Michelle St Jane | Widows Don’t Sleep: Walking the Path of Cumulative Loss
SHOW NOTES SUMMARY:
Michelle St Jane is no stranger to grief, like many guests who have shared their stories.
The traumatic experience of finding her grandfather deceased when she was 15 and the subsequent “Don’t talk, don’t tell” approach to grief laid the foundation for her in how she addressed her grief. She would later better understand the impact that her family of origin had on her life.
Michelle left her family of origin at age 17 to travel and later found herself in love, married, and with children. However, her life would be flipped upside down when, at the age of 27, she found herself a widow unexpectedly with a 9-month-old and 5 and 6-year-old in tow.
Years later, she would experience the loss of another love suddenly in a tragic accident. Additionally, she lost the opportunity to visit and say her goodbyes when a dear friend died during the Covid-19 pandemic.
Grief is cumulative, and it is cumulatively negative. Michelle shares how she’s managed to get where she is now, what helped her most along the way, and the ultimate gift grief and loss have given her.
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Victoria Volk 00:02
Thank you for tuning in to another episode of grieving voices. Although if this is your first time, thank you for being here. Today, my guest is Dr. Michelle St. Jane. She is the host of the podcast Life and Leadership, a conscious journey for global leadership in reemerging leadership. Thank you for being here, Michelle.
Michelle St Jane 00:25
Oh, I so appreciate you, Victoria. And I’m really grateful for this topic. It’s so important.
Victoria Volk 00:30
Grief is my jam. I hate to say it like that. But it is it’s been my best friend for many, many years. And I thought, you know, I might as well make it my passion and work in this life. So thank you for gracing your presence to my listeners and for sharing your story today. And let’s start there, what brings you to grieving voices?
Michelle St Jane 00:53
Well, actually, I think I come from a place where I feel very guided. And Ellie visa once advised, whoever survives the test, whatever it may be, must tell the story, that’s his or her journey, her duty. And for me, life is a conscious journey. And I’ve had, I’ve had to survive more than once losing close loved ones, in different circumstances, you know, once was finding my grandfather did once was my husband died when I was 27. And once was a boyfriend who was killed in a road traffic exit, all in different decades, over 30 years. Just really tough things to endure. And through the grieving, there were these gifts that came about.
Victoria Volk 01:41
So let’s start at 15 when you found your grandfather, how did that impact you? And what was the aftermath of that? Like? Was there communication around what happened in it discussion?
Michelle St Jane 01:57
Well, my grandfather is my first close experience. When my grandmother had died, it was all hush hush and children weren’t included. Unlike other wisdom traditions, like for example, I was born in New Zealand. So the Maori have a tradition where everyone is involved, there are certain things that you do to respect your your deceased loved one and how you go through a process. But for me, this woke at that time. In the 70s. That did not happen. It was all just very hashtagged. We didn’t know we were not involved. It was there was no recognition of any impact on what might have happened. I wasn’t particularly close to my grandmother. But there was a huge sudden gap there. In contrast with my grandfather, who actually died probably about 10, or 12 years later, we were very close. He was my hero, my my protector. And I was very blessed with that. In the in the year leading up to his death, my mother and him had had a fight. And in a bed, they asked him for it, which is nothing unusual, but they had a quite a bad one. And I remember in the weeks leading up to his death, and particularly the last three days, I knew something was wrong. And I was very concerned that we’d had no contact. And I was, you know, absolutely belligerent, we need to go check on him, we need to go check on him. And eventually we went and checked on him and he had passed away. So again, I was 15 children weren’t really included in anything, there was all the family dramatics is there are some times and consequently, I actually it was his funeral, he was cremated, and I had such a traumatic reaction to to his service being held at the crematorium. And then hen going through to, you know, left the room on this, how they do, depending where you are. And I had such a very, very, very bad reaction, but there was no room to have any emotions, because there was the family drama and all sorts of going on. And my reaction was just considered bad behavior. You know, so I had all my angst and eventual anger, and then this trauma, and nobody was talking to each other, you know, you know, we just, you know, don’t talk, don’t tell. And I found that very upset, upsetting. So the learning I got from that was, my family could not be there for me. They had enough going on of their own, which is often the case. But I learned that sometimes when you’re in a situation like that, you either can be your own worst enemy, or your own best friend. I chose the latter being so young and there weren’t the services and support around anger certainly translated into a fury that fueled me to do many things I may not have done and Of course, it was years later, I have a lot of time to work on therapy, in trying to deconstruct some of those roadblocks that can come out of these situations.
