, I’m eight years younger, I spent plenty of time bothering him when he was in high school and annoying him. And he never got mad at me. He never got angry. And so it felt, you know, it felt bad. It felt kind of out of control, but it also felt like, out of character for me and out of character for him, you know? Like, I felt like he wouldn’t be this way. He wouldn’t be like this. Now, of course, he would. If someone else, you know, in our family had died instead of him, I’m sure he would have been just as angry as the rest of us. But it it felt very, like, a very unknown emotion to me. And so I I found it very, like, disconcerting and and kind of frightening.
Victoria Volk: What did you find that worked or helped you kind of soften the edges of that anger?
Annie Sklaver Orenstein: Time helped, but that’s, like, the worst possible answer. It’s, you know, one of the things that we have no control over. Letting myself be angry helped. You know, not just trying to sweep it under the rug, not trying to suppress it or, you know, ignore it. But, like, letting myself feel really pissed off. You know, I tell the story in the book of, like, breaking all of these dishes in my apartment. I tried that. It didn’t help as as much as I wanted. But there were definitely, like, yelling, screaming, like, yelling into a pillow, and just it was like it was like I had to get it out of my body in some way. And so crying yelling, not trying to you know, I would try to, like, hold it in and keep it together and be, you know, normal, but I thought it was normal. Even if I was just like home alone, which was so unnecessary. You know, if you can’t fall apart when you’re home alone, like, you have to be you have to let yourself do that. So I think, you know, when I let myself, like, yeah, I’m really angry. I am feeling really angry right now. And I’m just going to let myself feel really angry right now. And you know, maybe I’d go for a walk, maybe I’d scream into my pillow and eat nachos and watch arrested development, you know. But sometimes it was that, like, laughing would help, you know, I watched arrested development a lot. But I think, ultimately, it was just letting myself be angry and not trying to deny that. Was kind of ultimately, like, the thing that helped me deal with it the most.
Victoria Volk: Before Ben’s passing and growing up, what had been the conversation around grief and death and dying and you know, was it something that was openly talked about in your home or, you know, where you could express things and was it yeah. What what were the beliefs and the things that were kinda shared about grief and death and dying as you grew up.
Annie Sklaver Orenstein: Yeah. It was talked about, but I also think we were exceptionally fortunate. You know, my four grandparents all lived into their nineties. You know, the my my grandpa maybe my grandpa was eighty nine or ninety, but everyone else was mid nineties. But there were two the two years I was in grad school, I lost two grandparents, one uncle, and my brother. So it was kind of all at once. But, like, you know, I remember the first big loss was when my grandfather died, and that was in seventh grade. And, you know, I’m sure I’m sure we didn’t see all of the crying. I’m sure we didn’t see all of the emotion. But, like, I I my parents ex you know, they expressed emotion. They expressed grief. I remember in freshman year of high school, a dear friend of mine whose mom had grown up with my dad, and that was how I knew her. And her mom passed away. She had been stick with cancer for for a while. And I remember getting home from volleyball practice, and my dad was sitting on the front porch crying. And he told me, you know. And so it wasn’t it wasn’t a tabbing subject, but at the same time, we didn’t lose that many people, you know. And we didn’t lose them other than, you know, Laura, my friend’s mom, you know, my grandparents have lived very long, full lives, and it’s different, you know, to bury someone in their nineties versus someone in their thirties. And so by the time Ben died, you know, I had lost one friend and three of my grandparents. So grief existed. It was around, but but it was different. It was a different kind of grief than this was.
Victoria Volk: Have you experienced great experiences since been past and since the book has been written and published and what have and what has been your approach differently now in those experience. If you’ve had them, I I don’t wanna assume you did. But
Annie Sklaver Orenstein: Yeah. I mean, because my grandmother died shortly after Ben just about two months later.
Victoria Volk: One said it should’ve been me.
Annie Sklaver Orenstein: Yeah. And, you know, I think in that case, we were all still so deep in grief that it it didn’t feel distinct in its in its own way. And I have experienced a while since then. I have a good friend whose sister who I knew died. And and there have been some other losses, but none, fortunately, like none in my immediate family or or anything that close. I think I’ve learned a lot about supporting other people who are grieving and, you know, things to say and not to say and to just show up. But I I yeah. Fortunately, there has not been a loss at a cyclical incident. Howard Bauchner:
Victoria Volk: A large theme about your book is the lack of attention that’s given to the siblings after a sibling passes. And so I’d like you to share what that experience was for you, things that maybe were unhelpful that people said to you. Just advice or not even advice, but just reassurances and things that you would like to share with other siblings who may listen to this who have lost a sibling.
Annie Sklaver Orenstein: Yeah. Siblings are known as forgotten mourners. And when I read that, you know, in in some of the kind of academic literature and grief literature, I had this moment of, like, we don’t we all know this. Like, what are we gonna do about it? We’re like, we’re just referencing it and passing, you know, and I even asked some grief experts about it. And they were like, oh, yeah. Yeah. That’s what they did. And it’s like, Why why didn’t anyone tell me this, you know? Why didn’t I know? And I think ultimately what it is is like people ask about other people and they don’t ask about you. So but you are the in. Right? So you’re the one that people can ask about how your parents are doing. And, you know, maybe how if it’s the sibling was an adult and was partnered, you know, how is the partner doing or how are the children doing? And I think that’s fine. There’s nothing wrong with, you know, asking me how my parents are doing. The problem is that people would ask how your parents are doing and they don’t ask how you’re doing. So it’s not that, you know, you shouldn’t ask how someone’s parents are doing. It’s just first ask me how I’m doing. Then asks me how my parents are doing. Right? It’s not either or. But I’m not just the messenger. People will often ask the sibling questions that they would not ask a parent, you know, details on the cause of death, or things like that, you know, where a sibling might feel like a kind of a safe ally or, you know, someone who knows all of the dirty details, but isn’t the grieving parent so you can ask them. And all of those things are just I mean, you just shouldn’t ask. Right? If there’s a question that you wouldn’t ask the parent don’t ask the sibling. If you wouldn’t ask the spouse, don’t ask the sibling. Don’t put them in that position. Right? If someone wants to tell you, they’ll tell you. Or the advice I like to give is just like, do, like, a normal person does and just Google it. Right? Like, I have tried to Google people’s cause of death before. I am a very curious person. I’m a researcher. I have questions exactly. We all do it. Just just Google my brother. Right?
Victoria Volk: If you put more friends
Annie Sklaver Orenstein: Exactly. Like, just do a little bit of Internet talking, and you might not you probably won’t find out all the boring details, but you’re gonna get a pretty good idea. And I think people, you know, they they ask the sibling as if the sibling is fine, but also the sibling has this insider knowledge. So, like, let’s get the info. And, you know, I think siblings also in many cases and this is not a dig, but I think siblings in many cases kind of diminish intentionally diminish their own grief. Because you are watching your parents, you know, completely fall apart, your parents have just lost a child. They are obviously not okay. Seeing them you know, seeing them grieve can be frightening, especially for, you know, younger people if you, you know, lose a sibling in childhood, you know, folks I’ve talked to who lost a sibling in childhood or early adolescence. Describe their parents’ grief as being frightening. And and so if you see your parents struggling that much, the last thing you wanna do is make it worse. You don’t want to make them worried. You don’t want to, you know, you don’t want to be a problem. They have enough on their plate. They’re dealing with enough. So you try to be as easy as you possibly can. I think, especially with children, again, that, like, children early adolescence goes to, like, I’m gonna be as easy as I can, so that no one has to worry about me, and I can just be the easy child. And you know, people put a lot of pressure on themselves to be that perfect surviving child and to live for for, you know, both of them and to never do anything wrong and never cause their parents any pain because they have seen their parent insignificant amount of pain and they don’t want to cause that. And I think in adult sibling loss, it looks more like just taking care of everything and not putting anything on your parents. Never wanting to be a burden. Never wanting to seem like you aren’t okay because you want them to believe that you and everything will be okay? And sometimes we’re very convincing. You know, sometimes if you do that enough and you do that for long enough, you can trick yourself into thinking that you’re fine. And, you know, the thing that I say a lot in the book, maybe too much. I wondered about this when I was reading the audiobook. If it gets better too much, is you can’t outrun Greek.
You might do a really good job, acting like you’re fine, and then five, ten years later, everyone else can talk about your sibling and laugh and reminisce and you can’t say they’re gay without crying. You know, you still feel raw, like like it was, you know, a month after they died. And that’s what it feels like, or it it manifest in other ways in, you know, on in harmful, like, self coping skills in in other ways that it manifests. And I think, ultimately, the thing that’s most difficult is, like, yes, you do wanna try to be kind of easy for your parents and you do want to, you know, no, they can’t handle your pain right now and they can’t take it on and they can’t support you the way that you want to be supported. All of those things are true, but you still need to try and support somewhere. And you still need to find an outlet. And it’s not gonna be your parents because they can’t help you. And they can’t be there for you in the way that you need someone to be there for you. But you have to find some way to face it and to deal with it. And conversely, you’re not really in a position to be your parents. Person or your parents best support. You know, you can support them in some ways, but, you know, there’s there’s a line where they can’t lean on you for everything because you do need to address your own grief and loss. And you can’t do that if you are the primary, you know, emotional caretaker of of your your parent. And so it’s a really difficult position because the people who are most affected and the people who know them the best and are probably grieving the most. Can’t be each other’s emotional support in every way, but you can sit together and you can cry together and you can talk about them together. You know, you just can’t you don’t have enough to give, you know. You you don’t have enough left to give to really be that for someone else, but you can still be together and you can still be experiencing it and grieving it together without having that kind of without trying to, like, put it on someone.
Victoria Volk: One of the as I was reading, like, I I read the book from the lens of as a child engraver who lost my father when I was eight. And so when you were talking about just the things what you were just saying, and there you we actually this is only the second time I came across I heard this word. Paratification. And what kind of Yeah. Yeah. Back to that. But there’s so many parallels between what I experience as a child grieving and what you described as a sibling grieving in the context of the relationship with the parents. And when one parent dies and the other is living, like there’s so many parallels of what that child experiences and what how you described it as a sibling with sibling loss. So I just wanna say, like, even if you haven’t lost a sibling, this book can bring up awarenesses and things for you that may not that you that kind of surprised you. So that was surprising to me how similar you described that and what my experience was. And you’ve mentioned this word parentification. Again, only second time I’ve heard this or seen this word, and it’s been, like, within a short amount of time. So I was, like, I’ve never heard this word. I’ve been doing I’ve been working with Grievers for, like, over four years. I’ve I you know, certified grief specialist, I’ve never heard this term. I’m like, so, but it’s when children are pushed into the parent role to be when it’s not developmentally appropriate, And you have a line in your book that says, I can’t take on your grief right now. And it’s only
Annie Sklaver Orenstein: that was a line from an interview. And this woman was saying that she you know, her mom was really relying on her calling her all hours the day or night whenever she is upset to talk to her and but she really had to set some boundaries. And I was fascinated by this because I was like, what did you say? I mean, admittedly, basically, my mom did not put that in my put me in that position, but I guarantee you. If she had, I would have latched on hook line and thinker. I would have answered every phone call. It would have completely drained me. But I would not have known how to push back or set a boundary. And I asked this woman at, oh, what did you say to her? And she was so it was like it came it seemed like it came so naturally to her. She said, I just told her I can’t take on your grief right now. And I remember scribbling it onto an index card, you know, and like highlighting it. Like, this means to go in This has a home in the book verbatim, you know, and it just yeah, I can’t take on your grief right now.
Victoria Volk: If only, if right? You know, and being a highly sensitive person, I’m like you, you know, deep feeler, helpers, healers, like, this is when you are and this is a thing, like, this is how, like, co dependency kind of, takes root and then just manifest. Right? In in in the dynamics of relationships when you have either a parent that had passed or, like, a sibling and then the relationship with the parent. Like, this is how this can, like, just kind of, really shift the dynamics of a relationship. You know? It Mhmm. It rocks everything. It, like, this rug is swept from underneath and all that you knew is no more. It completely changes everything and sometimes it brings out characteristics and things and people that because they don’t know what to do with what they’re feeling, you know?
Annie Sklaver Orenstein: It’s like Mhmm.
Victoria Volk: It’s gotta do something with it. Well, I’ll just call my child and my child can be my therapist, you know.
Annie Sklaver Orenstein: Right. And my child understands and my child, you know, all of these things that are, you know I mean, probably not really true, but, like, you know, your child knew this person. They’re gonna answer your call. They’re, you know it just they’re gonna make you feel wanted or needed. Maybe, you know, I don’t know. But, yeah, it came up a lot. It came up in a lot of different people’s experiences. This, you know, just the authentication. You know, I think it’s the best word for it. It’s just making, putting the child into a role that is really developmentally appropriate for an adult and for a parent and not at all for a child. I think there’s also This is kind of related but broader. I think there’s this, like, larger cultural sentiment. They’re like, a lot of kids are growing up so fast and blah blah blah. But they’re not, you know, developmentally, biologically, they’re not. And so they’re exposed to more. They might know more. That doesn’t mean they’re equipped to handle it or that they’re equipped to handle these emotions. You know, our brains are not developing at a different speed. There’s just more input into it. And so it’s, I think, easy to think, to kind of fall into a trap of thinking that your child is an adult because they know big words and they can pair it back these things that they’ve seen on TikTok. But it doesn’t mean that their brain can actually understand or process or that you’re you know, that that they are emotionally prepared and developed and not to handle that stuff and and to handle the aftermath of it. Howard Bauchner:
Victoria Volk: I remind my kids all the time. Your frontal lobe is not developed until you’re like twenty five. So just kinda listen to me sometimes. I’ve been around the block longer than you. One thing I wanna get to and I actually just when I was reading this, I was like, I really wanna talk about this. And then I just recently saw one of your Instagram. You had done an interview and you talked about this very thing. And of course, I saw the title and I had to click on it and listen. But you were talking about the stages of grief. So in your book, it’s almost as if, like, like, you almost believed them. You believed in these things as a grief. Mhmm. And then fast forward to that instant that just recently listened to an interview. It’s like, oh, no. She doesn’t. There’s something else here. And so I actually had Ken Ross on my podcast, Elizabeth Kupala Ross’s son.
Annie Sklaver Orenstein: Okay.
Victoria Volk: Yeah. And but I wanna from your perspective, in your grief story, and what you were kind of experiencing at the time when you were writing the book? Because there was actually a little bit of a delay. Wasn’t that because there was it seemed like it was two years, like, towards the end. I can’t remember which chapter it was. It was, like, I’m thirteen years out. Yeah. But you’re actually fifteen years out.
Annie Sklaver Orenstein: I’m fifteen years. So the book I finished the book at this point. I submitted the manuscript a year and a half ago.
Victoria Volk: Oh.
Annie Sklaver Orenstein: Because there was, like, a year where it was in production. And then and I was writing it for about after it sold until it was due you know, I was probably writing it for a year and a half and then it was in production for a year and a half and I started it even, you know, before I had told it. So it was really written over the course of a few years. I think I believed So, like, taking a step back, I think the context that we all miss is that the stages of grief were developed in the context of death and dying, not for griefers, but for the person who is dying. Right? No one ever explained that to me. I thought it was how we agreed. And it’s not. It it was never meant to be that. Right? And so I thought, okay, I go I’m supposed to go through these stages. And so if I’m not going through the stages or if I’m going through the stages out of order or whatever I’m doing this wrong, there was a lot of times where I thought I was doing it wrong. And I didn’t understand even really until I was doing the research for the book. I mean, when I was researching the book was a, I so I knew by the time I was writing the book, I knew that, like, there was something off with either me or the stages of grief because we didn’t really work together. And I kind of had chalked it up to, like, well, maybe the stages of grief are, like, true for some people, but maybe they’re just not universal. And then when I was writing it, it was when I learned that no, actually, they weren’t meant for grievers at all in the first place. So, you know, of course not, but also that now there’s, you know, a a lot of a lot of people who think that it’s actually harmful to say that they’re at these stages of agreement or the exact reason that I experience, which is that it makes people feel like they’re doing it wrong or that, you know, there’s only one way to grieve or something like that, which there just isn’t. And I think, you know, in the book, I spell out the in in a lot of detail, there are these fifteen different, you know, known and acknowledged types of grief. And for me, you know, part of why I did that, everything in the book was something that, like, I found helpful for myself personally. And I think In the case of those types of grief, I found that a lot more helpful than the stages of grief because there was a lot more room for interpretation. There’s a lot more kind of possible combinations and and ways to breathe and ways to change And to me, not only did those resonate a lot more with my own experience, but they also kind of helped debunk this myth that there is one way to grieve, and it is to go through these five stages. You know, because if there are fifteen different types of grief that you can experience in combination with each other and really an unlimited number of combinations with each other, then how could there be these five stages that everyone goes through. And and I felt like that looking at the types of group grief was really more helpful for reflecting on your own experience and giving everyone that kind of weight and validation that they’re griefs that that they’re not grieving wrong, but there is no wrong weight to grieve. There are perhaps harmful, you know, self harm ways to grieve and destructive ways to grieve. But it’s all Greek. You know, it’s not it’s not wrong.
