Darren Evans | Loss and Legacy

 

SHOW NOTES SUMMARY:

In this episode, Darren shares how loss (and his son) inspired him to create a way to capture life’s most precious moments, support others through caregiving and loving gestures, and leave a legacy for future generations.

After Cloud is, as Darren calls it, a life-tech app; for sharing what needs to be said, capturing what you never want to forget, and connecting with loved ones in a way that is both easy and joy-filled.

Through his losses, which include his older brother as a kid, and his father to cancer, and his mother-in-law to Lewy body dementia, Darren also shares what he’s learned along the way about what’s important to him and what he values. AfterCloud is both a mission of service and one of life preservation. Because we never know when it’s our last day.

RESOURCES:

CONNECT WITH DARREN:

Victoria Volk  00:01
Thank you, thank you for tuning in to an episode of grieving voices. Today, my guest is Darren Evans. He is the CEO and founder of after cloud, which is a digital media app, vault, or app, I suppose, how you describe it, where people can use to celebrate occasions record family history. And his work comes from a deeply rooted loss in his life. And we’ll get more into that. But welcome, Darren, thank you for being here.

Darren Evans  00:36
It’s an absolute pleasure, Victoria, good to be here. Thank you.

Victoria Volk  00:40
So, let’s start there. Tell us about the work that you do.

Darren Evans  00:47
Um, so, I mean, aren’t my work is fairly recent, it’s sort of a timely question about after cloud, it’s a bit of both. It’s an app currently, with a view to being a platform. And what it does is it helps people to capture their moments in multiple content types to create that moment. Right now, actually, it’s being used in dementia related services, in hospice care, older people services as well, and predominantly around activity types. So as an example, if you’ve got an art therapist, or a music therapist, or a therapist providing services, it allows them to capture those moments so that the individual can share those moments with family in a closed group setting. So that’s ultimately what it does. It also has the ability to future post. So potentially posthumous postings. So that’s essentially what after cloud is, but but the journey first started really, when my mother-in-law passed away two years ago. We’re actually working on another app at the time, which was essentially a digital advent calendar. So, my job was my wife’s idea I can’t take credit or responsibility for it was my wife’s idea that she wanted to do something for her sister’s 50th birthday, I think it was at the time. So, when we looked around, there was nothing really much available. So, we started to develop this app. But at the same time, we were counting from my mother-in-law, who had this very aggressive form of Lewy body dementia. And she, she, she died from it, it was very, as I say, very aggressive. And my son, who was 11, at the time said to us, can’t we do something for families or for people that are in a similar predicament? I think what it was is, when she died, we realize that most we had a, you know, lifetime of wonderful memories. There was nothing really tangible or anywhere to go together those things, you know that we’ve got your couple of pictures, and we’ve got, we’ve actually found once one video sense of her dancing in this sort of birthday celebration, I think it was. But that’s it. So, nothing really much. And we thought, you know, we, we don’t really do this in in family circles. I mean, there’s social media, of course, which is public. And there are ways and means to capture different things. But we, when my son said this, the light bulb went and, you know, as I say, I’ve been working in health and social care for 20 years. And I reached out to people. And once there’s lots of clinical systems in place, there wasn’t really anything for the individual. And that was really where we were looking at initially, that end of life space really.

Victoria Volk  03:53
As you were talking, I was reflecting on to thinking back to I don’t know if you’ve seen it at all, but and I’ve referenced it a couple times and blog posts and things, but have you seen or heard of the Netflix docu series surviving death?

Darren Evans  04:09
I haven’t. We have we we have a similar model. I don’t know if it’s similar at all. But Ricky Gervais has a Netflix serie, After Life. Oh, and it’s an I’ve only seen any sort of become aware of it, I guess in the last six or 12 months, but certainly someone pointed out to me that, oh my gosh, your app looks similar to to Ricky Gervais’s afterlife. And when you watch the series, you’ll see his wife has created these videos for him for when she’s gone. You know, don’t forget to do the washing on this degree and don’t forget that you’ll need to redo the insurance or renew the insurance on this date and little things that will help him assist Obviously from his Greek perspective, he is constantly looking at these videos. Just to sort of stay in touch, I guess, with his with his wife. But I’ve not seen the other one that you mentioned, no.