Victoria Volk 05:09
I love how you said that, that you can be your own worst enemy or your own best friend. And you kind of learn, like you said, how to respond by the people who are around you like what, what is what’s appropriate, or what is acceptable, or, and like you said, you learn quickly, I can’t rely on my family to be there to support me in the way that I need. And so how did that impact you? When you found like, when you experienced when your husband passed?
Michelle St Jane 05:45
Well, with regards to my family, I ended up breaking away, which ended up being a much bigger guest because I could have been subsumed by that environment where people were doing the best that they could, which was not going to be very good for me. So the outcome of that one was, basically I had my passport and got on a plane when I was about 17, and started traveling. So I took what is commonly called today, the geographical transfer option. Just what I didn’t realize was, there you go, you take yourself. So as I said, many years later, I took the path down some therapy to help me deal with that. So with regards to my husband, he died when I was 27. And we were coming up on 10 years marriage. Oh, gosh, that is that that experience taught me that walking, the last mile is really important. And how you go about doing that give the support that you need to do this. Again, I was back in New Zealand around my family of origin. And my mother had actually lost my stepfather virtually virtually a year to the same month. So we were both widowed within a year of each other. So as you can imagine doing the best that she could, she had huge issues around grief and coping. And in the skills and how to do this, there were challenges. So the gift that I got from my husband passing unexpectedly was was he left me with today really is the present And therein lies the gift. So living in the now and today and appreciating those who are around us is really, really important. The other part of the experience, which I found so difficult and still do, to be very honest, was that and I’m going to quote Martha Whitmore. Hickman has been a huge inspiration. She has a book called healing after loss daily meditations for working through grief. And I didn’t get that book for many more couple of decades later, but she has a quote, nothing could stop you not the best day, not the quiet, not the ocean rocking. You went on with your dying. My husband had an aneurysm, how can his lungs and he ended up being brain dead, but he was a very fit person. So consequently, he was in a coma after coming off life support for over 36 hours. So this is what I mean by walking that last mile. Staying present in the now with the time that we had left. And also walking with my head held high. And my young children, I have three young children, nine months old, five and six years old, is really important. It’s it’s lifted blueprint for them that they may or may not never, ever use. But the hard thing for me as a young woman was, there was nothing that could stop him dying. He was branded. And I had all these mixed feelings around how long after he came off last life support that he remained with us. So I was also wrestling with, I just want you to be at peace. I just want to figure out how I get on with life now, but I don’t want you to go but you’re already gone. But I still hear your heart beating like very, very, very difficult. So that quote was by Martha Whitmore, Heckman, nothing could stop him he was going to go that didn’t matter if it was the best day, the quiet day. The ocean continuing to come and go he went on with his you know dying. And that was really, really a struggle for me. The other thing that happened was this was the month of October. And as I mentioned, I was in New Zealand at the time. And it was Halloween. So I remember going with my brother in law to get a black tie. He was a bad Piper and he was going to pipe at his funeral and we walked into a store and this young man came up The salesperson, and he was so delighted and he was really working on his salesman magic. And when my brother in law said he needed a black tie, he slipped into Halloween mode. So I’m sitting there like, I’m going through this awful transition of my, my husband being gone, the father of my children, my best friend, my lover and my whole life, and I’m gonna have to figure out how to go. And this young man is dancing with delight, because it’s Halloween and someone wants to reflect. So, you know, another quote from mother Whitmore Heckman that somehow we feel the earth should stop spinning and acknowledge our grief. And I’m standing in that store in this sort of no woman’s land pancake. Ah, I want to say something to you. But I don’t want to say something to you. Yeah. Not easy. Not easy. Yeah.
Victoria Volk 10:57
I got chills when you when you say shared that first quote, and the conflicting feelings that you must have felt. And so what were those days? I mean, express like this. It’s almost like you’re, you’re an alien in your own life. And you know, from how you described it, it’s like you You don’t even know how to be. So how did you manage with three young children? On top of it? How did you manage that?