Victoria Volk: Well, because when I was reading those fifteen, I was like, wow, this is a lot. And I I resonated with some, you know, more than others. And I just thought, you know what, though, I never even if someone would have shared those with me years ago. That is like, do you think we’re looking for a label to identify with? Like, in our grief? Like, we’re just looking, where do I belong? And where does my grief fit in the grand scheme of grief. But at the end of the day, none of those are helpful anyway, either because Mhmm. They’re not moving you through your grief. They’re not helping you process your grief. It’s just a way of the type of grief. So at the end grieve is grief. Yeah.
Annie Sklaver Orenstein: Greece is great. I think the label is helpful because it makes you feel like you’re not alone and you’re not I don’t want to use the word crazy, but like, you are not you’re not doing it wrong, you’re not alone. Right? If if there are enough people who’ve experienced this thing, that they’ve come up with a name for it. Then I’m not the only one who has ever felt this way. And I think it’s that. It’s knowing that you are not alone, knowing that you are not losing your mind, knowing that you are not you know, reacting in a way that no one has ever reacted before or that you’re dover reacting or underreacting or whatever. I think the thing about a label is if there’s a label on something, then you are not the only one who has ever experienced this. There have been enough people who have experienced this that someone gave it a name, and that can be really validating. So, you know, and I think in some ways, it can help you figure out how to move through it because maybe you can figure out what the what the thing is to work on. But maybe then you work on it and you fall into one of the you know, like, it’s it’s it’s all gonna be a lifelong process. It’s not it’s never gonna be, like, fixed. But I do think especially for siblings who feel like their loss and their grief has been ignored and diminished to begin with. It’s really easy to feel like you’re overreacting or you’re doing this wrong or you’re not really supposed to be grieving or any of these other things. And so the label gives validation to the emotions you’re feeling even if it might not you know, give you a a path or like a step by step plan to follow, it makes you feel less alone and it makes you feel less like you’ve lost control of your mind.
Victoria Volk: Can we talk about forgiveness? Yes. Okay. So I am curious if you in your research ever heard of the book, the grief recovery handbook?
Annie Sklaver Orenstein: No. Oh. Or maybe I’ve heard of it, but I don’t think I’ve read it.
Victoria Volk: K. Well, this is me going through the handbook. You know, I’m like a researcher too. Right? Like, I can do this myself. I can go through this process myself. Yeah. No. I became certified group specialist out as I went after I realized I couldn’t do it myself. But I wanna talk about forgiveness because I’m curious if that has shifted for you a little bit since the book has been out. Because when you talked about it in your book, it was it was as if it was it’s like a gift you give somebody else. But what I’ve learned is that forgiveness as a gift I give myself. Mhmm. So I’m curious how if that’s shifted for you or if maybe that’s a perspective that you hadn’t considered before?
Annie Sklaver Orenstein: I think I don’t think I struggled with forgiveness as much as a lot of the people that I interviewed and spoke with. You know, there were there were people for whom forgiveness, you know, often because of the cause of death or, you know, the things that led up to it. Forgiveness was a big ask. And forgiveness was something where hearing their story I I can’t help but always kind of imagine myself in that position. And there were some stories where I thought I don’t I don’t know if I would have gone to forgiveness or could have gone to forgiveness. And so I was but I found myself being extremely you know, I found the forgiveness that people gave their loved ones to be extremely admirable. You know? And I would think I don’t know if I could have forgiven, but the fact that you did is incredible to me and it feels like such a gift. And I think, yes, it’s a gift to the other person, but This is a terrible thing to say, but if you’ve read the book, you know, I I again have very little filter. They don’t need your forgiveness because they’re dead. Right? And I do think that even when people are dead, they’re around us and their spirits are around us and we can feel their presence. But I think that by the time you’re a spirit that’s around us, you also kind of don’t need our forgiveness anymore. Like, hopefully, they know what the purpose was, and they know the greater meaning, and they probably look at us and think, like, you’ll get it one day. You know? And so I do I think forgiveness is for us. I don’t think forgiveness is for them. You know, I don’t think that that my brother, wherever he is, is losing sleep or, you know, worried that we’re not gonna forgive him. I think he sees a much bigger picture than we do, but I think it’s easy for us to loosely over giving that forgiveness. So I do think that forgiveness is when it comes to grief, you know, forgiveness and life, something different. But when it comes to forgiving someone who has died, I think it is a gift that we give ourselves, not something that we do on their behalf.
Victoria Volk: Well, and the thing is is you’re never gonna get an apology. Right? They’re gone?
Annie Sklaver Orenstein: No. You’re never gonna get an apology, and they’re never gonna be, like, thank you so much for forgiving me.
Victoria Volk: Exactly. So you’re sitting
Annie Sklaver Orenstein: out, like,
Victoria Volk: he’ll jail. You’re stuck in jail until yep. Can do that for yourself. Yeah. And that’s why it is yeah. So in this book is what it says, forgiveness is giving up the hope of a different or better yesterday.
Annie Sklaver Orenstein: I like that. Can I hang up? Any memorized letter yesterday?
Victoria Volk: Any memorized resentment of past events will limit and restrict our ability to participate fully in life. Mhmm. And Mhmm. Forgiveness is an action. It’s not a feeling.
And it is possible. I’ve
Annie Sklaver Orenstein: done it. Mhmm.
Victoria Volk: You know?
Annie Sklaver Orenstein: Absolutely. Absolutely.
Victoria Volk: Read this book. Definitely.
Annie Sklaver Orenstein: I will.
Victoria Volk: It I think it will give you and then reach out to me and let me know what your thoughts are. I’m I’m really curious.
Annie Sklaver Orenstein: Well,
Victoria Volk: one of the interesting things I found in your book to key points that I wanna bring up is You talk about one of the hardest things about sibling loss is accepting that the departed sibling existed in only one phase or part of the surviving sibling’s life. And It’s like as if, like, you know that it’s like they’re frozen in time in this phase of your life and all the phases that are to come, they’re not a part of it and how they know your childhood, like, nobody else. And can fill the gaps. And that struck a chord with me because, you know, I’m nine years younger than my sister, and she’s already filling the gaps for me for many years. Like, you know, because she obviously remembers more than I do about certain things. And I loved how you were called Squaver kitten. You know, because, you know, my sister is Veronica, and I’m Victoria, and she’s she’s always been big v and I’m little v. So we kinda have that. But yeah. And I would like you to speak to that just that how that’s kind of a consistent theme that you saw in the research that you were doing and it may be your own experience. Howard Bauchner:
Annie Sklaver Orenstein: Yeah. You know, I think going back to, you know, how we started this conversation and talking about siblings as our longest relationship. You know, they really biologically, they really should be our longest shared relationship. And that the your siblings, you know, are part of your life before any kind of adult partnership ornaments. And they continue in your life past the death of your parents. Traditionally. Right? Typically. And so you just they’re just always there. You always expect them to be there. Right? And you always expect, you know, you said your sister is nine years older than you. And so your sister should always be nine years older than you because she has always been nine years older than him. My brother was eight years older than me. So I’m now older than him.
Which is not the way the world should work. Right? Is
Victoria Volk: Wanting to skip your birthday in the book?
Annie Sklaver Orenstein: Yes. Yes. It’s like, you know, that Internet mean. Like, the math doesn’t matter. Like, my brother is eight years older than me, but I am older than him. Mhmm. And so you just expect that they will always be there because they always have been there and because that’s the birth order and that’s how that works. And so it’s hard to imagine there’s there’s I write about this in the book that there’s, like, a link between the part of our brain that we use for imagination and the part of our brain that we use for memory. So it’s hard to imagine something that, you don’t have a memory of it and and kind of vice versa. They’re they’re connected. And so I don’t have, you know, I didn’t have a memory of a world that he didn’t exist in. And so I couldn’t imagine a world that he didn’t exist in. It didn’t logically make sense to me. Because of the way our brains are wired, you know, there’s a very clear reason why that connection wasn’t made. And, you know, for me, I just always assumed my kids would know their uncles. And that, you know, my brother always wanted kids. I I assumed he would be a dad. Right? I didn’t think I would hit those milestones. Without him present, I didn’t think I would hit milestones that he never did. And it it really forces you to rewire, to literally rewire the synapses in your brain to understand the world in a different way. And siblings create their identities, you know, compared to and in opposition to each other. And so they’re such a central figure in our identity development and in who we are and then they’re gone. And it’s really hard to to center yourself again and just to figure out how everything now fits together with that key piece that’s missing. Again, even if it’s a bad relationship. Maybe your whole identity development has been based on the fact that no matter what you do not want to be like your sister, then you do everything different than your sister. Your sister is still a lynchpin in that identity development. So when she’s gone, when you’re not anchoring yourself on making sure you’re different than her, then who are you, and what do you do? You know, it’s hard to even imagine it. Because it’s just such an unknown world. And getting older than that is a real you know, I don’t know I don’t know if you were at that point with the loss of your father, but I’ve heard the same thing from people who’ve lost a parent that becoming older than your parent can feel very disorienting. You know?
Victoria Volk: It was actually, I’m just I’m yeah. He died when he was forty four. Mhmm. And for me like, turning forty four for me, I couldn’t experience that year without knowing or feeling like now imagine if I was given six months to live. You know what I mean? Like, putting myself in those shoes and imagining myself like my father and his experience and and he actually lived, like, sixteen months. But yeah. In turning forty five and being older. Yeah. It’s it’s those those dates. Right? Those milestones that they don’t stop even thirty plus years out. They don’t stop. Mhmm. And so this brings me it’s a good segue into because we’re kinda getting short on time, but I wanna bring this up because I think it’s so important. It’s a huge undercurrent in your book is music. Mhmm. How important music was to bend? How important it had been to your healing in through the throughout the book? You song lyrics have been huge. And then they get to the end of the book and you mention, and I was like, what? Indigo girls was his favorite band. I was Mhmm. Mhmm.
Annie Sklaver Orenstein: What? Mhmm. I You were in the military. That has to be rare. Right? That there are soldiers
Victoria Volk: Yeah.
Annie Sklaver Orenstein: Favorite band to be Indigo girls.
Victoria Volk: I actually so I actually texted my a girlfriend of mine, your book, and I said I just finished this. And she just said at the end that her you know, that Indigo Girls was her brother’s favorite band, and I just I thought of her because she and I have spent spent so much time in high school even after. Like, we’re still friends, you know, driving cruising down the road, seeing it. Like, I had the Elko part, she had the Sipreno, like, I’ve seen them in concert. Like, I think I even have a gut guitar pick that they threw out. Yeah. So I was like, what? Like, I don’t know. Like, he would have been like I like, I feel like he’s like a kindred spirit some way. Just how you described him and talked about him and through the music and all that.
Annie Sklaver Orenstein: Can I tell you a really good Indigo Girl story that happened after the book?
Victoria Volk: Yeah.
Annie Sklaver Orenstein: So Indigo Girls were coming to New Haven, which is where I live. And this was last August or September, just about a year ago. And I bought tickets to go with three of my girlfriends. And one of the first concerts I had been to was Indigo Girls in New Haven, after this concert venue called The Palace. So It’s approaching, I get the edits back from the publisher and they are due the same day as the Indigo World concert. So now the Indigo World concert takes on even more weight because now I’m like, okay, I need to hit send on this. Before the concert. And this is gonna be our celebratory concert. So I get to edits in, you know, everyone’s excited. My girlfriend’s all everyone’s excited. And I’m telling them about this first Indigo Girls concert I went to, which my brother Sam was also at. We all we all went through Indigo Girls faces. And and I was telling them about the policy at her, and I I was like, I get I don’t think it even exists anymore. And we walk into this venue. And I was like, this place looks like the Palace, and I Google it, and it is the Palace Theater, just new management and they changed the name. So now I realized I’m at the same you know, venue where it’s one of my first concerts, Indigo growth, all of these things. And we’re stand I was like, I’m gonna get something from the merch table. We’re standing in line with the merch table, and I say to my friend, Dana, I wish there was something that was, like, a piece of merch that was like symbolic of finishing the book and, you know, getting the manuscript in. And she said, you mean like that t shirt that has a bookcase on it? And their swag was like band book and it was like the t shirt had these bookshelves on it and the front pocket looked like a library, hard pocket. So I get so I get the tshirt, walk in the whole set is these oversized bookshelves with books on it. And then they start playing and they start playing one of the songs that I have in their book that starts with that’s a newer song. I hadn’t heard it before, but it the first line of the song is oh, Annie. I am sorry for your grief. So they start playing that song, which is kind of a, like, b side, like, deep track. Right? I’m crying. And I said to my friends, if they do power of two next, I I don’t know what I’m gonna do. I’m I’m probably gonna faint. Churna, next step they pray the power of two. And I am just balling, you know. And it was just it was, like, I you know what I’m talking about, this is the book that, like, I I was a bit obtuse to signs for a while. I was not really open to them. And eventually, once I was, I kind of realized that my brother had been, like, beating me over the head with them. And after power of two, my friend was like, so can we all agree that this was a sign? I said, yes. Yes. I feel like he’s here. And it was just, like, amazing moment where I, you know, I felt like he was at the concert with us. I felt like he was at the concert with us and I felt like he kept being like, Annie, I’m here. I’m still here. Don’t write this off. I know you’re gonna write this off. Let me just give you a little bit more proof. This is me. You know, it looks like again and again and again and it was just amazing. It was just it was an incredible experience and it felt like very much a culmination of of everything I had been working on and, you know, everything that he had loved. And, yeah, it was just incredible.
Victoria Volk: I have chill bumps and chill bumps. It truth bumps, I’ll say. Yeah. If that’s not a sign, holy
Annie Sklaver Orenstein: grail. Exactly. By the end of
Victoria Volk: In the book, you talked about with the little blue flowers, and I was like, whoa. That’s that’s pretty good sign. You’ll just have to read the book my friends to read that one, but it you talk I I’m glad you went there about the continuing bonds because, you know, depending on how you grow up and what your beliefs are and, you know, maybe as a child, you weren’t taught that, hey, you can still talk to your loved one. You can still talk to your sibling. You can still talk to your dad or your mom or whomever passed away or your childhood friend, you know, we aren’t or your pet even. Right? Like, you children, you know, they completely they totally bond with their pets. We just aren’t taught that that that bond can continue. You know, I think as adults, we kind of pass our beliefs, whatever they are onto our kids. And so we don’t believe that. We believe when you die, you just die, you go with the grave, and there’s that’s all that there is. Then, of course, that’s what children will believe. And you you don’t rule that continuing bonds is is possible, and that can be really healing for people.
Annie Sklaver Orenstein: Mhmm. Mhmm. Absolutely. I think growing up, I’m Jewish, and growing up, you know, I kind of was taught or believe that there’s a heaven, but there’s not a hell. Like, Jews don’t have a hell. And so I thought there was a heaven that everyone went to, but I didn’t think there was, like, any kind of connection between life on earth and whatever’s going on in heaven. So, like, when my grandfather died, when when people died, I imagined them, like, off in heaven, hanging out together, having a blast. But not that there was a back and forth or that there was a connection. And I I think I, you know, obviously, I eventually got there, but it was like I was kinda way there, you know, but I didn’t really I didn’t really think there was a relationship between the two so much, but now now I do.