Victoria Volk  05:12
Yeah, it’s only six episodes. But every episode is a different aspect of end of life. So, there’s a couple episodes on talking about mediums. There’s one on reincarnation, there’s one specifically on end of life like seeing, like, the visions and things that people see towards the end of life. And I know we talked briefly before but going into end-of-life doula training coming up soon, I can see where this would be such a value piece that I can mention and give as a resource for loved ones, too. Because is this correct? It’s, it’s almost like, like, it can be like a family group, sort of thing to.

Darren Evans  06:03
Yeah, sort of, I mean, that’s that that’s certainly where we’re going right now, the individual can invite people into their circle. So that closed group setting, so it’s secure. But it’s an invite only. So as an individual, download the app, and then you invite your relatives into your circle. And you can do you know, that works both ways, of course. But what we’ve also built into the app is the ability for a companion. So, there are essentially three, use the types of currently anyway, three use type. So, you’ve got the individual patient, the loved one, a family member, and then a companion. And that companion effectively is a doula or some or end of life practitioner that can assist with, you know, helping someone with their content if they’ve not got the ability to do it themselves. And interestingly, I was I was last March, I was invited on to one of the basic doula foundation courses here in the UK. So, So I’ve kind of been through that process myself, and it was all new to me, I have to say I was very emotional, as well, to you know, just to learn to go through those processes. I was very fortunate to be invited by Felicity Warner, who runs absolved midwives here in the UK. And it’s fascinating. I’ve never actually heard the term doula before in my life. So it wasn’t, it was new to me.

Victoria Volk  07:27
I actually hadn’t either.

Darren Evans  07:29
No. Its interesting, isn’t it?

Victoria Volk  07:30
Yeah, I saw the term death doula. And I’m like, oh, what’s a death doula?

Darren Evans  07:35
It does sound harsh, doesn’t it? It’s even to me now I find it harsh, which is why I say end of life practitioner because it’s got that gentle kind of tongue tone to it. But yeah, death doula. So, it was new to me, as I say they call them soul midwives, soul companions and other things here in UK. But yeah, yeah. Completely enlightened by actually.

Victoria Volk  07:58
Can we bring up a little bit about because you touched on it before we started recording, but I’m interested in like, the cultural differences, because you’re in the UK. And you kind of touched on a little bit about how, you know the culture, there is a little bit stiff upper lip when it comes to feelings and emotions. And I can tell you in in German country, it’s no different. No, I’m in the German heritage background area. And it’s no different. But I’m curious how that has played out in your grief.

Darren Evans  08:36
Yeah, just a quick question, then then consider checking off

Victoria Volk  08:40
just a little bit. A little bit, or should I say Ich liebe dich, I love you.

Darren Evans  08:44
Yes, I mean, I lived I lived in Germany for a little bit, which is why I asked the question. There. Yeah. Yeah. So, I guess to answer your question, yeah, I find it you know, I’ve been having these, these conversations now across the globe, really, in relation to off the cloud, with end-of-life practitioners, clinicians, lots of different people that are involved in end of life care or, or dementia care or, or palliative care in the community. And culturally, I find it a little bit more advanced in Australia, and the US, and Canada. Predominantly, I think those three markets really are leading in terms of that interdisciplinary approach to end-of-life care. So that holistic kind of joined up approach. I think there’s a bit more forward. In the UK, I think we’re a little bit behind the curve. We, I mean, Cicely Saunders, obviously created hospice hospice care here in the UK, you know, and that model has now been reflected, you know, across the globe, but I think we’re very much practitioner or clinician led at end of life in the UK and we’ve got a little bit of catch Up to do with I think sometimes just letting go and letting people who have that compassion or that empathy to apply practical end of life experiences both for the individual and for family members but but uh but you know that’s a personal opinion. There’ll be a lot that disagree with that. And I you know and that’s that’s for them to disagree with, but I think having these conversations you do get a sense of where the community I don’t like pulling our market, but the certainly the community is leading and paving the way and as I say, Australia, Canada, USA, for sure.

Victoria Volk  10:35
There is a doctor too on that surviving death series. researcher and you know, he’s very much academic, but mentions us in Europe, and I say he’s in the UK as well. But but in Europe, I can’t remember exactly where but he does mention that to know, it’s this very, death is like this. It’s almost I don’t I can’t even explain how, yeah, I’m not sure how he worded it. So I get it wrong, no matter what I say. alluded to the same thing you did anyway.