Michelle St Jane 11:31
That is such an insightful question. Well, I thought, I’m a widow, so I’m going to go to a widows support group. They told me to go away, I was too young to be a widow. So I was again like society was handing me these lovely backhanded slacks off slide. Well, you guys had this experience, I don’t quite know what to do with myself. And, you know, you know, had to walk through talking with my children that funeral. And I had so many mixed feelings. So I did manage to go and see a psychiatrist. Like I was desperate for help. So I spoke to my husband’s doctor and said, I feel like I’m going crazy. So he says, I’ll book you in with the psychiatrists. So of course there were these feelings of Oh, do I need one of those? And what happens if I go there? Or my step for life or bla bla bla, what are the judgments gonna be? Well, the psychiatrist only saw me once we chatted about my husband and she said to me, you’re going to be okay. She said you have sat here and shared your favorite memories, your deepest grief and you have cried so many tears that you’ve not stopped smiling. He has left you with so much precious precious material, you’re going to be okay. And the other very valuable advice she gave me for my children because you know, a five year old and a six year old immediately look at you and go well what if you die? And how do you answer that tomorrow is not promised? So she said to me the psychiatrists in New Zealand she said to me, if you’re okay, your kids will be okay. So do what if you do take care of you being Okay, and then you can still be okay, you don’t have to do anything more than that. And you certainly don’t need to see me again. I didn’t resolve finding another group group for grief work but I got about the business of raising my family and figuring out how do you do life when you’ve lost such a key person who’s so central to your well being and your Yeah, your balance?
Victoria Volk 13:41
So following her advice, did you find that to be true?
Michelle St Jane 13:46
as best as you can? Let’s face it sometimes it will Well, it nobody comes with a handbook so kids will probably be in therapy. But I’ve always done the best that I can I come from the position of I can only lead by example. And there is one other diff I’d like to share with you were actually two one was I I decided to date many years later and I met this lovely chap and we had eight weeks together and he was killed on in a highway accident so you think by now i’d be feeling like oh my gosh, you know these this is scary these close close people in my life. But for me that that df that I again, I got to walk the last mile with his sons and be present for them when almost almost like Groundhog Day, his family all around work coping particularly well and there was a lot of drama. So for me, and I’ll quote Martha Whitmore, when again. So maybe the experience of loss not only helps us clarify what is important to us, but also helps us know where we are and the direction we want to go in. So I knew I had a moment in time I had only been around this man for eight weeks, in the previous week before he had introduced me to his sons by surprise, because I was not agreeable to that, as a parent myself, I did not want to be involved in someone’s family life, particularly with children, unless it was going to be a long term relationship. And eight weeks is way too early for that. And at the funeral, I found out that he was going to propose, but again, it was way too early for all of that. But he was so happy. And at the week, people kept saying, I don’t know what you did, but it’s the happiest thing I’ve ever seen him. And they thought it was down to me. So I also was carrying this sort of guilt because I had been cross at him for introducing me to his boys by surprise, and we’d spent the weekend together. A few days before he died, they were supposed to have been with their mother. So I had to wrestle with some feelings. But to go back to Martha Whitmore head men’s coat, it clarified what was important to me that I was asked by the family to stay for his funeral. So I just, I just decided to be the steadying presence so that I could be not part of the drama. And also in the direction that I wanted to go that I needed to step gracefully back out, because I was not going to be part of the circle. And then, and they didn’t need me to, they had plenty of family, but at least in the final goodbyes, I could make a contribution as a presence and pay my respects without being involved in all of the drama, which is not my oke anyway.
Victoria Volk 16:41
Well in the gift in that, too, is that they thought of you. It he thought of you. He obviously shared his feelings for you, with his family and loved ones and people that mattered. And so the gift for you too, was that, because what that I mean, I imagine that would have been a very different experience for you to have they’ve been like, Oh, you barely knew the guy, like, What do you want? What are you doing here? You know, and so it was very much a gift for you to that he gave you. Without you really realizing it at the time.
Michelle St Jane 17:11
I’d also add just a little addendum to that story. When I got back to the city where I lived, he had since the day we met, we lived in two cities that was there only 90 minutes apart. But you know, that was how it was at that early stage. He had written me a letter every day, on his way to work every morning, he would stop and mail me a letter. What I did not expect was to get back after the funeral. A few days later, and there had been a letter, you know, I had a couple of leaders that I came back to. So he got his final goodbyes, and in a beautiful way of reminding me how loved I was and how I had really contributed to his life. So it’s sometimes there are just surprises and gifts that come that you just you can’t see them coming, you know, and that was something that he did no, you know, I will forever be grateful. Because, you know, it triggered a lot of the past losses as well. And yeah, encouraged me to go back and do some counseling and work my way through it.