Victoria Volk: Well, you need to talk about how that came about in the book too, and so people just have to read the book to find out. So just keep plugging the book in that way. But yeah. I and there’s like, there’s so much more I could talk about. But I know you have to get going, but I just wanna thank you for this work that you put out in the world. And again, like, even if you haven’t lost a sibling, if you’ve lost somebody else in your life, there’s something you can glean from this book. Again, I have more things that we could talk about, but I want you to give you an opportunity if you want to share something that you don’t feel you got to, that you feel is important.
Annie Sklaver Orenstein: I think I’d love to this conversation and all of your questions, and I think You’re the only I think the biggest message is just that it’s okay to grieve. It’s okay to grieve your sibling. You know? It makes sense. That you’re grieving your sibling. And, you know, I want people to know that they are allowed to that they are that they don’t need to be stomach, and they don’t need to be okay. And it’s, you know, it’s okay to also breathe. And Yeah. I think that’s the takeaway.
Victoria Volk: What comes to my mind, I get this visual of, like, you know, when you kinda shrink down and you get small because the grief around you of other people is so big and you kinda just make yourself small. And it’s almost like you just kinda go like this. Just make room for it.
Annie Sklaver Orenstein: Make room Yes. Grieve. Yes. Absolutely.
Victoria Volk: Where can people find you? Find your book? Can they connect with you all the things? I’ll put the links in the show notes, but I’ll have you share that as well.
Annie Sklaver Orenstein: Yeah. So they can find the book, always the sibling, anywhere folks are sold. And you can find me on Instagram at annie Squaver, Ornstein, my name, or annie sorenstein dot com. Yeah.
Victoria Volk: What are you working on now?
Annie Sklaver Orenstein: I don’t know. I really want to write something else and I’m trying to figure out what comes next. What’s the next idea? I have too many of them or perhaps not just not the right one. I don’t know. But working on figuring out what comes next.
Victoria Volk: I love that. I I have another I wrote a book too and a self-published though, and it’s I know I have another book in me, but it’s it hasn’t like like just landed. You know what I mean? Like Yeah. Yeah.
Annie Sklaver Orenstein: Wake up one
Victoria Volk: day and you have a book title. I was like, oh, I got a book title.
Annie Sklaver Orenstein: And this one, you know, people ask, like, how was I able to do it? Because I have a full time job in kids. And it was like, well, I but I had to like, I I don’t know how I did it. I just knew I had to do it, and I I need that. I need to figure out, you know, what’s what’s the next one that I have to write. And I’m I’m excited to figure that out.
Victoria Volk: You made it a priority. And that’s the difference between I mean, everybody has twenty four hours in the day. It’s what you prioritize in those twenty four hours. I got up before five thirty every morning. That was just my writing. Exactly. Because that was happening to me. You make time for what’s important.
Annie Sklaver Orenstein: Yes. And I need to find that next thing that matters that much because that’s also when I would write my book, but it takes a lot for me to get up early. I hate it. I kept waiting to start enjoying it or to become a morning person and who’d get to happen. But clearly, if there’s a good enough reason, I will do it. So I am I am exploring possible reason to wake up early.
Victoria Volk: Well, I look forward to hearing your thoughts on this book.
Annie Sklaver Orenstein: Thank you. Yeah. Anytime we have to be.
Victoria Volk: Thank you again. Well, stay connected online. I’m sure. So
Annie Sklaver Orenstein: Alright. Sounds good.
Victoria Volk: Remember, when you unleash your heart, you unleash your life. Much love.
Grieving Voices Guest, Grieving Voices Podcast, Podcast, season 5 |
SHOW NOTES SUMMARY:
In the quiet rustle of leaves and the gentle caress of a mountain breeze, Tiff Carson found an unexpected sanctuary. A portable chair became her throne as she nestled amidst nature’s embrace—mountains, rivers, lakes, oceans—in Victoria and Vancouver to weave tales not just with words but with her soul.
The waves whispered secrets and memories to Tiff; they took away bits of sorrow each time they retreated back into the ocean’s depths. It was here that she learned writing could be more than a craft—it was therapy.
“Give yourself grace,” an advice once enigmatic now resonated deeply within her being. On some days, grief clung like morning dew on grass blades – heavy and visible; on others, it receded quietly into shadowed corners of her mind. Through this oscillation between pain and peace, self-compassion became Tiff’s mantra.
Her voice rose above the stigma often shrouding mental health discussions as she advocated for open dialogue about generational trauma while highlighting how critical parental apologies are in healing old wounds.
Takeaways on this episode:
- Sibling grief is often overlooked but carries profound significance throughout one’s life.
- Early traumatic events can set individuals onto difficult paths; understanding these origins is crucial for empathy and support.
- Transparent communication about emotional pain within families is essential for collective healing.
Join me as we delve into these poignant topics that remind us all that while our journeys may be hard at times, they are also filled with beauty when approached with openness and vulnerability.
RESOURCES:
CONNECT:
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NEED HELP?
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If you are struggling with grief due to any of the 40+ losses, free resources are available HERE.
CONNECT WITH VICTORIA:
The Echoes of Sibling Grief and the Power of Voice
Grief is a universal experience, yet it remains one of the most isolating journeys we can embark on. Tiff Carson, an Alberta-based author, podcast host, and speaker, understands this dichotomy all too well. Through her personal narrative involving sibling grief, trauma, and mental health challenges, Tiff sheds light on how our earliest experiences with loss shape us in profound ways.
Childhood Trauma: A Silent Specter
Tiff’s first encounter with grief was not through the passing of a family member but rather through a beloved pet dog named Mitzi who met an untimely death due to poisoning by a neighbor. This event was more than just a childhood tragedy; it became the inception point for Tiff and her brother’s journey through sorrow—a path that would diverge wildly as they grew older.
In many families like Tiff’s, discussing emotions is often seen as taboo—especially for men. This cultural norm meant suppressing feelings became second nature to them. But emotional suppression has long-term effects; it doesn’t erase pain but instead allows it to fester unacknowledged.
Adulthood: Struggles With Emotional Expression
Transitioning into adulthood brought new awareness for Tiff about these ingrained habits. She recounts her struggle to stop apologizing for showing emotions—a habit rooted deep in her upbringing where vulnerability equated weakness.
Her brother Corey took another route entirely; his gentle nature clashed against their culture of emotional stoicism. His story serves as a cautionary tale about what happens when unresolved traumas are left unchecked—he turned towards addiction at an early age because he didn’t have healthier outlets or support systems available.
Uncovering Hidden Pain
A move during their childhood isolated them further from others which eventually led to Corey enduring violent episodes with their father—an incident that remained hidden until years later. These traumatic events had far-reaching consequences leading Corey down a path marred by addiction struggles and legal issues before tragically losing his life to a fentanyl overdose in 2021.
The violence inflicted upon him by their father wasn’t just physical—it was verbal too—words that acted like daggers shaping Corey’s self-perception negatively throughout his life.
Healing Through Vulnerability
Through confronting these painful memories and dynamics within her own family unit—including learning about Corey’s buried traumas only after she faced mental health struggles herself—Tiff emphasizes the importance of addressing conflicts openly and expressing emotions without shame or guilt.
She advocates strongly for parental apologies as catalysts for healing hurtful interactions between parents and children—the act itself demonstrating vulnerability that strengthens relationships while teaching valuable lessons about accountability.
Even amid estrangement caused by differing views on accountability within families—as shown by her father’s refusal to acknowledge his role in Cory’s trauma—Tiff holds out hope for reconciliation through open dialogue underpinned by understanding each other’s vulnerabilities; essential steps toward mending generational wounds.
Episode Transcription:
Victoria Volk: Good morning, good afternoon, or good evening, whatever time it is, you’re listening to this episode. Thank you for being here. My guest today is Tiff Carson. She is a passionate and inspiring author, podcast host and speaker based in Alberta, Canada. She has the unique perspective of having lived through her own complex journey of sibling grief, trauma, and mental health issues. Tiff believes when you use your voice, you create positive change for yourself and the world around you. Tiff’s goal is to inspire others by showing how she used her voice to heal. As a devoted mother of three children, TIFF is an advocate for breaking cycles of generational pain so that future generations can live healthier lives. She reminds us all that no matter what our journey looks like, it can be hard but also beautiful. Thank you so much for being here.
Tiff Carson: Thank you for having me
Victoria Volk: and for being open to sharing your story on my podcast because I know you have a podcast which is called
Tiff Carson: hard beautiful journey. And you’ve written a book called dancing in the rain,
Victoria Volk: which is not even in your bio.
Tiff Carson: Book title anyway.
Victoria Volk: Yeah. So I just wanted to pop that in here at the beginning here, and we’ll come we’ll circle back to that where people can find you and all of that at the end. But in your information that you shared with me, you you talk about the memoir and your a lot of your focus about the grief story that you wanted to share was about your brother. But what I know about grief personally and just all the stories that people have shared with me is that our grief tends to start pretty early on in our lives, in childhood. And you haven’t shared really any of that so much.
I mean, I’m sure your brother’s story has a little bit to do with that. I mean, if there’s an age gap, things like that.
Tiff Carson: But Mhmm.
Victoria Volk: What was your experience with grief as a child?
Tiff Carson: Well, the the ones that stick out for me, for sure, are my grandparents. That is Actually, before that, I lost a dog that was very, very, very big part of our family. And it was actually poisoned by one of our neighbors that absolutely despised dogs And so we were my brother and I are eighteen months apart, and then we have a younger sister that’s six years younger than me. So my brother and I were about seven and eight years old approximately, and it was our job to let our dog out. In the morning before school and to feed her. Her name was Mitsi. And and just do all the things with the dog. If we were gonna have this dog, we were responsible for it and which we loved. And so one morning, my brother let her out, took her outside, but then he came back in to finish getting ready for school. And then when he went to call her in, she was walking really really slow into the house.
And he was, like, calling for me and my mom and And so we went and right in our very back porch. She walked in the door and she literally collapsed and just died, like, right in front of our eyes. And so that was the first real like, what the heck happened and just the devastation of losing our little girl. And that was yeah, I can’t even describe how devastating it was for my brother too. Like, he was super, super close to her. He always was close with all of the dogs that he’s sewn in his life. So that was I would say that was our first big grief moment and trauma that we experienced. And then of course losing our grandparents and and seeing them deteriorate over the years and not really be themselves like some of them ended up with dementia or a form of dementia and so seeing them go from, you know, your grandparents like you knew them to not really being that was was definitely a difficult thing for us to experience. So, yeah, those were were the ones growing up for sure.
Victoria Volk: I was told to growing up that. I was too little to remember, but we had a dog that was supposedly had been poisoned too.
Tiff Carson: Oh, really? Yeah. It’s awful. It was it wasn’t just our dog. Like, it was they actually ended up having to call the police this family, this couple because they they were doing it to numerous dogs in the neighborhood. And ours was one of them. And then my parents went and got, this is crazy. So before that police were called, my parents, we waited they waited a few months for us to, you know, get used to, like, just go through the grief and stuff, and then they ended up getting another dog for us. We named her ginger. And same thing happened. But we got her to the vet before, and we brought her home, and she ran away. She was like, yeah, no. I’m not staying here. I’m not dealing with that. So, yeah, it was losing the dog and then getting another one and then her running away. And after that, we didn’t get another dog for a while. So I laugh now, but at the time it was like, this is not very good. This is sad.
Victoria Volk: So how was grief talked about in your home as growing up?
Tiff Carson: It wasn’t. Like ever. Ever. I saw my mom cry a lot growing up. But never my dad, never ever. I never saw my grandparents cry or show grief of any kind. The first time I saw my grandma cry and Joe Grieve was actually at my uncle, her son’s funeral. He passed away tragically. In a farming accident, and that was the first time I saw her outwardly grieve. And I was probably about twenty five years old then. So, like, it was it was just not shown whatsoever. It was sniff upper lip and hold it all in and be tough and that’s it. The the boys, the men were definitely held to that standard a lot more than the girls. I noticed that and I wrote about it in my book is be tough, suck it up, beat your your boy, your man. You know, those kind of words were were said. But I also saw it from the women. So it was definitely not as open to talk about the hard things as as it is now.
Victoria Volk: What impact did that have on you as you went into adulthood and experience more grief as we do in life? And and how did you see that? Maybe your brother handled it differently or did things differently from you? Like, how did you see that dynamic play out? Learning not learning about courage, right, and not talking about it, the impact that that had on each of you?
Tiff Carson: My brother was very I call him a gentle giant. He was always very open with his feelings towards certain people. And showed his emotions. Same with me. Like, I I definitely showed my emotions, but when it came to grief and I actually still catch myself doing it sometimes where I’ll start to cry and I’ll say, sorry, Sorry.
Sorry. Sorry. Sorry. Sorry. You know, and I don’t know how many times in the last even week where I’ll cry and I’ll start to say that. And then I’m like, no, I’m not sorry. I’m not sorry. And it’s taken I’m almost fifty. And it’s taken almost fifty years for me to stop apologizing for showing emotion and being okay with it. So it it’s definitely been a difficult thing to just get past the I don’t know if it’s embarrassment or or the shame of being vulnerable. I don’t know. But in the last two years, definitely since my brother passed away, I’m learning to just say screw it. Like, I’m I’m okay. With you seeing this. And I am not a pretty cryer whatsoever. And I’m definitely okay with people seeing the real me and what I’m going through and what I’m experiencing because it’s giving them the freedom, I guess, the courage to do the same thing.
Victoria Volk: What’s your brother’s name? Corey, he talked about, you know, his struggle with addiction and things like that in your in the information you shared with me. When did those things start to come to light? How old were you? And I recognized you’re only eighteen months apart. My oldest two my oldest is a son and then I have a daughter and they’re eighteen months apart. Mhmm. And I I’m reading this book right now. The author will be coming on the podcast. It’s called always a sibling, and she talks about her brother passing. But what I never really connected or thought about until reading her book was that the relationship that we have with our siblings is the longest relationship we will have with anybody. Even if that person is not in your life, it’s still there’s still an emotional bond there. Of some sort, whether it be healthier or unhealthy, there’s still that connection. And it’s the longest connection. And I personally, I think sometimes your siblings, they know more about you than anybody else because they’ve seen you through your entire life. Right? Really into the music. Yeah. So feel free to share what you wanna share about that. And
Tiff Carson: well, the tears are already starting. So It’s okay. Wow. So, yeah, he was eighteen months older than me. I wrote about that in my book as well about the sibling relationship and sibling grief just in general. That it’s under recognized. Everybody definitely reverts to the parents first, which absolutely understand that as a mom. Absolutely understand that. And then if it’s, you know, an older person, like they revert to the wife and the kids of that person. But there’s very, very few people that actually ask how you’re doing as the sibling of somebody who’s passed away and they were the closest person to you growing up for many years.
Right? And there’s lots of times where you have many siblings. So it just compounds. Right? So I definitely wanted to bring that to late in my book.
So he was eighteen months older than me, and we literally literally were attached at the hip. Growing up. Like, there’s this many pictures, but there’s this one picture. We had, like, white white white hair big blue eyes and, like, if you saw one, there was the other one right beside. And we just we lived in a small town We went everywhere together. We did everything together. And he was my best buddy. And then my sister was born when he was seven and I was six. And so she was like our little baby doll and it was just awesome having a new little sibling and but we were still connected, like super connected. We did lip synch concerts together.
We we did everything. And then we moved a few times. My dad is a musician, was a musician. And so wherever he was playing the most, in his band, we would kinda like move into that area. So we moved a few times. Usually between two locations, And the one move the one last move before everything changed was very, very hard on him and I, my brother and I, because we moved to a farm. And we were not farmers at all. And it was very isolating for us. And we we were very social kids, like we in the house the neighborhood we lived in before, moving to the farm, we were Like, there was just the neighborhood gang. Like, you know what I mean?