Darren Evans  11:05
Yeah, I think because it is the unspoken word. I mean, even now. You know, we have we have a guest book, The D word, just to do to it. And you know, there’s a there’s a health radio, UK health radio show called the D word as well, because I think he we don’t use that word. And, you know, part of our process, certainly, part of what we see is our responsibility for after cloud is that we normalize it, we normalize the word, you know, this is something I found out as well through conversation, but around the bend. If you’re going around the bend, that’s an old phrase for mental illness. And that’s because in Victorian times, they placed we call them hospitals, but they placed them around the bend. So they’re out of the way out of eyesight from the general population. And that’s that meant, you know, if you were going around the bend, you were going to a mental institution, and again, it’s that sort of Victorian, you know, again, I think, morbidity as an example. So if someone died back in Victoria, you were aware of someone grieving because they were all in black, they were dressed in black, the curtains would be shut, whereas we don’t have that. Now, nowadays, you don’t know if someone’s grieving, unless they tell you specifically, we don’t we don’t we don’t mourn the way we used to mourn with the curtain shut and wearing black times are changing. And as I say, I think this period that we will find ourselves in, we found ourselves in through COVID, as kind, I’ve already said, but mentioned that in everybody is now fully implicitly where there are mortality, because it’s been presented to us by the media, you know, front and center stage in a multitude of colors. And I think that it’s it’s, it’s horrid time as it may be, but it’s but it’s it, I think it’s lessened the impact of the word death. And it’s starting to normalize the compensation for the general general population.

Victoria Volk  13:06
And one of my missions to starting this podcast was to get men to help society talk about grief, like we talked about the weather, and it’s an intro, because that’s it, that is about normalizing it, hearing other people’s stories, and that’s how we relate is their story. And we see ourselves in other people’s stories. And if people feel a sense of hope, after they listen to someone’s story on my podcast, that’s really what I’m what I’m shooting for. So your app would be hope for someone who’s in the process or experiencing, you know, someone who’s going through a terminal illness or like dementia or something like that.

Darren Evans  13:50
I was gonna say that’s an interesting one as well, because when we started this journey, as I mentioned, it was from a grief place. It was initially directed at end of life. And when we started our early discussions with people in hospice care, or in palliative care in the community, they don’t want to talk about death. They’re aware of the process they’re going through, but they absolutely don’t want to talk about death, or that that journey, people with dementia are aware that they’re losing their memory slowly but surely, and they’re more than happy to talk about that journey. And they’re more than happy to have those conversations and have the appropriate planning in place. So it’s, I found that fascinating myself actually, just those those two channels of thought. So we have slightly realigned it to open it up to more of a life tech kind of app. Because it is it you know, we’ve got, we’ve got my to give you two instances, interestingly, at one dealer in the states that two weeks into the beta became a grandmother. So her daughter started capturing moments within off the cloud. In the beta form of that process, so we’ve there’s a child there in the states that is now 15 weeks old that is being captured, or her moments of being captured the really important moments of being captured, which is fantastic. We have another doula Karen in New Zealand, who said, Actually, I’m going to turn this around and show my parents how they’ve impacted my life, not the other way around. So we sit more of a life tech app as opposed to the other end of the spectrum.

Victoria Volk  15:27
Well, here’s the thing we don’t know when our time is, right?

Darren Evans  15:31
No, we really don’t know. I’ve been posting more recently, actually is, what if today is your last? Or what if there are no more no more tomorrow’s it’s kind of a little bit like, I don’t like phrasing it like this. But insurance is kind of I want to create those moments or write those letters that I want to write before it’s too late. So let’s do it. Let’s just put them at least start capturing them.

Victoria Volk  15:54
I love that it’s like is that it could be a way to document your life.