Victoria Volk 18:19
And I want to get to that, but I just want to share too how we don’t really understand often the impact that we have on others.
Michelle St Jane 18:32
Yeah, I would like to just share one last loss which has happened during the pandemic and quarantine last year. My best friend, her name is the toil. And she was very close to 100 years old and we’ve been friends for the last nigh on 20 years. And I had been overseas and when I got back I got back in time for the quarantine to kick in and I was unable to go and visit her because she had moved to an assisted living and assisted living complex and they had blocked that and I lost her without being able to connect with her before that happened. So again, if you don’t if you’ll forgive me, but Martha Wetmore Heckman always has the right words. She writes, it’s a bittersweet joy the way our last loves are forever and our hearts and minds, in fact, constant to our consciousness in a way they couldn’t be when they were alive because then we depended on the comings and goings, the highs and lows of being with us, the vagaries of presence and convenience. And again, that is another difficult I know people have lost people during pandemic and and you know, a lot of hardship. The President really is the gift. Therein lies the gift for people who are around us and there is a process of healing that comes after lost. Often we’re too busy with our lives to realize that this is so, so important too.
Victoria Volk 20:02
and with all of your losses. And I know I share this frequently on the podcast, but if it’s your first time hearing this, I, you know, I have to share it again and again. But grief is cumulative, and it’s cumulatively negative. And so all of these losses that you just shared, they stack on each other. And it’s like with every loss, you’re adding another rock to a backpack that you, you know, that we that we that you carry. And so what has healing looked like for you? And how has it changed over the years? I know you’ve you said the psychiatrists, and that was your first experience. And then you mentioned therapy again. But how has that changed over the years? And what does it look like now?
Michelle St Jane 20:44
Thank you for asking. Well, my first two losses were I tried to go join a widow group that didn’t go down too well, because I was way too young. And then I went to a psychiatrist and she said, you’re in the wrong place key proofing. And that gave me the confidence to just get about doing what I needed to do. And then over the years, I’ve done counseling and group work, I’ve found them very helpful. With my grandfather, there was a lot of rage with my losing my husband, again, there was anger and despair. And there are many stages of grief that you need to go through and can go back and repeat. Finally aren’t my husband after he’d been dead about 2025 years I kind of beat up on myself and was like, why is it every October that the three the three days where he went into a coma and we buried him? I literally would go into the doldrums. I couldn’t function I didn’t I couldn’t perform I couldn’t think clearly I felt like I had the flu yet so for like 2025 years, maybe close to 30 years this kept happening and a friend of mine turned around and said Oh get over it get over it, you know announced Why? So I went again into the helping services and found a cat therapists catatonic app therapy, I’m probably not got the right name. But I what I did was I got through her guidance, I got a large canvas and on the front of the canvas, I took lots of photos that I had photocopied, I photocopied lots of all the photos that I could find for my, for the people I’d lost. And on the front of the canvas, I did this beautiful memorial of, you know, the fun things, we’d done the heavy pictures. On the back of it. I aligned it in black lace, and I put all my angry thoughts and everything else. So when it hung on the wall, you could see for my children and family, you could see the good things that I remembered. But on the back, I put all those other theat feelings and that actually, for me that art therapy was enough to move me out of revisiting, like a catatonic event that three days that my husband had died in back in the mid 80s. And that was 25 years later. So my friend gave me a gift of sort of harsh, harsh shove, where I went and found somebody else. Fortunately, I was able to say thank you for your thoughts. I can understand that you feel that way. But I am having a physical, mental, emotional spiritual reaction every year or regardless of journaling and doing all the other things. out of bed alphabet therapy. I was introduced to Martha Whitmore Hitman’s book, daily meditations for working through grief. And the reason that’s been so instrumental is because it means rather than me holding it all together until that October event, it means every day I did a short reading. started my day ended my day, some part of my day, I read one of her meditations, I got a chance to check in, feel some feelings and move on. And I think what my therapist had rightly identified was I just held it together very rigidly until I got to that October and then I just fell over for three days. So of course, I wasn’t too crazy about doing that every day. But I did I did it for probably about 10 years. And then I gifted my book forward. So you know, I know it’s there. I know it’s a way that I can come back to if I have to endure another event like that. I will again look for the gifts and find the right support.