Like, the big neighborhood gang of kids, we would just play hide and seek and we wouldn’t we wouldn’t come home till, like, ten at night and just we would be with our friends all the time, and then we were on a farm. And it was like, what where are we? Why are we here? And it was it was a really big adjustment for us in a lot of ways. And something happened when my brother was thirteen living on that farm that I didn’t know about until three years before he died. And but something happened to me around the same time from my brother. My brother beat me up. To uphold in our kitchen on the farm. And I had no idea why, like zero idea. It just came out of nowhere and because him and I were super close. And then all of a sudden, he beat me up. And I was terrified of him after that, and I didn’t know what happened. And then, what happened after that? He used to be or that happened. He was a very talented hockey player, very good athlete. Like, he was being looked at by lots of people because he was just so good, so fast, the goal score. And then all of a sudden, like that, it just changed. And he we call it I call it in my book. He started running. He just he was he just didn’t want to be anywhere near us, nowhere near our family. He was getting into trouble. He was doing DNEs. He was getting into fights. He was he got some assault charges and it literally from thirteen till he was twenty seven. He was in and out of jail, he was constantly in trouble with the law. And that’s when he started getting addicted to drugs and alcohol. And so him beating me up and then going the direction that he was I didn’t understand why he was doing that and why that happened. And it just made this huge wedge between us. And I was so angry at him for doing what I thought he was doing to my parents and like just not just not being a good kid and like, why are you doing this? So he went one direction and I literally went the other.
And I was like, because around town in this small community that we lived in, our last name is Carson. So he would they would say, oh, that Carson kid. Oh, that Carson kid. Just like his dad, that carson kid. Right? And so, like, that was what I heard around town and I made it my mission to not be another Carson kid. I was gonna be a different Carson kid. And so he went that direction and I went to the overachiever. Like, I am going to show you all that I am not like him, and that has literally moved in to my life in so many ways. Like, it just I’m an overachiever still to this day. And so Yeah. That that’s how the the addiction came around was at that time of his life, and it it continued on for the rest of his life until he passed away and he passed away of a of a fentanyl overdose in twenty twenty one.
Victoria Volk: One change. Right?
Tiff Carson: Mhmm.
Victoria Volk: We never know what’s gonna change the trajectory of our lives. Yep. We’re just, you know, in the the ripples of the decisions that we make as parents. Right? And the impact that that has. And cause and effect has been something that’s really come up a lot for me lately. We learn that concept as young children, you know, you touch the burner, the hot burner on the stove, you’re gonna get burned. Right? Nope. There’s a cause and effect. No. Now I’m not gonna touch the burner because I’m gonna get my hand burned. But we never really why that same principle to our lives really. We don’t think about the impact of our words. We don’t think about, you know, the cause and effect. Of our words and our actions and our choices and our decisions and how that affects everybody else in our lives. Mhmm. Are you open to sharing? What what it was that he was projecting so much of his anger out? On you and the rest of the family and
Tiff Carson: Yeah. It’s I wrote about it in a book and And it’s amazing how when these things happen, how it is a learning lesson for me now as a parent and how it’s changed by parenting. It was something that happened between my dad and my brother. So my sister and I and my mom had gone out of town for a few days. And my brother stayed home with my dad to help him around the farm and my dad was playing in the band in the town that we lived in, and he asked my brother to stay home and not go out. But my brother, like I said, he hated the farm. He hated the isolation. He hated it with a passion. And So he got on his bike, and he rode his bike to a nearby community where some of his friends live. And he got a ride home from some people with his bike, and the lights were off when he got home. So he thought he got home before my dad did. And when he went in the house, the lights came on. That’s my dad’s m l’s sitting in the dark because that’s what his parents did. And the lights came on and my dad was there and From what my brother has told me and my mom and a trauma therapist, he pummeled him. He beat him into oblivion where he could hardly even walk up the stairs to his bedroom. And when he got up the next morning, he said that my dad didn’t even bat an eye when he saw his black eyes. And he said that my dad said if you’re not going to respect what I have to say and listen to me, then you can just leave. I’ll pay you and you can just leave. And, yeah, when I it looks like So I’ve done this so three years before he died from my mom. And literally as she was telling me this story. At first, I was like, there’s no way my dad did that. There’s no way. Like I I just instantly went to denial. But in my soul, it was like she was handing the puzzle piece. Like, here you go. Because not long after that happened to my brother, my brother beat me up. And he was so angry at me and my little sister for not getting the same treatment as him. And literally, that’s when he started running. He was like, hey, he doesn’t want me here, so I’m just gonna go. I’m gonna go. I’m gonna run. He told me to leave. So that’s what happened. There was another incident couple years actually before that that he actually got severely beaten by my grandpa in front of all of us. So a lot of a lot of physical violence where he felt like he wasn’t loved by the male, influences in his life, and that’s very, very devastating to the foundation of a boy. But why I say that’s a lesson for me now is parenting is so hard. All three of my kids were IVF, babies. It took ten years to get them. Ten very long years to get them, and all three of them were diagnosed with ADHD and ODD. Oppositional defiant disorder. And so they have been a very difficult parenting journey, very difficult. So I get the the difficulty of parenting to my core. Like, I get it. And even with the difficulties and things that are said or done in the heat of a moment when you’re angry, when you’re upset, all of that. The thing that I’ve learned from all of this from my brother’s journey is that how you handle the after. How you handle when you’ve done or said something that could have hurt somebody else, like your children, Take the time you need. First, take the time you need to decompress and or walk away or breathe or something. But then come back and actually have a conversation with them. And I have done that so many times since I’ve learned about my brother’s drama. And I know it is making a difference with my kids and my relationship with them. Because I I, like, I wrote about it in a book. There was one morning where my boys were just so so disrespectful for to me, we are on our way to a doctor’s appointment for for one of them and They weren’t listening, they weren’t talking back. It was just it was a horrible morning. And I said the same things my dad did. I said, if you’re not gonna listen to me, then you’re not gonna live here. Get out of my house. I said the same words my dad did. And I went into my room to get ready, and I was so mad at myself. I was so mad that I chose those words to say to my kids, but I also gave myself grace that you know, this is hard. And I came out of the room and they were balling, like getting on their backpacks and trying to get their shoes on, and they were crying. And one of my boys said, you’re the worst mom ever who tells their kids to leave And the other one was looking at me with, like, literally tears streaming down his face. He’s like, where are we supposed to go? I don’t know where we’re supposed to go. And like just balling. And we get in the car.
And before I started driving, I just turned they were sitting in the back and I turned around and I just said, I am so sorry for what I said to you. I didn’t mean what I said. But I want you to know why I said it and why I got to that point because this was going on. And I said, but I never should have send those words to you, and I hope that you forgive me. And both of them were just like, we’re so sorry, mom.
Like, we know what we were doing was not Right? And and one of my boys said, you know, mom, it’s okay if people cry. Like, I know it is, buddy. And it’s okay if you cry right now too, and he started crying again. And then my other boy, their twins.
He said, yeah, who cares if people see it and say anything? So I was just like, good for you, like, good for recognizing that. There is nothing wrong with showing vulnerability. And since that day, I that’s what I do. If there’s something that has come up and there’s something that was hurtful, I address it sooner than later because all my dad had to do all he had to do was say, sorry, That’s it.
That is it. And it would have changed their whole relationship. So all it takes is I’m sorry. We were both Ryan.
Victoria Volk: How old are your children?
Tiff Carson: Fifteen year old daughter and eleven year old twin boys.
Victoria Volk: I recently listened to a meditation that has you imagining your inner child? That’s hard. Mhmm. Mhmm. Like, what would you say to your younger self, you know? Mhmm. And I, like, feel this, like, for your brother, like this, sadness of not feeling wanted It’s that indifference. I think that’s almost I don’t know if it’s worse. They say in psychology, they say it’s worse. Like, Yeah.
Tiff Carson: Yeah. So when I learned about his trauma, Well, in all of these things, but there’s even more, but those are the that’s the big ones or some of the big ones. But it it it was I literally because I was going through my own mental health challenges with my, like, going through in in fertility and our kids and I I had a complete mental breakdown. And it was around the same time where I learned about this. And I was walking on a beach in North Carolina. I went to a mom’s retreat, and I was walking on a beach in North Carolina, and I just walking by myself and I was like, k. If I can give myself grace and love myself with all of this stuff that I’m going through, I absolutely can give my brother that same, and because he’s experienced way more than me. And I wrote this in the book. I chose to love him through it. Everything that he was going through, everything that he was still experiencing with his addictions, which had not gone away.
They were getting worse. And for those who have known an addict, had a family member that’s an addict, it is a very difficult relationship. Very and so me choosing to love him through it. Was a huge step. It was huge just based on everything that had happened over the years. But when I tell you, it’s quite good. When I made that decision, he could feel it. He could actually feel the change. He could feel it in how I looked at him, how I talked to him, how I just sat with him, how everything everything changed when I made that decision, to love him through it. And our relationship was immediately back to when we were little kids. Immediately because he could feel it, I could feel it, and then it’s, like, I need to be there for you. I’m gonna be there for you, and I’m never gonna leave you. And, yeah, I’m just I’m so grateful that he chose to use his voice. He was the one who told my mom about what happened to him because none of us knew. None of us knew what happened to him and why his life went that way. And he chose to tell my mom, and then my mom chose to tell me. And if he wouldn’t have done that, we wouldn’t have gotten to where we were before he died. And so he he gave me the biggest gift. All of us the biggest gift by sharing what what happened to him and being vulnerable. I have no regrets now with how our relationship was when he passed away because it was beautiful.
Victoria Volk: Where is your dad and all of those?
Tiff Carson: My dad just read the book recently. During the three years when I found out about what happened, I had a hard time understanding him. I didn’t and still have never stopped loving my dad because he’s my dad. And like I said, I understand the challenges of parenting and I I give him grace and all of that. Right? But but I still have a really hard time with him not accepting and admitting and acknowledging the pain and the trauma that changed my brother’s life. My dad will not acknowledge it. And he will go to his grave with not fully acknowledging what was done, what was said, and that’s heartbreaking. His stance. I just talked to him two weeks ago about it because he was very angry at me for the book even though I asked him repeatedly for his side of the story repeatedly asked him for his side. Because there is always two sides. And he just says it’s the way that they were raised, and he my brother was not behaving was not listening. And my brother was out of control and all of this kind of stuff. And I can’t change his mind. I can’t make him acknowledge anything, and I I have to come to peace with that. Or I won’t have a relationship with my dad either. But I am very okay with me sitting in the hard and talking things out and just saying, okay, this is where we’re at. I know your mat like, I went and saw them two weeks ago, and you could tell he was very angry at me, very and he was just gonna I call it sweeping it under the rug. He was just gonna sleep it under the rug, like nothing. Not talking about it. And he was sitting on one of their swings. Like, it’s a two seater. And I just said, so may I come and sit beside you? And he’s like, sure. So I went and sat beside him and and I just I was vulnerable and I just said, okay.
Let’s talk about it. You’re obviously upset with me for what I wrote, so let’s let’s talk. And so he wasn’t going to it first, and then he did, and he was upset with what I wrote and wish that he would’ve I would’ve given I would’ve asked him his side of the story. I’m like, pretty sure I did many times. And that I didn’t talk about my mom’s side of the family in the book? Just his side? And I was trying to explain to him that that none of the things that happened to me and my brother happened at the hands of my mom’s family. So talking about my mom’s family’s issues, wouldn’t have related to my brother and I in our journey. So yeah, I understand that I talked about the Carson side, but that’s because stuff happened with the Carson side. That changed our relationship and changed people’s lives. And when I talk about I didn’t wanna be a Carson kid, I went through a divorce two years ago. It was just made official in May of this year. And I have been working tirelessly to get my name back. To be a Carson. And I told him, I wouldn’t be doing this. If I didn’t love the cars to pick me because it’s not easy. To go back to your maid and maid here in Canada anyways. And I said that’s how much I love the Carson family. I just don’t love some of the things that happened in the Carson family. So that’s kind of where our relationship is at right now. It’s strained, but I’m okay with that. Because It took a year and a half to write this book. And there was many times where I almost stopped writing. And I kept hearing no. Keep going. Keep going. Put it all in. Put it all in. And I know. How many people that’s helping already, and that’s worth it to me.
Victoria Volk: Comes back to the cause and effect. And perhaps maybe you don’t see yet how this may unlock something for your father. Credit. You know, it’s again, you you kinda touched on it on the information you shared, but this generational trauma, the generational belief systems, and the generational patterns, and we, I think, subconsciously, pass on to our kids unintentionally.
Tiff Carson: Yeah.
Victoria Volk: And clearly, there is something your dad is holding on to.
Tiff Carson: Oh, yes. And it’s in the book as well. The things that my dad experienced.
Victoria Volk: Oh, so you know?
Tiff Carson: Yeah.
Victoria Volk: Okay.
Tiff Carson: It’s in the book as well. Not in great detail, but it was more so at the hands of his mom than his dad. He actually went to live with his grandparents because it was such a bad relationship. He says it was also because they didn’t have enough room. There were all of the kids. There were six kids. It was a small house. His grandparents lived across the street. He’s like, I’m just gonna go live there. But there was times where he lived or stayed at the church with the nuns. It was yeah. He he had a very very hard upper need as well. This violence and and, like I said, sweeping things under the rug. We’re not talking about it. We are not talking about it. We are not dealing with this. Nothing happened. My grandma, my dad’s mom, had many mental health challenges. There was many times where she wouldn’t come out of her room. And they had to fend for themselves. So a lot of stuff and he’s just choosing to not go there. And and that’s his choice. And I I cannot that’s what I’ve come to realize is I cannot force anybody to do their own work, but I can do my own. And I’m going to continue doing my own and showing other people how I’m doing the work on myself and if it inspires them to do the same, fantastic. But I I cannot force anybody anymore. All I can do is my own thing, my own work.
Victoria Volk: You shared how you decided that you were going to love your brother. Through it. Have you given any thought to what that would look like if you chose to do that with your father?
Tiff Carson: I have chosen to load him through it. Actually, when I found out that he had read it, and that he was angry at me. At first, my initial reaction, knee jerk reaction was, like, Well, screw you. Like, you you know, like, I was just angry back at him. And that was that only last maybe a day. And but I was very angry at him for some of the things that he was saying to me and then I actually heard I I hear my brother often, his spirit. And I I heard him say, Love them through it. Love them through it. And I made the decision two weeks ago, two and a half weeks ago. I’m gonna love them through it because I kid. He was a little boy too. That experience and really hard things. And that’s my generational trauma is hard. And But my my whole goal, my whole purpose, I know, is to shine a light on it. And do like, what I’m doing with my kids is let’s talk about this stuff let’s work through it. Let’s stop sweeping stuff under the rug. Let’s get to a place where Your heart is okay. Before we move on. Because I’ve seen what it’s done to my dad, and I’ve seen what it’s done to my brother. And I don’t want that for my kids. I don’t want that for your kids. I don’t want that for anybody’s kids because I lived with it. And I wouldn’t want anybody’s life to play out the way that my brothers did in some respects. He did have many good moments in his life. But the hard parts, I wouldn’t want that for anybody. Because it was very, very, very difficult for him.
Victoria Volk: There is this thought that I think in psychology that young girls, women tend to marry someone like their father. That can be good or bad. Right? Had you married someone who had those qualities like your father?
Tiff Carson: That’s a interesting question. In some respects, yes, and then some no. My ex husband, who’s a very good father in terms of, like, always wanting to do stuff with them and is very active in their lives. And but he’s also a non talker. Let’s see. There is nothing to see here, folks. That’s not, like, what? You wanna talk? Oh, no. Okay. So, like, those kind of similarities are definitely there. And that was hard for me, especially over the last ten, eight, to ten years as I was, like, starting to, like, you know, I need to talk about this stuff or I’m gonna neither this is not gonna end well. And I wasn’t getting any any of it back and returned. And that was very difficult on our marriage for sure.
Victoria Volk: With the diagnosis of the children. I imagine that that brought up a lot of feelings from the past. Of the anger that you witnessed in the home. Did so did you have this I mean, did you have this United Front with your spouse to work through those struggles? Or do you feel like those were some of the things that your marriage just couldn’t. Where you couldn’t come together?