Darren Evans  15:59
Yeah, yeah, we’ve got people that are journaling, storytelling. As I say, art therapy, music therapy, music is fast, fascinating. Because with the music therapist that we’re working with, in fact, one in particular, actually, Sandra, who’s in Ireland, she shows album covers to her to the patients in the hospital, is actually a nursing home. But she, she shows them album covers, and of course, it instinctively takes them back to that day that they might have played the album with their friends or family. Them she’ll pick a track from the album and play the track for them. And again, it invokes those emotions that they had at that time. So straightaway, it takes them back to that to that occasion. And, of course, it can be captured there. And then and shared with family and friends. We’re doing a bit of work in VR as well, because VR does a similar thing. You know, virtual reality headsets where it can take someone back to a time or a place, or location, and really invoke those memories. There’s a lot of research actually taking place in that in that area now from a psychological perspective. So the potential is that we’re working with various universities, from a cost psychology perspective on on that process. I mean, it’s early days yet, but that’s that’s certainly where it’s going, I think.

Victoria Volk  17:15
Dr. Kris Kerr, he is in that surviving death series. And he is he’s a palliative hospice care doctor. And so he had done a lot of research in end of life experiences of his patients, and documented what they were seeing and experiencing leading up to no, as they were beginning their transition with terminal illness. Yeah. And he actually referenced something, you had just what you just said something. And that made me think of that, but he has, in his TED Talk, he talks about a soul, an older gentleman who’s dying, and he was a soldier he was, and World War Two. And one of his visions was, it was very traumatic for him. He was having these flashbacks of, because his job was to transport the bodies. And his visions were really traumatic. And then they switched. And a soldier came to him and said, soon they will be coming for you. But it was a very comforting thing. And the vision, the affordable vision stopped, that horrible dream stopped, and suddenly he felt comforted by his comrades were coming for him. It’s just a really beautiful illustration of how the deeply rooted pains in our hearts come back to us as we’re transitioning to us, in a way, spiritually, on a soul level. Yeah. I mean, we could go very deep there, but I think I just made me think of that. I don’t know why.

Darren Evans  19:00
Well, no, I think we’re talking about trauma. I think there’s gonna be a lot of trauma related, Post Traumatic Stress Disorder from frontline workers, you know, they’ve been going through what the hell, I wouldn’t say that the sheer amount of work and exhaustion that they’re seeing currently, and this is, you know, everybody that’s involved in that provision of care are exhausted, they’re exhausted. And what a fantastic job they’re all doing. It’s just incredible, but I do foresee a need a huge need for them to be supported. When we do eventually come out of this horrible time. I think it’s imperative that they get the support. Whether it’s holidays or you know, rest and recuperation, as we used to call it in the in the in the forces, you’ll know that. I think it’s fundamentally important that they’re supported in his best way they can possibly be supportive because they’ve been doing a tremendous job. Yeah, but I think so. Post Traumatic Stress, I know whether or not that that that comes for three grief as well, again, I don’t know, but you you’re probably best placed to serve me.

Victoria Volk  20:06
In grief recovery, we say that trauma is what happens in grief is what’s left.

Darren Evans  20:10
Yeah. And I think that shock as well.

Victoria Volk  20:13
So I’m curious then how are you using this app in your life?

Darren Evans  20:19
And that’s a great question because we are so close to it, most of the time it was test. So, test, test, test, and I’ve been capturing all sorts of things. Just yesterday, as an example, we went out for quite a lengthy walk in the countryside. Just to get that fresh, I mean, it’s cold, but just to get that fresh air, but we took some video footage there. And then what we tend to do those we post it for the following day off within a few days, which is, which is great. I mean, it’s still there, it’s in draft or it’s published, it’s either or, but we know we have that content. And again, my son, and my wife actually wanted me to give my son a piggyback, just getting captured that sort of moment really, of being in being so we do things like that as family. But most of the time it’s actually test, as opposed to sort of my life moments. I think that’s because I’m really, really close to the app, I guess. But you know, I have written letters, just to just to give an example, you within within the app itself, you can search create a moment, you can upload an image, you can upload a video, or take a video in app, you can record your voice. You can write or dictate a letter, or all of those things combined, to make a moment. So what we’ve what we say to people is imagine you’ve got an old photo. Well, that’s great. That’s an old photo, but what memories does it invoke what you know, tell us about the time that that happened? And of course, you can embellish that with it with an audio or, or a letter if you wanted to, just to explain it. I mean, we’ve got I digress away from the question, but we’ve got people that now one patient that that’s in our working group, his mum gave him some recipes. And so he wants to maintain the family recipes. And given to his kids. He’s also writing goodbye letters as well, they want to call it goodbye letters. I spoke to somebody else about this last week. And maybe they should be Hello letters, unoccupied letters. So again, it’s just a different take on it. But you can use it for all sorts of things. We are ourselves capturing video, really an audio, a little bit of audio as well, because again, it’s the voice that strap mine that we have on our website. It’s her voice I miss the most I wish I could hear her again. Those words are actually from one of our board advisors, Roberta Chela, who she’s head of quality of life in hc one is sort of one of the largest residential providers here in the UK. But she lost her mum at a very young age, I guess similar to yourself. And I think she was 12 but she had a tape recording of a voicemail of her mum, and she lost the tape. And that’s a story in itself. In fact, she Roberta is going to be writing for us later in the year as a guest blog, all about that journey and all about that story. But when I started speaking to Roberta about this and she told me this I wrote it down. And it just encapsulates everything that after cloud is about it’s I have her voice I miss the most I wish I could hear her again. And of course, you can with after cloud if you capture it now it’s there for posterity. It’s there for future generations.