Victoria Volk 24:40
So much in that that you just shared. Thank you for sharing. I want to circle back to mentioned two things, the women’s support group and you being too young for the listeners out there. That’s hogwash, first of all, and shame on the women who said that to you that you were too young. I think that is one of the hurtful and harmful things that we don’t understand or even, like, really, we don’t know, what do we say sometimes, but like you said, it turned out to be a gift for you because it sent you on your path to something better that you need.
Michelle St Jane 25:16
And I might have been revisiting, revisiting with people who were stuck. Also, just to add to that funny story on the end of that was after my husband died, I went and bought a rinky dink old piano from a secondhand store. I play really badly. And because I’ve even told my grandfather’s piano, and attitude piano sounds perfect to me. And I didn’t know better at the time. So Michelle’s secret thoughts embarrassed here. And I another thing that I learned was some when you when you, when you lose a partner like that you don’t sleep. So I started playing this piano, my kids would go to bed, I couldn’t sleep. So I would start playing this piano. It was October and my favorite thing to do was to play Christmas music. And I reiterate, I play really badly. And on an attitude piano. Well, it turned out a couple of doors down on either side of my cottage, were two widows. So although this grief group had sent me on my way, these two women came and introduced themselves and said, Are you okay? And I said, Why? They say you’re playing the piano all night? And I’m like, why are you up? And they’re like, oh, we’re widows. widows don’t sleep. And I went, ah, is that what the problem is? And they’re looking at me? And they’re like, What do you mean? I’m like, my husband just died. And they’re like, oh, keep playing? You’ll get better. We hope the could you tune the piano? Sometimes you find your grief group, or they find you.
Victoria Volk 26:50
That’s a beautiful illustration of that. And did you become close with these women?
Michelle St Jane 26:57
Only for I was only there for about three or four months. And then I because that was my family of origin city, I actually moved back to his family, in another country with my young children, because I knew I wasn’t going to make it with the family dynamics and support that I had New Zealand. So I moved back to where my husband was from with the children, which was actually a very good decision, because we got back in time for Christmas. And Christmas was not going to be celebrated by me. But with such a huge extended family, you know, the kids could be enjoying normality. And I could I have extra support to cope with, you know, loss. Yeah.
Victoria Volk 27:35
And that is the big thing I want people to hear too. And this is that you looked for support.
Michelle St Jane 27:41
Basically, sometimes the long view is not what you need. What you need in this moment without a hostage to the past, or the future, is to experience it for itself alone. So I could not do that with my family. There was too much drama, too many secrets too many. They weren’t coping, my stepfather died only a year before my mother needed room to grieve and her support system.
Victoria Volk 28:05
And sometimes our best support system is not from our family.
Michelle St Jane 28:09
Yes.
Victoria Volk 28:10
And because because we all bring our own experiences and our own perceptions and our own stuff, right. And so if they’re not, oftentimes, in grief recovery, we talk about that person for you being a person that’s a heart with yours. And often they’re not someone that has any skin in our game, which is often family, right? So I do want to ask, if you don’t mind, was that family dynamic with your family dynamic? Was that ever repaired?
Michelle St Jane 28:41
No. And I have to accept the things I cannot change which has my family of origin, they’re doing the best they can with what they have. And it’s not the right place for me to be so I have done my best to to be a part but I’m actually better staying out of it, which could be what their gift was to me, you go rather than being a part of this dysfunction. So for me, I’ve done the best that I could at this stage. I’m very focused on generations that are coming behind me and continuing to upgrade my best self. Yeah.
Victoria Volk 29:20
I like how you said that upgrade your best self. And there’s, you know, I don’t know who said it, but there’s this quote that, you know, the, the five people that you surround yourself with is a reflection of kind of where you’re at in your life. That’s not exactly how it goes. But in order to rise above and let the cream rise to the top of who we are and what our potential is. We do need to surround ourselves with people who will lift us up, and that will support us.
Michelle St Jane 29:50
Absolutely. In fact, it’s interesting you should say that quote, because at the turn of the decade, that was the one I was focusing on Who am I surrounding myself with also My buzzword is you can go through it, you can grow through it. But for me at the end of it, I want to be glowing. Let me move from surviving to thriving.
Victoria Volk 30:10
Oh, I can’t believe you just said that. Because I’ve been saying that on my last few podcasts I have been. It is it’s about going from surviving to thriving, like, you don’t have to be stuck in this prison of the past. And that’s what it is. That’s what happens. Our past is our present, and it is our future until we address it. And so what would you say to people who feel like, I don’t need to go there, I don’t need to dig it up. I don’t need to address it that’s in the past. It’s done. It’s over with, what do you say to that?