Tiff Carson: No. The so we we tried for five years before we ended up finally getting our daughter after we were married. But we started the fertility process one year after we were married because you have to wait the year here in Canada. If it’s not working. And he was very supportive in that whole journey to the point where my body actually was they they said that it was I was thirty How old was I thirty one ish at thirty thirty one when I started the fertility program, and my body was acting like mid forties. It just was not. It wasn’t doing what they thought it was going to do. I was on the highest dose possible of in fertility of IVF drugs. And I was still not producing follicles like I should have been there was one point where there was so much blood work and so many ultrasound that my husband ended up not going to all of them just because there were so many. But on this one particular day, he decided to come. He said, no, I’m gonna come with you. And if he didn’t come that day, we wouldn’t have our daughter. Because they did their normal blood work and ultrasound, and then they they normally you just go home and go back a couple days later. But this day, they said, Kate, we need you to meet across the room in that boardroom. And I knew it was not good. And the doctors came in and nurses and they said, so it’s not looking good for this cycle. You’re not producing enough molecules at this point where you should be, and you either can stop the cycle now and wait about three months because you have to wait for your system to get back to a little bit of normalcy. Or we keep going and we try for the best and see if there’s any changes in the next couple of days. And I was so exhausted because this was our second second attempt at In vitro. And we had already done all of the other stuff, like IUI’s intrauterine and semination stuff.
We had already done all of those. And I was gonna just say no more. I’m done. And James, my ex husband said, no, we’re going. We’re gonna keep going.
And I just I know it’s gonna work. We’re gonna keep going. And we got three follicles and we got enough embryos and my daughter. It happened. We got our daughter. So he was definitely a rock for me during all of that. When we got when we had her, it was, like, the biggest blessing in the world. And then but we didn’t have any more embryos left. And so if we were gonna do it again, we’d have to start all over again. And it’s very expensive. And we just we’re happy with having her daughter. And I don’t know what about when she was three years old, we started talking again and said, do you wanna try it again? And his parents loaned us the money, and we started again. And this time, I don’t know if, like, things cleared up down there or what, but it went better than the first time. And we ended up with Twin Boys. And so it was but it was hard. It was ten years. So there’s four and a half years between our daughter and our sons. And but it’s very hard on a marriage. In the respect that you you have the expectation that your bodies are supposed to do these things. Naturally, that your failure if you don’t. And him and I are both extreme high achievers my overachiever tendency came flying through, and it was just very hard to wrap my head around the back that I couldn’t become a mom the natural way. And it was for him too. Like, there was many times where he would say something off the cuff, like, Yeah. Well, like, I’m not able to have a kid normally, like, everybody else and and, like, a man going in and doing that thing and in a fertility clinic is not romantic for one thing. What’s leverage? So, yeah, it’s very hard on marriages, very difficult on marriages. And them to go through that journey of just trying to get them here. And then to have the parenting struggles that we’ve had with them, that’s when I I had my my mental breakdown. I was just so so angry as God. I remember hiding behind the clothes in my closet, hiding from my kids, because I was so done. I was just done with everything. And I just said, why why? Did it take ten years to get them for us to not enjoy, be able to do them? Because it was not enjoyable whatsoever. And while I was saved in that closet, I saw a fork, like a fork in the road. In my mind, I saw it for it. And it was checkout. I completely checkout. I’m like, as in not be here anymore or get help because I was that far gone. And I sat in there for a very long time and cried and was very angry. And when I finally came out of there, I phoned my mom And I said, I need you to come and help you. And she did. Right away that night. And I went to my therapist And I took three months off of work, and I took care of myself.
And in that therapy session, one of them, my therapist said, you know you’re supposed to do something with this pain. Right? You’re supposed to do something with your journey. And I didn’t know what she meant by that. But it’s stuck in my brain. And then it came to me over time. And I was like, I’m supposed to talk about this. Supposed to talk about this. Alright. And so that’s how my podcast came to me. Hard beautiful journey is sharing our story. That’s how it started. Was sharing our journey through infertility and our parenting struggles with kids with ADHD and OCD and everything that goes into that. And I honestly thought that before I did it, I sat down with James, my ex, and I I had written everything out and I read it to him. But I said, are you okay? If I do this, if we share this, and he was completely on board, completely. And I had the thought if I share all of this and that’s all that happens is I share that and nobody listens or nobody cares. Cool. It’s out there. And that isn’t what happened. Everybody was like, oh my lord. Thank you for sharing that. And I’m now at ninety episodes and still going. And I’m I’m talking with other people who are sharing their hard beautiful dirty and who are sharing their stories and being vulnerable in helping one other person in the world by doing so. So that’s how that all came to be.
Victoria Volk: And now you’re on my podcast.
Tiff Carson: And now I’m here. So I’m on a break from my podcast right now for this emerge. And the reason why is because I wanted to share my story on other people’s podcasts and be a guest for once. So I have been enjoying being on this side of the microphone and being asked the questions in a different way to also make me think about different parts my story because it’s an ongoing healing journey every day. And so, like, you bringing up these questions to me is helping me heal more. And even though I’m crying, I see those tears since healing tears. Not anything to be ashamed of.
Victoria Volk: How long ago was that time in the closet?
Tiff Carson: Twenty eighteen. It was no. Sorry. Twenty seventeen. Twenty seventeen, and it was twenty eighteen that I found out about my brother and his stuff. So twenty seventeen, I was going through a lot of therapy. Really working on my own healing journey, and that when and then into early twenty eighteen is when I went to that mom’s retreat in North Carolina. And and I had just found out about my brother’s stuff as well. So it was a lot I was processing a lot of that stuff with my brother and my dad through therapy as well because it did bring him up. What happened between me and my brother that helped me understand our journey. So, yeah, that two year period was pretty, pretty difficult. But it’s it’s just gotten it’s an interesting thing because it it was it’s gotten easier, but also hard because of the grief of losing him and then my marriage ending. But it’s because of the work that I’m doing on myself that I know that’s why I’m getting through these things. Otherwise, I would not be here like at all because it was so difficult before I started getting therapy and talking with people and just being vulnerable. And hearing other people’s stories and sharing experiences and knowing I’m not alone in all of those things have helped me get through these grief journeys because if I would have kept it to myself and just sat here and did nothing, It would have been not a good good situation.
Victoria Volk: Where are things at now with your ex husband and the kids and the dynamics of all of that? Like, how how have you navigated all of that?
Tiff Carson: Well, that is a very good question. Well, Trying to decide how much to share. So there was a lot of rejection that I faced in our marriage from my ex husband. A lot of rejections intimately and connection lines. And there was a point when my daughter was one years old that I almost left him because it had been eleven years of it. And I I know someone that stems from the infertility and, like, the failure side of it and but it would it just wasn’t getting any better. And finally in when my brother passed away. Things hadn’t been really good for about a year before he passed away. But when my brother passed away, James gave me a couple of big hugs to comfort me. And I realized I hadn’t been in his arms like that.
For many years. And I I was like, well, why did it take losing my brother for this to happen. So that after he died, I was just like, what? Why. You know? And that’s when I my brother dying was a wake up call for me. It’s like life is too short. Life is too short. And I don’t think our kids ever saw us hug. Kiss, hold hands, maybe hold hands, maybe once. And that’s it. We were roommates. Taking care of their kids quite literally. And I tried numerous times over the twenty years that we were together to get us to a place where we could be intimate and connect connected and all of it. I don’t know how many times, countless times. And things would get good for a couple weeks and be kind of like, hey, let’s just shut her up. Let’s satisfy her. You know? And then then it stopped. And it was just as a cycle and it just kept happening over and over and over again. And then my brother died and I was like, no, I need more from this. And so I asked for a trial separation. And him and I went to marriage counseling. And we went separately. We went together. And our therapist said, in this three month trial, let’s try it for three months, I need you to focus on yourself, only yourself. And nobody else, no there’s no third parties, nothing. And he chose not to do that. So that was really hard. Again with the rejection. And so but I also made it. I wanted my kids to not deal with any of that. I wanted them to have parents that weren’t fighting, that weren’t you know, mad at each other. And so I I that’s where I did shove stuff. And I I was I said, k. I’m gonna be I’m gonna be friends with them at least. And that was working for a bit, but then I realized that it was actually harming my healing process. And just recently over the last couple months, I put in some pretty firm boundaries that no. I no. You have your new life, and I have mine And the only thing that we need to talk about is our kids. And that’s it. And maybe one day, we’ll get back to that place where we’re friends, but not right now. And that’s very, very hard for me because It’s really hard for people to understand this much. The one thing that we did have at our marriage was a friendship. We had a really good friendship, and now I don’t have that, and that’s what I miss the most. So a lot of grief. A lot, a lot of grief over the last three years. A lot of tears. A lot of guttural crying like where I’m like, you know, the type crying where it’s like, an animal was coming out of you. But a lot of really good days too. A lot of really good days. And so when I’m having the low moments? I know I call it my roller co I have the craziest rollercoaster. I swear to God. It’s God. So many twists and turns and ups and downs. And I’m also going to prepare a bed and pause, so there’s a head too. But I know that when I’m hitting that low on my roller coaster, I know I’m coming out of it a lot sooner, a lot quicker than I used to. And I can feel that. I’m not stained in those little moments as long as I was before, and it’s because I’m talking. And if I need to and I’m writing a lot and I’m breathing, I’ve started doing breath work. And I would meditate as well, but the breath work has really, really helped me. I am walking like I have never walked in my life. Like, it is crazy how much walking I am doing. And it is helping my moods, my mindset. I cry when I walk. I smile when I walk. You name it. I do it all. I listened to music. And, yeah, it’s It’s been a crazy three years.
Victoria Volk: How are the kids doing?
Tiff Carson: They I like I said, I talked to them all the time. All the time. And At first, it was very difficult for them. But I am proud of James and I or that period of time in the initial separation and and all of that where we did have the United front where we were both there for them. And being friends because it it was an easier transition for them and easier change for them in some regards. In some instances, I think it also confused them. And when I knew and felt that they were confused, I talked to them. Because I can see and feel the confusion. And I am not even exaggerating. I talk to them all the time. If I feel like they’re having a hard day, with something or when they’re moving between his house and my house. Like, I give them on the day that it happens and they’re coming back to me, I give them so much grace if there’s something that they’re, you know, in a bad mood or because what happened actually when we separated is we we were so amicable that we bought a condo together for him and I to move in and out of. Every week and our kids would stay home in the family home until we sold it or until we made the decision that it was going to happen. We are gonna get a divorce. And so him and I were moving back and forth or six months. And so we got that experience of moving. And I’m so grateful for that. Because it gave me so much compassion and empathy for that aspect of my kid’s life now that you don’t really get settled. And I yeah, it it’s not not easy for them to do that. Right? And so when they come back to me, when they go back to him, when they come back to me anyway, I give them that time to adjust, and then I check-in with them and, yeah, this very open communication with them.
Victoria Volk: Since that experience of you moving back and forth, informed you of how hard that can be. What kind of decision did you come to together then as far as joint custody and visitation on that.
Tiff Carson: We have fifty-fifty. So we switch every week. Yeah. We have them for one week at a time and we’re very, very, very good co parents. That is even with the boundaries that I’ve put in place and the distancing myself from him in the friendship way, we are really good co parents.
Victoria Volk: It’s great to hear. Really good and
Tiff Carson: I hope to god that never changes. Ever because I just know and seen when it isn’t that way, and I I also know why it can’t be that way if some of the people in the relationship are not cooperative or just narcissists or whatever. Right? There’s a variety of reasons why it can’t be that way. If anything out of our infertility journey and our parenting struggles in it, those moments where I was, like, mad at God for this, I’m grateful that we have this parenting, co parenting.
Relationship. I’m grateful for that because those times where There’s maybe only been three times in the last couple of years where I was just so angry about him. For something that he did or said, and then I didn’t talk to him for a week. Try parenting and organizing three kids schedules with sports and schools and all of it, and you’re not talking with them. It’s impossible. And So, yeah, I just I made the decision and I told him everything is for the kids. And I will strive to be the best co parent with you because they deserve it. And we deserve it after how hard we work to get them here.
Victoria Volk: You mentioned how you were angry with God a couple of times. Where do you sit with that now?
Tiff Carson: I’m at a place of peace with it and understanding. And it was literally from what my therapist said, when she said, you know, you’re supposed to do something with this. There’s a purpose behind it. And when I finally understood that, that I was supposed to help other people with this stuff, and that everything is a lesson and that we’re meant to help each other. I’m not supposed to keep all of this to myself and just suffer in silence. I was meant to help somebody else with my story. And when I finally understood that, I was like, okay, I got it. Got it. God. Alright, but I could use about five minutes off now. Give me a break and then talk to anybody. Just give me a break from the grief for a while. And I think he has for a while. Oh, yeah. That’s growing up.
Victoria Volk: I think we’re on the same mission, and my story kinda came to be too because you know, it’s one thing to to hold it in. And then once you start using your voice, like you said, it’s healing to hear other people’s stories and to share parts of your own with others. And so I might podcast is called craving voices. Mhmm. You know, people can come on and use their voice because I’ve personally learned that that is a way to heal. Mhmm. And process and, like, as we’re talking about it, we’re kind of we’re processing it. There’s always something else to discover and we don’t connect those dots and we don’t recognize those things when Our lips are sealed.
Tiff Carson: Nope. Absolutely.
Victoria Volk: Then it’s our mind and our ego. That’s just run-in
Tiff Carson: the show. Mhmm.
Victoria Volk: We’re not connecting with our hearts. So
Tiff Carson: Yeah. Soon as you connect with your heart, it all changes.
Victoria Volk: And it’s game on. That’s really hard.
Tiff Carson: It’s game on and it’s like, okay. Here we go. But it’s worth it in my opinion.
Victoria Volk: So what has your grief taught you?
Tiff Carson: It has taught me that I am. I don’t wanna use the word strong. I am really, I’m strong, but I am love. That’s what it’s taught me. Is that I know how to load.
Victoria Volk: Even when it’s hard. Even when it’s tough. Tell me the significance of
Tiff Carson: four forty four. My brother. The moment he died has been showing me four, four, four, four, in the most craziest places. I believe in angel numbers and angel signs and Yeah. From the moment he died, I have been seen four, four, four, four. And Not long after he died, after his funeral, I went to Texas for a work conference. And I was driving on the interstate. My Corpus Christi in this billboard. One of those electronic ones, and all seven, four, four came up on the mailboard. That’s it. I’m, like and then on the radio, his songs came on just, like, right away. Like and that’s when I was, like, So at first, I I didn’t understand the four four four, like, when he first passed. But then when that happened, I was like, oh, that’s your sign for me. Okay. Alright. Fine. And now it’s like everywhere. Like, I actually have screenshots on my phone when I wake up. And I checked my phone and it’s four four four license plates. On the yeah.
Everywhere. Everywhere.
Victoria Volk: I am there’s a website I I I believe in that stuff too. And there’s a website that I I looked it up. And you probably have two, I’m sure. Yes. But what I looked up and what it right says is that angel number four four four brings a message that all as well. Trust that you are on your correct life path and are doing a great job.
Tiff Carson: He is with me, guided me through this whole thing. He was when I was writing the book too. I felt him with me every everywhere when I wrote. Like, I would actually take my I write if I tried to write in my house or No. No.
No way. And I things would distract me. I’d have laundry to do. You name it. Right?
I No. A good show was on. So I would grab this chair of mine, like a beach chair kind of thing. And I would take it out to the mountains and I would sit in the mountains, buy a river, or buy a lake, and I would write. And he was always with me. Always. Like, I can feel him with me. And I would write by I went out to the ocean. I went out to Victoria and Vancouver, and I wrote by the ocean. And how I would describe my writing at some point was the waves when they were coming in were bringing stories to me. They were bringing memories and they were bringing, like, all of our childhood stuff. And, like, it was, like, I was typing and they were, like, bringing them in. And then when they were going out, it was taking all the sadness and all of the pain. And it was just kinda like this in and out. And I have goosebumps right now because that’s how it was working for me. So if I ever couldn’t if I was having a writer’s block or couldn’t get through a part of the book. I would grab my laptop and my my chair and I would head out to the mountains and Yeah. It just came and water and nature was so healing for me. In my writing journey. And when I write my next book? Because I know I’m meant to write another one. I will definitely do the same thing because that’s what worked for me.