Victoria Volk  23:53
Yeah, well and I can say to I wish I would love to hear my dad’s voice.

Darren Evans  23:59
Hmm. Do you have many memories? Do you have you know footage or?

Victoria Volk  24:04
there’s no video and all of my I maybe have 10 pictures? Yeah. mean? My question though, is to I can see this as being something helpful for busy moms, young kids that may not necessarily have maybe the financial means to purchase a nice camera or video, like a video camera or something like that. And we all have our phones but you know, you get your pictures in one app, you got your videos that for someone who might be terrible about printing day because I was I was a photographer and my kids my youngest always reminds me that she’s got no baby book. And her siblings have like a baby book in the scrapbook. But yeah, the printing thing is an issue for me. So how Notice that I’m asking for myself. So to document my children’s birthdays or school concert or, you know, an accomplishment or something like that, how does that work? Like, how can you print from it? And is it a monthly subscription? Like, do you like how does that work? Like, do you have access as long as you are a subscriber? Or how does that work?

Darren Evans  25:28
Yeah, that’s a great question. So, I’ll answer the first question for the first part of the question first, and then I’ll come on to subscriptions. So printing is just well, as an example, you have your phone, you mentioned already, you can print from phone, just just by hooking it up with a USB or whatever you can, you can, you can do that for sure. All of those moments you, you catch up in app. So, as I say, whether it’s an image of video voice, or a letter, and letters can be dictated in app as well. So, you can speak to the app. And it will dictate your letter, you might have to edit little bits, depending upon, you know, your voice saw accent or tonation. But you can do all that in app. So that’s that’s the first thing to create that moment, or multi, multiple content types to create the moment in relation to subscription model, yes. So, it will be free, there will be a free base version for everybody to make use of absolutely, really, really imperative to us that there is that free model for people to utilize. But then, depending upon your needs and requirements. We embellish that product range as a subscription-based model. But again, very, very affordable, subscription-based model. Of course, that’s not released yet and won’t be released. Now, I don’t think until about maytime, which possibly might coincide with the Airdate of this podcast.

Victoria Volk  26:51
Yeah, yeah.

Darren Evans  26:54
But we, that’s the sort of that’s the sort of timeline we’re looking at at the moment. The beta is currently 15 weeks in trial. Fantastic feedback from with just Friday, had our first video interview, which is a dementia patient, who’s also a patient advocate. And he loves it. He thinks it’s fantastic for dementia patients, which I’m really, really proud of actually have to say. It’s Yeah. Fabulous. Doing something positive for someone. Yes. Tremendous. But yeah, subscription-based model, depending upon needs and requirements. I think from an ethical standpoint, we’re only going to guarantee 10 years. And I mean that in a genuine way in that I think it would be wrong averse to stipulate lifelong 199 years or, you know, I am aware of another platform, which this got these 99 years. And I think well, how can you absolutely say that you? Who knows what’s gonna happen tomorrow, but certainly 10 years, I think is, is a generalization and you can capture today. So going back to this, the anniversaries and the birthdays and those scenarios that you mentioned, I can, I mentioned already, my mom’s birthday is in September, and she’s gonna be 81. I could record a video message today and publish it for the first of September, which is my mom’s birthday. Knowing that she’s going to get that on her birthday and not before.

Victoria Volk  28:22
For me, I like that. Its just forgetting and especially those first of the month, birthdays that kind of sneak up on you and you flip the calendar, it’s like, shoot.