Michelle St Jane 30:42
Each person knows what is right for them. And for me, I always respect that thoughts and feelings of visitors, I welcome them, I listen to what they have to say. And I get them to move on, rather than to keep me trapped in the dialogue of repetitive storytelling. So if you do not feel that you need extra support, then maybe you don’t. But if you find yourself saying the same stories over and over again, and every time people see you, you go back to regurgitating the same stories, I suggest you interrupt the stories and get some help.
Victoria Volk 31:20
Well, and that just brings me to my point and that we heal and community. We can’t heal alone. It’s really difficult. Some people might argue that, maybe you can. But you might have another loss. So you might think you’re okay, here’s the caveat of that you think you’re okay, you think you’re holding it together, you think you’re doing all right, until you have another loss. And everything comes back up to the surface again, and you realize, hmm, I’m not okay. But the thing is, is often grief manifests in our bodies and in our lives. And so I want to circle back to to that experience you are having every October, it’s this, the body knows the bodies, I was speaking to us, you had this, this emotional incompleteness that was stuck within your body. And so every October, it was your body, it’s this muscle memory, it’s this body memory. And until we address that, we exhibit behaviors and symptoms in our, like our bodies are talking to us. So if we think of ourselves like a tea kettle, we either implode or we explode, right? So either we resort to, you know, we might have multiple relationships in a short period of time, or gambling or shopping or stuff our feelings with food, or not eating, to have the sense of control in our lives when we feel out of control in our hearts. Or we might be losing our hair, or having like overall body aches and unexplained migraines and all these physical symptoms that we don’t pinpoint to the root, and get to the root and understand that grief. That’s how grief is impacting us. We don’t connect those dots. I didn’t. I didn’t for many years. And so, what were like the physical, how was grief manifesting in your life.
Michelle St Jane 33:19
As I shared with my husband, every, every October, I had three days where I couldn’t function. And, you know, this was when I was at the height of my career, it really became apparent to me, I couldn’t distract myself, I booked the time off, I’d get a spar I’d stay home and hide under the covers. I’d go see accounts, which is how I got to the art therapy. With my grandfather, I just field forward, I needed to get out of this family and go live my life and be the best example of who I could be. With my boyfriend who was killed in the highway accident. That was a little harder because I was blessed that a couple of my girlfriends had come up and gone through the funeral with me. So I wasn’t on my own. Because he did have an ex wife who decided to play the widows. So I was caught in this soap opera of drama. And her two little boys were constantly gravitating to me and I’m like I don’t want to be causing any harm here. That was a little harder. What was more, what also complicated things was the fact that his his accident on the highway, made it on the news. So consequently, the day he died, I was because I was visiting him when the day he died. I was asked to come to a family dinner with and the news was on and I turned around immediately to see the accident, the aftermath of the smashed car hearing. You know and then the family also wanted to go and do a viewing which I didn’t want to do and I ended up being sort of caught in the slipstream of having to go to a viewing and seeing him after he had died. That those two things caused another whole big trigger for me that I couldn’t deal with at that time. It wasn’t the right place. So again, I got counseling to help me work through some of that. But for a while, every time I went on that stretch of highway, I would get chills, I would start to shake for a long time. And in fact, I was in New Zealand for the last five years, and every time I went down that highway, so again, you don’t always know how these things are going to play out, or how long this might take. That’s why I really liked one of Hitman’s quotes about being your own best friend. Because, you know, it’s best if we’re not held hostage to the past, right? for the future. Yeah, yeah. With my friend, he toil who died last year. I mean, that’s on top of trying to deal with a pandemic, or quarantine, geographical transfer. Then I decided to change careers into podcasting. But I could hear her on my shoulders, saying, Oh, you are having so much fun girlfriend, go figure out how to do this, this is where you need to be. So I had those blessings. But I also needed to deal with, I hadn’t managed to see her before she died, not that I expected her to die. Respecting the rules of you know, her residence and things like that. carrying those guilts with me, do not, do not contribute to our future that she would like to celebrate me having.
Victoria Volk 36:38
So how do you celebrate her?