Victoria Volk: I love that. Thank you for sharing that. What is the best piece of advice you had received other than, you know, you have to do something with this pain. Mhmm. What was the best piece of advice you received while you were going through all this? And he lost a friendship too, but is that aside from your x?
Tiff Carson: Yes. And that one I’m not quite ready to talk about yet. That one will be definitely in the second bucket. But the best piece of advice, I think, I got was honestly, it was give yourself grace. And First, I didn’t know what that meant.
And I was just like, what does that mean? Give myself grace. And now I find myself saying that took third people, and I actually just made a post about it the other day. It was give yourself grace, and then give yourself more grace, and then give yourself more grace. Because life can be really, really hard, really, really hard.
And you I got up. I got out out of bed and I had a shower and I brushed my teeth and some days, I don’t feel like doing any of that because I’m I would be in a ball crying. Right? Give yourself greats that you’re doing the best that you can. Some days are harder than others. And not to beat yourself up if you’re having a low day. If you don’t feel like walking or or sizing or eating well, or any of the things where you feel you’re feeling? Just give yourself grace and get up and try again.
Victoria Volk: I feel like you shared a lot that I think will resonate with my listeners. But is there anything that you feel you didn’t get to talk about or something you didn’t get to say that you would like to share here at the end?
Tiff Carson: I think I think the thing that I would always wanna say is that no matter what you go through and things that could hurt you or as long as there’s love in your heart or yourself first and foremost, that is what will get you through these hard times. You can love other people, and and I do. I love everybody, including my dad, including my ex, I have love for them. I love them. But if I don’t love myself, it is a much harder journey. And I am absolutely falling in love with me. So
Victoria Volk: I’d say that’s also another thing that grief has taught you. Yes. How to do?
Tiff Carson: Yes. It has taught me how to fall in love with myself. And I’m very grateful for that. And what gives you hope for the future. I have a lot of hope for that future. Like I said, there’s days where I was in the fetal position and just guttural crying. Right? And then there’s days where I’m like, really, really, really excited or what’s to come? Like, I I I have so much that I wanna do and so many people that I wanna talk to and so many places that I wanna see. That’s what gives me hope is that I have that excitement. I have that desire to want to do those things. And if I didn’t have that excitement and that desire, I think I would be a lot more, like, I don’t know, sad, depressed, and all of those kind of but I do I have a lot of excitement for my future. For me, for my kids, for all of it.
Victoria Volk: That’s wonderful. I love that. You know that that for you? I love that for your kids. Yes. Because if you don’t have hope, where’s theirs? Exactly.
Tiff Carson: And I know I used to put them before anything. Anything. And especially with the challenges that we faced with them with schools and doctors and everything. And I literally put them first. And I stopped doing that.
And I put myself first. And I’m taking care of myself first and my well-being and my mental health. And it is helping them because I am getting better. I am tapier. I am more energetic now. I am like all of the things. And by taking care of my cell first, it’s benefiting them.
Victoria Volk: Would you say that that is your advice to parents who are raising children with ADHD and ODD? Absolutely. Because the way that I was doing it before
Tiff Carson: it put me behind the clothes in my closet. And
Victoria Volk: breaking you.
Tiff Carson: Looking for a way out. And I was completely broken completely broken. And it’s when I decided to get help from my self and take care of myself first. That’s when it all started to change. So highly recommend. I understand it’s hard to think that you have time to take care of yourself first when you’re dealing with those kind of things. I’ve been there. I have three of them. Who all of them were challenging are still challenging some days, and I didn’t think I would survive. I quite literally didn’t think I would survive parenting them. And it’s when I made that choice to Take care of me is when it all it all started to get better slowly. Very slowly. But I could see the light. And it gave me hope and I just kept going and going and going.
Victoria Volk: Comes back to cause and effect.
Tiff Carson: Mhmm. Mhmm. Absolutely nuts.
Victoria Volk: Where can people find you if they would like to connect with you and find your book and all the things?
Tiff Carson: I am on social media, so Instagram and Facebook at I m tip carson. And my website is tip carson dot com. And my book dancing and rain is on Amazon, and my podcast is hard, beautiful journey, and you could find that anywhere, Apple Podcasts, Spotify, you need it. It’s on all of them.
Victoria Volk: Thank you so much for sharing. So openly and vulnerability as you did, And I have no doubts that anyone listening to this. There’s a part of your story that will resonate with them.
Tiff Carson: Thank you so much for having me and allowing me to process some my healing, some my grief again.
Victoria Volk: Thank you. Thank you. And remember, when you unleash your heart, you unleash your life. Much love.
Grieving Voices Podcast, season 5 |
SHOW NOTES SUMMARY:
Dive into the depths of grief, joy, and the paradox of emotions with Yvonne Caputo on Grieving Voices this week. From personal tales to professional insights, learn how attentive listening can transform relationships and provide peace in life’s transitions.
Yvonne reflects on personally challenging life transitions that led her to therapy as she grappled with feelings of loss. Her journey emphasizes not just the grand losses but also those smaller ones that cumulatively shape our lives.
Episode Highlights:
The Paradox of Emotions: Yvonne talks about containing paradoxes—how we can experience joy in sorrow, teaching us valuable lessons about mental health and resilience.
Storytelling & Healing: Listen to how conversations with her father about his WWII experiences helped unearth latent PTSD and transformed their relationship by simply offering an attentive ear.
End-of-Life Wishes: Discover why discussing end-of-life preferences is crucial as Caputo recounts honoring her father’s wishes for a peaceful passing versus the traumatic hospital death of her mother without known wishes.
Therapeutic Practices: Learn from Caputo’s approach to providing comfort in therapy—validating experiences without judgment—and its impact on elderly individuals in caregiving settings.
From dealing with personal loss to facilitating meaningful dialogues around mortality, this episode is a testament to the healing power of being heard.
RESOURCES:
CONNECT:
_______
NEED HELP?
- National Suicide Prevention Lifeline: 1-800-273-8255
- Crisis Text Line provides free, 24/7 support via text message. Text HOME to 741741 to connect with a trained Crisis Counselor
If you are struggling with grief due to any of the 40+ losses.
Exploring Grief and Connection: Yvonne Caputo on Therapeutic Listening
In the latest episode of Grieving Voices, we dive deep into a heartfelt conversation with psychotherapist and author Yvonne Caputo. She shares her profound insights on grief, loss, and the magic woven through truly listening to one another’s stories.
Caputo reflects on personally challenging life transitions that led her to therapy as she grappled with feelings of loss. Her journey emphasizes not just the grand losses but also those smaller ones that cumulatively shape our lives.
🔹 The Paradox of Emotions: Yvonne talks about containing paradoxes—how we can experience joy in sorrow, teaching us valuable lessons about mental health and resilience.
🔸 Storytelling & Healing: Listen to how conversations with her father about his WWII experiences helped unearth latent PTSD and transformed their relationship by simply offering an attentive ear.
🔹 End-of-Life Wishes: Discover why discussing end-of-life preferences is crucial as Caputo recounts honoring her father’s wishes for a peaceful passing versus the traumatic hospital death of her mother without known wishes.
🔸 Therapeutic Practices: Learn from Caputo’s approach to providing comfort in therapy—validating experiences without judgment—and its impact on elderly individuals in caregiving settings.
✨ From dealing with personal loss to facilitating meaningful dialogues around mortality, this episode is a testament to the healing power of being heard. Join us for these powerful narratives that highlight compassion, understanding family dynamics, preparing for end-of-life moments, and embracing active grieving processes for growth and peace. 🕊️
Don’t miss out on this enriching discussion filled with practical advice (like using resources such as 5wishes.org) that might just change your perspective on life’s most difficult challenges!
Episode Transcription:
Victoria Volk: Hey. Hey. Thank you for tuning in to another episode of grieving voices. Unless this is your first time listening, thank you for joining us. And thank you or being here. Today, my guest is Yvonne Caputo. She is a psychotherapist, corporate trainer, consultant, and she has been a teacher and the head of a human resource department in a retirement community. She has a master’s degree in education and clinical psychology. She is the author of Flying With Dad, a daughter, a father, and the hidden gifts and his stories from World War two, and Dine With Dad tough talks for easier endings. Thank you so much for being here. And when I was looking through your laundry list of lost which I think if we all just took stock and wrote down really all of the stuff that we’ve been through, that life is thrown at us, whether from childhood or dog, you know, or first pet dying or having to move once, twice, three, four times, losing friendships in that process as adults, moving and having to change communities. And, you know, it’s I mean, just you become ingrained in where you live. Right? Like, these relationships become ever of your life, the UPS man, the mail man, the your delivery people, you get to know these people. I’m just kinda going off a tangent here, but If we think about how many losses we really have in life, I think we would be kinda shocked. Most of us. I mean, I I’ve I’ve done that, and I was shocked But, you know, I think it’s good from time to time to really take stock of the things that have happened to us that have shaped us. And so, what are the losses that have shaped you? And the work that you’re doing.
Yvonne Caputo: It it’s interesting you started out the way you did because it brought up something. That I sort of forgotten. And that’s that in nineteen eighty nine, I met and married this wonderful man. That’s not a loss, but he had two children from a previous marriage that he was committing to living near. So I, without thinking much about it, knew that I was going to be leaving the city that I loved leaving a job that I loved, leaving friends that I loved, and moving into this unknown world, and then when I got to Southeastern Pennsylvania.
I couldn’t find a teaching physician. So all of those things combined I remember thinking if I’m not okay in two years, with all of these changes and losses, then I’ll go back to therapy. I was in therapy at six months. Because, you know, as you said, leaving a town that I’ve been in for twenty years, leaving a kinds of friends leaving those connections. It was Erie, Pennsylvania, and it’s one of the most beautiful places in the world. It has a pen insulin that’s thirteen and a half grams around that I used to ride every day after I would leave my teaching position. So there were lots of losses. Becoming a step parent, becoming a parent for the first time. You know, to a nine and seven year old. So it was it was a mixed bag.
It was one of the best things are ever done. We celebrated our thirty fifth wedding anniversary yesterday. But yes, there were lots of losses. In that celebration.
Victoria Volk: Well, happy anniversary.
Yvonne Caputo: Thank you.
Victoria Volk: Exactly. Like, that’s the perfect example of these things that people generally forget about. Right? Like, we just don’t it it’s like, well, it wasn’t traumatic or you know, we we have this we tend to have this hierarchy or compare. And, you know, I shouldn’t be sad about this. This should be a great time, but yet it’s the both and
Yvonne Caputo: Mhmm. Can
Victoria Volk: be incredibly excited about something but incredibly sad and melancholy and grieving. Two, we can do we can hold both of those things at the same time.
Yvonne Caputo: I use this phrase with my clients. A lot, but I also use it generally in life. Sound mental health is the ability to contain the paradox. You can, you can’t, you will, and you won’t, it isn’t, it isn’t. So sadness and joy can be together in the same bubble. And knowing that I think is extremely soothing, you know, to be able to say, okay, I can be sad about this. And at the same time, I can experience joy the joy that goes with it. But you’re right. That was not something I was taught in grade school, nor was I, you know, taught in high school or college. It was only later in life that I heard that statement from a psychologist and I went, oh, wow. Boy does that say it all? And when I think about it containing the paradox, What’s a good synonym for contained? Mhmm. There really isn’t one. You know, it it it really is what it is. It’s it’s that it’s right there at the same time. Two things. So you’re absolutely right. We can hold joy and we can hold sadness at the same time.
Victoria Volk: You said hold in and I was actually thinking holding, like, just holding both of those emotions, like, contained in holding. But at the same time, it’s, like, it has to go somewhere. Right? The grief has to go somewhere. Even the joy has to go somewhere. Right? Like, we can’t it’s like, you know, if you are so grateful for somebody and you really let’s say, I mean, withholding our pain and our grief can have the same effect of holding our joy and our appreciation and our gratitude for people. Right? Like, there is a suffering that happens in that too. Right? Because I think I don’t know if I’m getting my I’m not getting my point across here. What I’m trying to say, but the energy has to go somewhere. Right? And so either the energy of joy or the energy of sorrow, like containing it does something to our bodies. You know, we can manifest symptoms. And if we don’t speak it or don’t share it or if we do, will it be received the right way? Or will it, you know, we can have these expectations of, if we say something to somebody that’s positive, will they have the response we want? You know what I mean? Like, there’s just that’s getting into, like, really deepen the weeds of relationships and communication and all of that. But I’m not sure I’m get getting my point across here, but Maybe you
Yvonne Caputo: There are two things that I think of when you say that. And that’s for any of us when we’re hearing somebody who is in sorrow or who is in joy. To listen Mhmm. To just listen. And, you know, nod heads or say aha or even tell me more, you know, to invite that person to continue on that path that they’re on because Absolutely. They need to explore it. They need to explain it. They need to have somebody who’s going to who is going to validate it just by listening. The second thing that I think of is this. When my father died, I was with him. And his dying wish was to be taken feet first out of his own home. Which meant he was gonna be on a gurney. And that’s exactly what happened. And when the EMTs put the gurney down behind the ambulance and the ambulance doors were open. And I saw the look on my father’s face. I went Yes. And the EMTs looked at me like I lost every marble I might have had. But what joy was coming out of me was the soft sweet smile on my dad’s face. Because he and I had had intimate talks about death and dying. And I knew exactly what he wanted. And when I saw that the end was coming, being with him at home, the EMT’s working on him, I knew what had to do. I picked up the phone, I called the hospital, I said, you know, so do not resuscitate water on dad’s chart. They’re bringing him in. Please make sure it’s at the emergency room when they come. Now that’s not the first time of his own home. But Grace was with me in that the emergency room doctor called and said, you can stop working on it. So I laid down beside my father. I told him that I loved him. I told him that he was gonna be with my mother, which is part of our conversation. He saw mister. And then I did what we always did in our family, the glue, I said the Lawrence prayer in his ear. And he was gone. So that joy did get expressed And it’s hard for people to understand that I continue to feel that profound sacred joy when I think about my dad’s death because he and I worked so closely on how he wanted it to be.
Victoria Volk: That’s beautiful. You are on the same team. Like, you were his cheerleader, you were his advocate. And I think so many people don’t get that opportunity, first of all, don’t maybe have that safe person that they trust. Maybe, you know, to follow through. Right? When because we’re taught how to acquire things and people people not what to do when we lose them. So what got you to that point to be able to be able to let go and not hold this grip and not let your ego get in the way.
Yvonne Caputo: My entire career from the time I graduated from college, feels like preparation for that journey.