Darren Evans  28:34
it’s one of those things you can do whenever you feel comfortable about doing it and not have to worry about it again, you know, it’s, but But yeah, I think if you know, your daughter’s play at school, absolutely capturing in in the app, taking video, or different types of content, however you want to do that. And then it will be saved as a draft, but you can publish it and you can publish it to your daughter if you wanted to. Or you can publish it to yourself either the following day, or anytime in the future, knowing full well it will be there captured and safe in the cloud, as in after cloud.

Victoria Volk  29:11
So, tell me about the name.

Darren Evans  29:13
Yeah, that’s, that’s a great question. So, it was actually my CTO, Anthony came up with the name after cloud, which I thought was fantastic. It’s sort of we were toying with treasured for a while, as in, you know, a box full of treasures. And we were talking about with the name initially for it. For us, it was imperative that every stakeholder was catered for. So not only the individual, but also the loved one. So we have this grief cafe, as well as a support mechanisms community based support mechanism, so free to attend once a month, and is actually growing this community. But the name after cloud was was as I say, we were just chatting away one day, over coffee talking about the app talking about iteration Have the app. So before lockdown, so this was last sort of February time. And he said the word off after, after, after cloud on as soon as he said it, I kind of wrote it down. So that is it. That’s that’s just a fantastic article app. And that’s it. Yeah. And it’s been after kind of since we did it was called my off the cloud because of the URL. But then we realized, actually, the URL can remain my off the path because it’s yours. But the app itself is off the cloud.

Victoria Volk  30:30
Well, and if you have a group, it’s kind of our after cloud,

Darren Evans  30:37
Yeah. Yeah. It’s everybody’s off the cloud. That’s, I think that’s another Yeah, it’s a really good point.

Victoria Volk  30:44
So, let’s bring back the story to your mother-in-law. And that experience and what I mean, you kind of spoke to what prompted the creation of the app, but you care to speak more about that loss?

Darren Evans  31:03
Yeah, I think it was really the first grief journey that I’ve had close to us, I guess, in quite a while. I mean, my dad died. My dad suffered from cancer. I think when when I was six months old, they gave him six weeks to live. Yeah.

Victoria Volk  31:23
I’m so sorry.

Darren Evans  31:04
No, its life is part of life, isn’t it? And I think, you know, my, if I look at my life, actually, talking about grief. I lost my mum. I didn’t use my mum; my mum lost her son. So, I was four years old, and my older brother, I have two older brothers. And I lost one of my older brothers through a road traffic accident, he was knocked over by a car. And he was only seven at the time. So, the trauma that she went through as a mum, I just can’t imagine. I wouldn’t want to imagine. But I know that she was heavily traumatized at the time. But she had a child, two children, an older one and a young one to take care of, and kind of got on with life, I guess, in that respect. But my dad cancer really lifelong. From the time I was born, but to say six months old, again, six weeks to live. And he turned and said to my mom, she will vouch for me when she says this. Well, I’m not gonna go anywhere. Yeah, I’m gonna wait till my kids are old enough to look after themselves. And he did. We all grew up. He went through radiation. He lost his bottom jaw. Yeah, yeah. He was really one of the very early pioneers of radiation treatment for cancer therapy comes from the throat. And, but also skin grafts and things like I mean, skin grafts and operation after operation and trying to, you know, put his face back together, really, I guess, but none of that worked. And was he able to talk he was able to talk? I can understand him, whatever he said, and I think that’s why he liked having me around from time to time, you know, and I mentioned to you before I went off and joined the army and came back and he was, you know, he wouldn’t go out much, because people would stare. But with me, he feels protected, I guess, to an extent. So that was nice. Yeah, but but so. Yeah, I guess my grief journey has been lifelong. I think you’re my mother-in-law died two years ago, impacted more, I think on my wife. It’s really her first major loss. She didn’t lose her dad, again, through cancer a few years back, but I think losing her mum, in such an aggressive through such an aggressive disease, as Lewy body dementia is. Well, it was in this in this occasion, it doesn’t have to be I mean, I know people that have Lewy body dementia that had it for 10 years and are still living well. Even though they there is a cognitive decline. But But through this, it was very, very quick. And so, my wife, I think it’s impacted my wife more. And still does because grief, as you know, is a lifelong journey. And as, you know, my son as well, because it was him that, you know, spark sparked sincere interest about after cloud. Again, I can’t really take full credit or responsibility for it. It was it was he was the one that sort of intimated wouldn’t be grateful to do something for other people in similar predicament. So yeah,