Michelle St Jane 36:41
I talk about her. This is why I gave that first quote. Not only do we have a duty to share the stories, but also to share what people bought to our lives. And I have grandchildren and I speak of their grandfather. And it’s so surprising that my youngest son, who was nine months old, when he died, has two young sons for around three and five. And he is exactly like his dad, he treasures his family, he values his children, his work doesn’t subsume him to the expense of his family. As far as as feasible and the work that he does, so and he looks exactly like his father, he sounds like it’s five or so. You just never know where the gifts are gonna turn up. Right? And you know, I try to share the stories with my grandchildren about their grandfather and things like that, too.
Victoria Volk 37:35
So when your kids were young, when this happened, I just want to ask this because I it just kind of came to my mind right now, when your children would bring up their father as they were growing up, you know, because I and I asked this because I actually heard this one time where a young child had lost her grandfather. And it was the mother’s father and she asked the child to not bring up the grandfather, because it made her sad when she did and I thought my heart just broke when I heard that because here’s this child that just wants to express her loss and share you know, just when’s grandpa coming back or you know, the the under she wants to understand and the mother is just shooting her down and again don’t take this as parents are doing bad and you’re badly or whatever it we do with what we do what we know. Right? And we don’t know what we don’t know. And so it is we’re doing the best that we can in any given situation. And that’s why I’m so passionate about the education piece of of grief so that people can break that cycle because she’s learning in that process. Don’t talk about talk about my your grief, don’t talk about your sadness because it makes mommy sad. So how did you navigate that aspect?
Michelle St Jane 39:06
My husband was such a huge force in our lives. He was huge. He only worked the hours that the children were in school. He was a very big piece. So, sharing the stories keeping it alive, having a having a chapel with their grandmother, his mother and his brothers was very important. And if the children border that well we talked about it I always every Christmas and every birthday I pulled out a birthday book that we had started when our oldest son was born so that came out and he was present and all of those were I did fail was I just couldn’t do Christmas I bought pulled out the Christmas book. But because he died very close to my birthday and Christmas. Those two celebrations got very damp down for me. I didn’t do well with those. Yeah, families with the don’t toy Don’t tell the secrets. As I said, my mother had been fighting with my grandfather. We were not to discuss that. It just built up and a lot of anger inside of me. Yeah, what I didn’t do well was birthdays and Christmases for me. What I did do well was we had birthday and Christmas box of photos. When my kids got much, much older, I did do a decopatch of lots of photos across the years that that involved him as well. So, once they all went 21, I just did a big canvass of photos that included their father. Yeah, my youngest son, he has said, I didn’t know my dad, so I don’t want to talk about him. So, I talked to my grandson, so I can respect that. But I’m not if my grandsons do something that reminds me of their grandfather. I’d be like, oh, let me tell you this story about when, and then I tell some funny stuff, because he was huge. But what I will tell you, which I don’t always navigate particularly well, but actually no, I dodge is even though my husband’s been heads past, well, over 30 years ago, there are still people who will come up to me and ask, how’s Bobby? You know, what’s he up to? And I actually dodged by saying, He’s resting very comfortably. Thank you. Because after 30 years of that, I’m just so over trying to explain that he died decades ago. That’s really tough. Yeah, yeah.
Victoria Volk 41:30
Wow, well, thank you for sharing all of that. What gives you the most joy nowadays?
Michelle St Jane 41:36
Well, I, I certainly took to heart when my husband died, that today is the present. And therein lies the gift. I work. I consciously Try not to take people for granted. And I also consciously address when I start isolating, because isolation for me is evidence of my disease. So, I have to be very aware of that. And of course, with the pandemic and the quarantines and things like that, I can go into cave mode and just you know, be a little philosopher in my own, okay. So, I have to work on things like that,
Victoria Volk 42:11
I can relate to that. Yeah, kind of get in your own head, then. And that’s when we kind of have the committee in her head, and we’re having conversations with the committee in our head instead of giving it out, you know, and whether that’s, you know, for some people, I’m a writer, so that’s how I channel a lot of that. But, you know, sometimes you just need a heart with yours. You know, someone that you can just unleash your heart to, I mean, and that encapsulates a lot like, that’s what grief has taught you. It’s probably also a piece of advice that you would give to right, like, just take a moment to reflect on today.
Michelle St Jane 42:54
Absolutely. I mean, with my grandfather, and my boyfriend suddenly gone with my husband, and my very, very wise, older friend. They’re not prompt tomorrows not promised.
Victoria Volk 43:10
So what is one tip that you would give a hurting heart today?