Victoria Volk: You
Yvonne Caputo: know, being the teacher, being the psychotherapist, particularly working in the retirement community. As a member of the executive team, I sat on the ethics committee. And we had a case where a woman with severely tameshia could no longer communicate at all, developed an abscess on her foot, and the doctor in charge said, local bass and antibiotics. The daughter trying to be her mother’s advocate said, no. Mom’s advance directive, the document which gives legal power to somebody to speak if you can’t speak for yourself. Said quality of quality of life. And the daughter didn’t feel like antibiotic, cerebral palsy would equality of life that it was really time to let her mother go. The problem was that the quality that quality of life was recognized in our state. And so the case ended up going to court, a surrogate was provided to allow for the BaaS any antibiotic and then should that not help and an amputation be needed, the god the daughter could step in and say no. I’m sitting here on this case and I’m thinking about my dad and I’m like, whoa. Does he have an advanced directive? What is that? How do I go about getting one of that? One of them. So I did some research. Social workers are very helpful. And I called dad, and I said, I know you have a will, but do you have an advanced directive? What’s that? So I explained it. And he said, oh, no. He said, I never never thought about doing anything like that. And I said, well, okay, Dan. If I find an attorney and I come home, Would you be willing to sit and get it done? And he said, sure. So here I went to the attorney’s office and he made me, his healthcare, his legal, medical power of attorney. And so I felt pretty good about that until one of the vice presidents came back from a leading age conference. And this is conference that does everything about retirement communities. And she had this document called the five wishes. And she was just so excited about what this document did. And I asked her if I could borrow it. She said, sure, return that bar. It laid on my desk for a long time, and my desk was pretty messy. So one Friday night, I decided I needed to clean off my desk so that the housekeeping people would clean it because they wouldn’t touch it. If it was the way I kept it. And I pulled out the five wishes and started to read and I went, oh, by. This takes an advanced directive to places I never dreamed or possible. How comfortable do you want to be? What do you want your children to know? What do you feel best about in your life? And very simply laid out, the questions were all there. If dad if I was gonna do this with dad and dad said, no, I don’t want that. No, I don’t want that. All I had to do is cross a line. And I took the document. I wrote one for myself and I took the document and drove home to see that kind of quaking because my father get angry quickly. So I wasn’t quite sure what I was gonna meet when here I was taking in something that was similar to something he’d already done, but he was in just the right frame of mind. He towing his legs over the hospital bed. That’s where he was again. He was a broken diabetic. Pat in the seat. I sat down in the warmth of him. And we went over the five wishes. Question by question by line. Do you want your organs to be given after you die. That’s one of the questions. Dad said, hell no. He said, I can’t imagine anybody would wanna probably in Rack and Rowan. Do you want what do you want for your funeral? Well, he said my husband was gonna say because he’s got a glorious tender voice. He named exactly what songs he wanted in the funeral. He said, I want you children and grandchildren to do the readings, but you choose. You know what we’ll speak to you. And so on and on, he goes, and I’m writing these kinds of things down. And at the end of getting it done, I just reached for his hand, and once again, it was the Lord’s prayer. And it was one of the most intimate beautiful transcending experiences I’ve ever had in my life. So when the time came, I knew what dad wanted, and I went into automatic pilot. He had trusted me with the advanced directive and he had trusted me and named me on the five wishes. And there was no way in the world that I was not gonna honor. What he asked me to do. So for your audience in grieving voices, for me, do I miss my dad? Oh, absolutely. Would I like to cook one more pot roast dinner for him? Absolutely. Are there questions I have for him about world war two and other things that he did? Absolutely. Can I mail into tears and he’s been gone fourteen years now? Absolutely. But also in there is this profound, sacred joy that will make me just smile. Because of dad’s trust in me, that gift he gave me and the gift I gave him in return.
Victoria Volk: Were you an only child?
Yvonne Caputo: No. I remember
Victoria Volk: how did that work with communicating to the siblings and did they were they all on board with everything as well?
Yvonne Caputo: They were on board. My sister said she probably couldn’t have done it. To backtrack, there’s another story. One of the sorrows that I have, one of the things that I still grieve is my mother’s dementia. She went from being one of the most gifted women I’ve ever known. Intellectually, socially, spiritually. And to see her, not know what she did five minutes ago. It was heartbreaking. So we had some things we needed to do when she had surgery for colon cancer. And my brother and sister and I or a team. And my older brother said, okay, Yvonne, you take care of the psychological piece. You know that. Connie, you take care of some of the medical pieces, and I can take care of these. So we kind of divvied up the the the responsibilities so that when the time came, you know, it was me. It was me that then did what I needed to do. And the result of what that was is they were both pleased. They missed the fact that they weren’t with dad, but they were pleased that he had somebody with him. And that I stepped in and and did what he asked me to do.
Victoria Volk: You think it was the contrast of that experience with your mother that really kind of propelled you to curate a different experience with your dad?
Yvonne Caputo: Absolutely. Absolutely. My mother died in the hospital, in the sterile and god bless hospitals for what they do. I mean, I I wanna say that, but in this sterile atmosphere, and I called her on the phone. We’re six and a half hours apart by driving. And she started screaming. You’ve gone get me out of here. You’ve gone get me out of here. I don’t want to be here. You’ve gone get me out of here. It was so bad. That the nurse came in and took the receiver from her and talked to me and said, I’ll get it quieted down. I’m gonna hang up. That was the last conversation I had with my mother. And when she died, I was so angry. I was angry that she died in the hospital. I was angry that she died without somebody beside her. And you’re right. It propelled me in a way Mhmm. To think about that doing something with that differently. So in this case, grieving can be the voice that you need to hear or the need that you need to respond to. In order to do something that needs to be done?
Victoria Volk: You had kinda touched on. I just kinda wanna back pedal a little bit, and we’re gonna kinda jump around here a little bit, but you had touched on your dad’s anger. And, you know, I’m a veteran too, and so I have a really soft spot for veterans and, I mean, World War two is the greatest generation. Right? What was your experience growing up? With that relationship with anger? And what were you taught about grief growing up?
Yvonne Caputo: The anger was always just below the surface. So I remember it being a teenager asking for thirty five cents so I could go to the Saturday evening high school dance. And my dad just flipped. Gave me the thirty five cents but it was it was painful because he was so angry. That was there a lot. The other part is if I were if I was in tears over something, and I was I’m hypersensitive. I there’s a technical term for it. And if I was in tears, I was told to go into my room until I could get myself settled. There was no warmth through or come here, honey, what what’s the matter? Tell me about. There was none of that. So I didn’t learn what to do with my emotions. Until I went into therapy. And that was me to late twenties when I just looked at my life and said it’s not working. I’m doing the same things over and over again and I’m getting the same results. So I got into therapy where I finally learned what those childhood experiences meant, what they taught me to do, and how I could do things differently. But what changed my relationship with my father was world war two. Because one, evening in two thousand and eight. He and I were on the phone. And we do blood tests and dialysis treatments and doctor and send the people across the street who were giving them in home care, and then we’d stall for anything to talk about. I’m not a sports fan. You know, my brother and sister had sports and dad and they could just go on and on and on about that kind of thing. But wasn’t wasn’t in my backpack, but dad opened up and told me your World War two story, quirky, funny off the wall about of all things losing their third engine which had the hydraulics and making an emergency landing in free Belgium. And I, as a history book, said to my dad, let me get a pencil and paper. I wanna take notes. What the hell do you wanna do that? So how it came about Victoria, I don’t know, but the next phone call I said, tell me more. And the story’s just started rolling. My taking notes, my asking TAM questions, my listening to the stories, changed our relationship deeply. He began to trust me and opened up to me in ways that I never dreamt possible growing up as a kid. I say frequently through dad’s stories, I got the father knows who wanted. He got the daughter, he didn’t know he had. And I was in my sixties when all this happened. So that’s all a part of this, you know, grieving that in my sixties, I learned something about listening. About opportunities to listen. Now, of course, I did that as a therapist and why it didn’t occur to me to do it my own father. I don’t know. But he didn’t. What came out of that for me was the deep understanding of where my dad’s anger came from. It was PTSD. He went into the war because he wanted to fly. That was his main that was it. He wouldn’t have had to have gone. He had a presidential deferment that would have kept him home because he repaired airplanes. He repaired the airplanes that young testing pilots in in dad’s words busted off. So here’s a guy who watched a fly, e ends up in England as a navigator on b24s, watching playing after playing after playing, explode in the sky because it hit flexed or it was tracked by a German jet. And he came home with that. But he told me at some point when we were doing all of this talking, said when I came home, and everybody seemed to be fine. I walked around Meville, my hometown, and saw guys that I knew were that were in the service, and they seemed to be just fine. So I wanted to know what was wrong with me. He had a recurring nightmare that lasted for three years. He had a flashback sixty years after the war, none of which he understood. So part of the closeness that came for Dad and I was when those kinds of things came up in our conversation because of my background, I could explain what they were and why they happened. And that it was a normal thing to experience when you have witnessed such abnormality. So that that talks about the anger and where it came from when I was a child and how dad and I navigated through it. Even to the point where the last phone call he had with me, he had been released from the hospital. I had said, To the social worker, he can go home when he’s ready. Well, he they sent him home, no pain medication. He was an agony. He called me on the phone, and he ripped into me. I’m holding the phone. Out here, you know, while he’s doing it. And I said to him, I said, dad, I said, I told him you could go home, when you are ready. Doesn’t sound like you are ready. Victoria, he apologized. He said, oh, honey, I’m so sorry. I yelled at you. I didn’t mean it. And I replied, dad, you were just venting. It’s okay. So the grace that came with this closeness that I developed with my father is I got an apology. When we talk about grieving, I do miss that relationship. The one that I that dad and I were able to get to before he died. I missed that.
Victoria Volk: I missed that for you. My dad my dad was a Vietnam vet. Oh, what I know now about energy work and grief and all of that, I think he just held it all in. And it killed him, and he died of colon cancer at forty four. And he slept with a knife under the mattress. So coming back to the greater message about this is becoming that safe space to listen and having the patience to listen. I think it takes patience too. Right? Especially in this Western world. Right? We’re just let’s go go go go go. I have an example that perfectly illustrates this. My my I have a daughter that is a waitress. And there was a retired gentleman that had come in and he was asking her questions, like, what are her interests and things like that, and she said she what are her favorite classes in school and she said math and and shop class. He heard shop class and She said for the next twenty minutes, he just shared his life story about woodworking and his love of cabinetry and all of these things. And he tipped her, you know, a small small modest tip, a general, like, ten percent, whatever. Typical tip but he she noticed he was still outside when she was getting off of work. And she comes outside to take off the open flag and he approaches her, and he said, hands are a hundred dollar bill. And he said, this is for your next shop project. And she was so ecstatic. And she told him, she’s I can’t take this. This is too much. She said, no. I wanna give it to you. This is for your next next shot project. And she came home and she was so excited and she shared with me and I was and I said to her, this is exactly what I said to her. I said, you gave him your time. You listened to his stories. That’s what that meant to him, I believe. Mhmm.
You had a shared interest, you were interested in hearing what he had to say, and he was excited to share. He gave him your time. He listened. So I just thought that was a great story to tie into this listening piece and giving people our time.
Yvonne Caputo: Well, that Same kind of listening happened very frequently to me when I was in the retirement community. My office was up on the third floor. And I want as the Human Resource Vice President. I want it by office away from the home of So if an employee wanted to come see me, they could do so, you know, discreetly. Because going to my office was like going to the principal’s office, you know. But my office was on the same wing as a lot of the residents. And I always had an open door, and they would come in and sit down And eventually for some, what was said is this. Yvonne, I just wanna go. I wanna be done. I wasn’t hearing suicidal ideation. I was hearing Well, let me finish by saying okay. My response was okay. Tell me more. My friends are gone. My partner’s gone. I’m in physical pain all the time. I’m not doing the things that I love to do. I’m just ready. And I would ask what’s your base perspective? Because when my mother said that very same thing to me a month before she died, I said the mom talked to God. You and God decide when it’s time. But that kind of listening was what was needed in those moments when the residents came in or when my mom said it. Tell me about it. So and it can be so helpful, particularly with people who are grieving. Tell me about it. What’s it like? And no interruptions and no commentaries And no Well, let me tell you about how I You just let them talk till they can’t till there’s nothing left to say. And that’s what you said earlier about, how do you get rid of it? Mhmm. How do you how do you put it out there? I was asked by Seventh Great Teachers to come and talk to their kids about therapy. And I said, to the teachers. Please have the kids write questions. What do they want to know? So I’m not up there blabbering about what I do. I’m addressing their concerns. I saved the best question for last, and it was I read the question and my story just bounced out of me. It was not anything I planned. I said to and if you can imagine a group of seventh graders. I said, have you ever had a vomit? Have you ever had a stomach that was just churning in ugly? And you try to hold it down and you try to hold it down. But there was a point at which you either got to the bathroom or you got to a waste basket because it was coming whether you wanted it or not. And it was gonna smell ugly and it was gonna taste ugly and it was gonna look gross. And I really went into the effect great film. I said, however, how did it feel once it was all over? And they all responded, it felt better. And I said, that’s what therapy is. Because the the person who asked the question was, if it’s so good for us, has come at heart so much. So it’s again that, you know, when dad told me the nightmare, the recurring nightmare, He was in the b twenty four. It was going down. He needed to get out. There was a place that he had to get through on his hands and knees. And on the sides of this kind of tunnel, little tunnel thing was all stainless steel. Any couldn’t grab onto anything. There was nothing to pull himself through. And he always woke up screaming, and mom would say, what is it like? And dad was out to the home. It’s just a bad dream. It was so bad at touring. He’d done channels in the mattress. Three years of those kinds of nightmares. So when we were talking about it, I explained the normality. Of nightmares given what he witnessed. And Sarcasm was an artful language in my family. So I ended the conversation with dad by just saying, Sorry, Hal. You’re just normal. But I literally could hear his shoulders drop. Knowing that what he had considered to be something wrong with him for all of those years was a normal response. To a traumatic event. And that’s central to my passion, okay, for talking to people particularly about death and dying. Having those conversations with my father were hard, hearing what he had to say was hard, knowing that we were talking about something that was going to happen was hard. But it created it was a part of the whole thing right there that created the closeness that he was he trusted me enough to open up to say, okay, in the end, this is what I want, and this is why I want it. So that’s another passion that I have. Is that My five wishes are done. My children have. My five wishes. We talk about the end for me and what I want and what I don’t want. Now, it’s been a while, so I recognize that I need to go back and do that document again. But I don’t want them to experience what I experienced with my mom. What did she want? How did she want it to be? What would have been better for her? Because it certainly wasn’t a good thing that she was in the hospital all by herself in that sterile atmosphere.
Victoria Volk: Well, in estimate, a different approach too. I mean, once someone has is suffering from dementia, it’s a little bit harder to do this, like, to prepare. Right? Because you don’t know what frame of mind they’re necessarily in. And if it’s an honest depiction of really what they want, maybe, is that accurate or, like Yeah. Like, what is your advice, I guess, for listeners who, well, I guess, take care of it as soon as possible before this before dementia is even a thing. But What would you what would be your advice for that?
Yvonne Caputo: My advice is no matter what the age. No matter what your age is, get the documents, get them done, put them in a safe place. And broach the subject with your children. If it’s an older person, broach the subject with your children, children You ask your parents. You know, when the end comes, mom, what do you want? How would you like it to be? Oh, honey, I I don’t think we should talk about that. Well, I’m gonna plant the seed, mom, because I’m gonna come back and ask you again. At some point because I want to be able to take care of you in the way that you weren’t taken care of. The five wishes w w w dot five wishes dot org, the document itself costs five dollars. You can do it online if you’d like, so you can, you know, use your typing and all that kind of stuff. And that stays for a year and a half. They keep that that for a year and a half. Also, in their store, they have a booklet. How to talk about it? How to bring it up. So they give guidance in that respect. Treat death and dying other than the elephant living room. You know, we we say, don’t we death and taxes? The only thing that we could be sure we’re in death and taxes. We’ll talk about the taxes. But we won’t talk about the death. I was lucky. I know that. It’s not always possible to die in the way that you would like. Because that happens. But if it is possible, yet made the grieving process for me so much easier. So much easier. Because I knew what dad wanted and I acted on what dad wanted and we talked about it, we would be on the phone. After the document was done. And he would just pipe up and say, oh, I want to go. I’d say, okay. Talk to me. Tell me. And then sometimes we would be on the phone and I would say, I haven’t heard you say you want to go. Well, things have been good, you’ve gone. I’ve been feeling pretty good and things gone along pretty well, so I guess I’m not ready now. So that’s the way, you know, that’s how easily it became for us to talk about it. As I said earlier, when I have the back of the heartbeat, you betcha. But equal to wanting him back on a heartbeat is the joy.
Victoria Volk: This is a reminder to me because I I’m a trained end of, like, do a thank you for that resource. I’m gonna actually add it to my website, but I have not asked my mom. And she’s gonna be eighty two. So it’s like, you know when I’m in it? I’m in it. I you know, and I haven’t done anything with that training since I received it. I didn’t know what that was gonna look like. I honestly, I still really don’t. It’s just a tool in my toolbox. And so what you’re talking about is, like, speaking my language. Right? Like, my my dad passed away in the nursing home. I know it’s not probably the way he wanted to go. And I know for sure that’s not how my mom wants to go. So that I do know. She’s made that very clear. But as far as these other things, I haven’t we haven’t had that conversation. And I think I get so wrapped up in my day to day and, like, the work that I do, like, I’m not asking the most important person, what do you want? You know? So this has been a very good reminder for me. To do so. So thank you for that gift today.