Michelle St Jane 43:15
I am a mother, she has a book called healing after loss, daily meditations for working through grief. That book has been worth its weight in gold, I did not realize that I was, you know, putting everything in a box for you know, 11 and a half plus months. So having that with other daily reading books was a huge help. That would be my number one tip. What I didn’t get right was there were very long periods where I just shut down and did everything that I had to do and didn’t address the grief. I like to sit it’s cumulative.
Victoria Volk 43:58
Is there anything else you would like to share?
Michelle St Jane 44:01
I would like to celebrate your presence in the world, this is such an important conversation. And it’s not easy to find people to have this with their books, but just having the chance to have community to speak into your listeners ears and share from the heart around this. This some extremely important topic, and I really appreciate you, thank you for your contribution in the world, Victoria.
Victoria Volk 44:29
Thank you for saying that. Yeah, it’s definitely been become really meaningful. Side passion for me for sure. Because we often don’t feel like we have an opportunity to share from a space that we where we won’t be judged criticized or analyzed, where our story won’t be judged, criticized, or analyzed. And so, it is my hope that through Stories like yours, and all the people that bless my podcast and our guests that people take away a sense of hope that you can go from surviving to thriving. I almost think that that needs to be one of my taglines because I’m passionate about that. It doesn’t have to take 30 years for you to wake up to what’s possible, really. It’s never too soon, and it’s never too late.
Michelle St Jane 45:31
Absolutely. And the gifts are in the learning. They’re not promised in the first 30 days, the first year or the first 30 years, they may come. And I think you’re around same music should be the song I played on the piano for many long nights called whispering hope.
Victoria Volk 45:47
I’m going to have to check out that song. Thank you. Yeah, thank you for your presence. Thank you for sharing your stories. Grief goes on, it’s like, and here’s another thing I want to, I would just want to have a little bit of back and forth about is that the sadness doesn’t go away, right? Like, you’re not never going to be sad, that that person isn’t in your life, that your husband isn’t in your life that the lover you had after him isn’t in your life that your friend, your grandfather, like that sadness that we experience and feel that never goes away. I don’t care how enlightened or woke, I mean, that’s kind of a buzzword now, or how much healing you’ve done. I feel like I’ve, I’ve come leaps and bounds from where I was in my 20s. But the seat is always empty. And that sadness is always there. But it’s recovery. From my aspect of it as a grief recovery specialist. Recovery isn’t about forgetting or condoning or letting go. Really, it’s actually got the tattoo on my wrist, let go and let God like, I just wanted to let it go and give it to God. And that wasn’t working, I got a tattoo and it’s like, that didn’t work. I didn’t take action, like there’s action, it’s pray and move your feet. It’s not just pray, it’s pray and move your feet. You know, I don’t care. You know, whatever your religious beliefs are, it doesn’t matter. It’s action. And that’s what helps us get out of that sorrow. That deep sorrow that’s preventing you from moving forward.
Michelle St Jane 47:45
Absolutely. You’ve got to make the path by walking. Nobody can tell you how it can be done. It’s an experience. And your words remind me that the desert doesn’t flow without the rain. So, you can go through it, grow through it. And quite frankly, study mean to glow. You know, get back into the joy of life, a life well lived is the perfect reward for you know, acknowledging those who’ve gone before and you’ve grown on their shoulders, but also, you don’t give up on life yourself.
Victoria Volk 48:14
Yeah, and like another guest had said she felt like she was living a half life. And that’s no, that’s not a life, right? So, thank you so much for sharing. I’ll give you the final word. Anything else you want to share?
Michelle St Jane 48:30
Change the things you can. And that’s yourself, not anyone else. Change things you can, make the path by walking.
Victoria Volk 48:39
I love that. And where can people find you if they’d like to connect with you?
Michelle St Jane 48:43
LinkedIn, Facebook, Instagram. Do you do show notes? Perhaps they can just be added into the show notes.
Victoria Volk 48:50
I do show notes. But where’s your favorite place to be? Where can people find you the most?
Michelle St Jane 48:55
The most would be LinkedIn. And that is under my name, Michelle St. Jean. And yep, this website wtih the podcasts on it. So, I’m looking forward to gifting you next.
Victoria Volk 49:06
Sounds awesome. And I will put all of the links in the show notes, including the reference to that book and anything else that she has shared for contacting her in the podcast as well. And I look forward to being on your podcast again. That podcast is Life and Leadership, a conscious journey. And so yeah, thank you for listening. And remember, when you unleash your heart, you unleash your life. Much love.