Yvonne Caputo: You’re welcome. And to spread it even a little further, My granddaughter was diagnosed in her senior year in high school with leukemia. She’s fine. She’s in her mission. Okay? She’s twenty three now and she’s doing very well. But she was the five wishes were were given to her at seventeen to fill out. And this was chalk in Los Angeles. Children’s Hospital of Los Angeles. They say it differently, choppies and Philadelphia. But I thought that that was pretty interesting. That the hospital would give her that document and ask her to complete it. Wow. Seventeen. So it’s made me very aware of dates. And folks that have there’s just some beautiful stories that go with dying with dad. One young person, like, to me, somebody in the forties as young, said, my parents have tried to talk to me about it. And I just said, no. No. It’s not gonna happen right now. We don’t have to worry about that. You know, it’s too soon. And it flipped for her. She said, yeah, we have to talk about it now. And then there was an elderly gentleman who steadfast daughters. My five wishes are done. On my birthday, I wanna do a zoo, and I wanna talk about it. I want you to know what I want. That’s my birthday present. I don’t know anything else. I don’t want any goodies. Just I wanna talk about it. So they got to the part of did you want to be buried or cremated? And he said, I want to be cremated. So the question is, dad, what do you want us to do with your ashes? They said, oh, I don’t care. Do whatever is easy. And that was his persona. You know? Don’t put your side. Well, just do leasing. And he said, just throw a moment of breath. And they said, wait a minute, dad. Wouldn’t you like to have your ashes? Taken to the prairies in Canada where you grew up. In that one room house, He said, well, that’s too much work. Well, wait a minute, dad. What if that’s something we’d like to do? For you? He said, okay, I’ll change that part of my five wishes. Give a take. The most profound was one of the women in my writing school who was acutely ill. Acuteal, years, surgeries, pain, disability. Not doing the job that she loved. And she got the five wishes and filled it out and then sat down and had hard her conversations with her kids and her husband. And I found out that she was going to hospice. She had made the decision no more searches. And what her husband did for us was set up fifteen minute calls on Zoom for her to talk to the women in a writer’s group. It only lasted eight minutes because she was so tired, but she just kept saying, Yvonne, thank you for the five wishes. I can’t tell you what it’s been. My family is in agreement. We’re all talking about the same things. They know I’m ready it’s okay. And it’s because we have to find wishes. What could be better than that?
Victoria Volk: To be able to that self agency, I think, is an organization called Dine with Dignity
Yvonne Caputo: Mhmm.
Victoria Volk: Around Capitol Hill. They’re, you know, pushing legislation across different states. Yeah. I I think it’s a very important topic that hasn’t talked about enough to I don’t think people realize that they have a choice, you know? Like, they have choices. But you’ve had a lot of grief, and I’m I we’re kinda nearing an hour, and I don’t know how you are on time.
Yvonne Caputo: I’m good. But you have
Victoria Volk: a lot of loss in your life that was before your mother, before your father. Would you like to share anything about those experiences and what those taught you?
Yvonne Caputo: I had an uncle. And the cousin who died by suicide. And it taught me to think a great deal about what was so bad. You know, what was what would be so bad that I would no longer want to live. And Are there times like that in everybody’s lives? Of course, there are. However, given what it did to their families, I wouldn’t never do that to my family. I would find a way through the miasma of whatever that bad stuff was. Because I just couldn’t do that to my family. Losing my brother at the age of twenty six in a car accident was one of the most profound grieving experiences I’ve ever had. He and I were very close and we had the same kind of radar in terms of what we wanted and who we wanted to be and how the world got be and all that kind of stuff. And going through the process of grieving his loss, My spirituality was enhanced, a hundred fold. My belief in life. And I’m not gonna say religion because religion isn’t it. It’s spirituality. That what I want from my life is to have made a difference. In whatever way she performed, that that is. I I want to make a difference. And I found that through my brother’s death. The other losses and uncle at the age of fifty two, uncle Mac. When we would see each other. First thing he would do is hold out his arms and expect me to run into them. And then he torn me around and he put me down on the floor. He was the person. He was one of the persons in the family that made me feel special. And he died at the age of fifty two. That was You never know how long. I have I had a great appetite at ninety six. Others who passed away in their late eighties, but you don’t know. He went to sleep one night and he didn’t wake up. You know? So living a life with purpose and trying to remember on a daily basis. What’s important for me to do today? Where do I need to spend my energy? At the end of the day, can I close my eyes and say, yeah, what’s a good day? Or it was a hire date, but that’s okay. So each I think each and every one of them has taught me something. And I was, bless my mother. My mother took me to the library. Well, that’s a little girl. And it was always she would say, what do you wanna read now? And she’d take me to that section, and we would talk about books and she would pull we would pull them out. And even as a little child, I would read about sorrowful things and how sorrowful things impacted the characters in the book. So I knew as a child that it was all it was it wasn’t always rosy and creamy and that kind of stuff. What didn’t happen in childhood was what to do with those feelings. Like I said earlier, that came, you know, when I did therapy. So there has been a learning process in each and every one of those, yes. To make me think about what I want having those documents ready. Right? And closing my eyes the final time and knowing that life was good. It was just good.
Victoria Volk: Was the uncle on your mother or father’s side,
Yvonne Caputo: my mother’s side. The two uncles that I mentioned were both on my mother’s side. And they lived very close to us, you know, so that’s why I had the relationship with them that I did. My uncles on my dad’s side live far away, so we might get to see them once every two years. I didn’t have the same kind of relationship with them.
Victoria Volk: How did you see the dynamic change between your parents when your brother passed? Like, what did that do to the family unit?
Yvonne Caputo: When my father was standing, receiving communion before he took a flight on the mission. He would say, if I come back, it’s God’s will. If I don’t, it’s God’s will. So that was That was how he handled it. My mother never recovered. Never recovered. And she never we were we did the family outing a couple of years. We would rent this big sixty foot houseboat and it had, like, twelve bedrooms in it, and so the whole family would get together and we’d go around the lake in Tennessee. Mom and I were walking in the woods. We could pull up to the shore and anchor, and mom and I were walking in the woods. And she looked around and she said, Oh, Mark would have loved this. Mark being my brother. And then out of her mouth came, oh, Teddy shut up. You should be over this by now. And I said to her, no. Mommy, you can’t. You’re never gonna be over losing a child is something that is with you for your lifetime. But the way she was raised, her generation was. Yeah. You should be over it. Now luckily for mom, she was very much a believer and I think church being able to go to church and have the church. Was reassuring to her, but they handled it very differently. And my father was one who would say, I can’t talk about it. It’s not my way. So I am now thinking that it could have been very helpful for mom to be able to talk about it as much as she needed to talk about it. But she didn’t have anywhere to express it.
Victoria Volk: I’m reading a book right now. The guest is gonna be on my podcast. I’m gonna botch her name, so I’m not even gonna try it. But her first name is Annie, and the book is called Always A sibling. And she talks about the the longest I’d never gave it any thought until I I read sorry, reading this book, but really the relationship with our siblings, if we are blessed to have a sibling, is the longest relationship. If you think about it, because we tend to all live our parents. Even those we marry, we were still in relationship with our siblings first. Like, those are our first and longest relationships. And in the book, she’s just talking about how significant of a loss it really is when you lose a sibling. It’s just very different.
It’s that they’re the people that know you unlike anybody else because they’ve been with you the longest. Anyway, that might be a book you might be interested in reading, but
Yvonne Caputo: Yes. Yes. Because the relationship I had with my brother who died. Was very much like that. We we spoke the same language. We had interest in the very same kinds of things. He was actually Mark called me and said, do you wanna come down to Pittsburgh? We’re gonna go see. It’s a famous nineteen seventies. Gordon, like okay. It came to me. And we did that together, and he was dating my best friend at the time. And then the following day, we went to a huge music store in Pittsburgh, Bullwringers. And he was looking at the coterminous and looking at the so looking at that. And that wasn’t as a fairly material, really interested because I’m not and not musical in the way that work was musical.
And he said, okay. I’m ready to go. All he’s got in his hands It’s this little brown flat envelope. We get in the car. And I said, Mark, what’d you buy? He said dust in the wind. The song by Kansas. All you are is dust in the wind, and your catheter and I are wearing the back seat. What? I think the music is beautiful, but the words are awful. That was the weekend before he died. He died the following Tuesday. So I think that also explains what I said earlier. That that loss, that loss is probably the biggest loss I’ve ever experienced. Ever ever experienced.
Victoria Volk: And yet, it’s not the one that you came on the podcast for.
Yvonne Caputo: You’re right. I didn’t. I feel his presence though, from time to time. It’s like I had this guardian angel. Who’s looking out for me.
Victoria Volk: Was that song played in his funeral?
Yvonne Caputo: No. It wasn’t. But I’ll be doing something. This was more when I be in the car and I have the car turned to a music station. But it would come on and I would feel his presence and it was like this message from beyond. That everything was gonna be fine. That whatever I was experiencing at the time was just normal to life and things would be fine.
Victoria Volk: One of the things that I I share about on my podcast and in conversation with people that you know, I personally had tried hitting a therapy once, my early twenties. And, you know, I’m trained and certified in grief recovery, which is not therapy, but it’s very therapeutic. And it’s not talk therapy. I mean, people talk, of course, but there’s also action. Right?
Yvonne Caputo: Mhmm.
Victoria Volk: So what do you say and I’m curious what you would say to this too. So that’s why I’m asking if people are listening who follow my podcast, they’re probably wanting me to ask this. So I’m gonna ask. What do you say when to the thought that talk therapy alone doesn’t work? Like, you have to take action with it? What are your thoughts around that? Because and this is this ties into actually another question. When you in your when you talk about processing your grief, like, I wanna know what that looked like for you. What did the act of processing your grief look like because I know what it looked like for me and it was using a method that’s evidence based in yada yada, it’s the grief recovery method. That’s the action piece. What did that look like for you? And what what is the action that you feel like people need to take when they’re in talk therapy or maybe not. I don’t know what’s your perspective of that. Howard Bauchner:
Yvonne Caputo: I value talk therapy. But there’s also something about what you do. Mhmm. It’s the doing thing. So if I go back and I think about the doing thing after Mark died, I would have to say that my presence in the classroom with kids changed. That doing for me was being there for my students in a way that had nothing to do with two plus two weeks before or putting a comma in the right place. It was there to be observant. It was there to look for pain. It was there to be a listening Yeah. It was there to give a hug that if I were to I I just knew. That if I were to be present for the kids, being actively present for the kids and my friends, that that would help me to heal. I would be doing something with the angst that I felt. I can give an example. We were sitting in the living room, talking about the wedding. And it just so happens we were looking through my husband’s Foot album of these parents’ marriage. And oddly enough, we were going to be getting married fifteen years to the day. Obvious ramen dad’s wedding. And and and he didn’t he and I didn’t notice. And and we’re kinda talking about this and and I looked and at the top of the stairs, there’s pavement. She’s seven years old and the tears are just dreaming down her face. So I went up, and we went into her room, and we sat on the bed, and I held her nice aggressive ladder. And she said, I’m never gonna know my grandmother. My grandmother’s dead, and I’m never gonna get to know her. And so I said, that is a sad thing. You’re absolutely right. So that’s an action in terms of how I changed. That Seeing someone in pain gives me an opportunity to stop and say, the listening piece. When I was a human resource professional, we had a very dear resident in the memories ring die. And she’s just lovely even in dementia. She was just one of these precious precious things. And I walked onto the unit and I could see one of the eights just trying to hold back the tears. And I would have turned, I said, could you use a hug? Am I just unfolded her ending? She sobbed. So being able to comfort someone in an active kind of way. Has been one of the ways I’ve managed my own grief. My the only, you know, that loss of of of my brother. Because there were times in my life that he didn’t do that for me or I would do that for him.
Victoria Volk: That’s a perspective I didn’t expect. Thank you for sharing.
Yvonne Caputo: You’re welcome. You’re welcome. I’m grateful to Mark. In the oddest of ways, I am grateful for that grief. I am grateful for his loss. Again, what I am back in the heartbeat? Oh, there’s so much I have to tell them. It’s just so much I have to tell them. I want them to meet this family of mine, but I really started to become something through the grief process. Around his dad that I treasure. And I do say that, you know, when I’m working with people in in grieving, you know, here’s where we go in. Boom. We dropped to the bottom. And then come up when you drop, when you drop, when you drop, when you drop, when you drop, and it may be years later, we don’t go down again. And that happened to me in England the other mirror. But if we grieve actively, if we do something with our grief, if we honor the feelings, if we process the feelings, if we do something, then here’s where we came in, here’s where we come out. And I’ve got a diagram of this that I show. That grief is away, if processed correctly, that we can become better people, more true to ourselves.
Victoria Volk: Yeah. It sounds like your your compassion was just cracked open.
Yvonne Caputo: Mhmm.
Victoria Volk: It really does sound like that experience of losing your brother was what just let your compassion flood out and propelled you to give it to others. The love that you couldn’t give to him. Right?
Yvonne Caputo: And I will remember your phrase. That it cracked open because that’s that’s pretty profound in and of itself. Yes, it cracked open.
Victoria Volk: I think for so many of us, for grief loss, you know, it can take us down. And crack us open to where we feel like we’re in a million pieces. But I do think it not that yours I don’t wanna say, like, not that it’s a special person. Right? Not that it How do I wanna say this? I think different people are built. To do something with that. You know, I think a lot of the people that have experienced a lot of grief, a lot of loss or trauma, young in life, throughout life. I think it just builds you differently. You know, I’m yeah. I guess that’s maybe my thought on that. For some people that may not experience a devastating loss until their twenties or thirties or forties later in life, that can be the very thing that just takes them takes them down and they find themselves in just completely lost, not knowing what to do. So what is one thing that you would like to scream to the world?
Yvonne Caputo: I am grateful for the loss of my brother in nineteen seventy eight. Because one of the life lessons that I was given is that If I actively grieve, if I actively work on it, I will get there. And so now if life throws something at me, that’s hard. If I actively work at it, it will get better. And if it doesn’t get better, then It’s time for me a to go talk to somebody or b, sometimes it’s meant for me, ending our relationship. You know, the the process of of greeting Mark and all the listens I learned from that. I hope it’s made me I think it’s made me a better person. And I’ll take that.
Victoria Volk: It’s a beautiful way to end this episode. Thank you for sharing. And Is there anything else that you would like to share that you don’t feel like you got to?
Yvonne Caputo: I think we did well.
Victoria Volk: I think so too. Where can people reach you if they would like to connect with you?
Yvonne Caputo: I don’t have my own website, but they can find me on my published website, which is in in Genium, I n g e n I u m books dot com. My email, if they would like to get in touch with me personally, is fairly simple. Yvonne, y v o n n e, author, a u t h o r, the number four at g mail dot com. Yvonne arthur four at gmail dot com. And you can also find me on LinkedIn. So if people wanna message me through LinkedIn, I’m there too.
Victoria Volk: Thank you so much.
Yvonne Caputo: In your books, please share your books. Okay. The first book is dying with dad. It sees World War two stories, kind of how those stories gave me the father I always wanted, and he got a daughter that he didn’t know he had. And then dying with that is how I grew. There are lots of growth stories in there to be comfortable talking about death and dying. And the tagline for the book is tough talks for easier endings. It’s how I got into having those intimate conversations with my father and what happened because of that.
Victoria Volk: And you can find those on Amazon.
Yvonne Caputo: Oh, everywhere. Yeah. Amazon earns a noble. If you are if you are an independent bookstore, lovered and they don’t have it on their shelves, just go in and ask them to order it for you.
Victoria Volk: Alright. I will put the links for those books and your LinkedIn and probably your email address. In the show notes. And thank you for your time today. I feel like this was a very rich conversation. I’ve I have a to do list for myself in gratitude of this conversation. Yeah. Thank you for sharing the resource. Five wishes dot org. I will also put that in the show notes. Get on that, everybody. Your own advocate? Before it’s too late, and thank you.
Yvonne Caputo: Oh, you’re welcome. It was a pleasure.
Victoria Volk: And remember, when you unleash your heart, you unleash your life, much love.