Victoria Volk  34:44
Thank you for sharing that. I mean, I could talk more with the loss of your father because it just fascinates me that he was able to survive that long, but I just want to highlight though, and just kind of reflect back to you that if he never left the house or he, you know, wouldn’t leave the house that would have that alone, restricted the experiences you could have had with him to not. I mean,

Darren Evans  35:13
yeah, yeah, I think he probably did. But he did. I mean, he worked. Even even with with this facial disfigurement. He worked, you know, he, he carried on, he just, he was assigned, you know, ex-soldier himself, but he carried on working, you know, and he works in a college. And I would imagine that he probably gets stared at time and time and time and time again, I think what he didn’t do was go out socially, you know, restaurants or those types of environment, he would go to work and come home. And you know, I’d sit up and watch him come in. And in that sense, everything was quite normal. And I didn’t know anything different, apart from, you know, he was my dad. And as I say, I found it easy to comprehend and understand him because I’d always known him, but for the people, they would struggle. And I think towards towards the latter part of his life, it was worse. But I think that’s because he maybe got lazy. I don’t know. I think maybe just you there comes a point when you just, I’m not going to repeat myself again, because I’ve already said that once. But I got it. Straight away. I knew what he was saying he kind of, you know, yeah. But as I say, I didn’t start didn’t know anything different, I guess.

Victoria Volk  36:33
I suppose. Yeah, I suppose if you’re pretty much born into that experience, you wouldn’t know when you make the distinction to have loose body dementia, versus, like, dementia that maybe most people are familiar with?

Darren Evans  36:52
I’m not an expert in any way shape, or form in dementia, or Alzheimer’s or any relief related disease, only that with my mother-in-law, when I say aggressive, two years, probably from that initial, okay, something’s not quite right here to death. And in that sense, it was it was quick. And I think, latterly those those last sort of few months, we were so my, my, my wife and my sister in law were was sort of caring, they were caring for my mother in law, the primary care is essentially, and we were sharing that responsible responsibility between us as families, you know, mom would spend a little bit of time in our house here, and then we drive an hour and a half, two hours. And swap, swap, swap over the rolls, just to give each other a bit of respite, because it is, it’s hard work. You care with empathy and compassion. It’s my mother in law. But my wife probably needed that break every two or three weeks, you know,

Victoria Volk  38:01
Because you’re grieving during that process too because you’re losing a little bit of that person every day.

Darren Evans  38:06Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. And I look back now, and I wish we had alpha cloud, then really, that’s not a plug, it’s just, if we’ve captured some of those moves, I remember Actually, I remember vividly walking my mother-in-law at the front of her house, just up and down the road. Because slowly but surely, she was losing the ability to do that. So, we do that and I give her a bar of chocolate, she loved eating chocolate. So, I’d say you know, there’s there’s been chocolate and a scarf for one sheet of face would light up because she knew that, you know, there’s a reward at the end of it for chocolate, you know, and I know it sounds harsh, but it was a great way of kind of maintaining that ability to do something. And of course, that that slowly declined as well. But we, I guess, towards the end, anything we could do with whether whether it was a small pot or yoga or or, or a chocolate-based mousse, or something because you start to lose, I think Lewy Body Anyway, you start to lose that cognitive ability to swallow to taste to function. And of course, if that’s happening, you can see it physically on the outside, internally, it must be a whole week worse. And of course, that’s it’s a steady regression. It’s a steady decline. As I say, I’m not an expert, far from it, but I do talk to experts and I do talk to a lot of people that are, you know, providing specialist dimension-based care. So, I kind of learn little bits here and there.

Victoria Volk  39:40
I worked in a nursing home when I was a teenager and there was a devoted Alzheimer’s unit specifically for Alzheimer’s residents. Yeah, I just I can’t imagine what that is like to care for someone a loved one. That’s losing a little bit of every day in the grieving starts. And I think that’s true with terminal illness too. You know, what’s, you know what’s coming. But at least with terminal illness, you have a cognitive that doesn’t come in and out.

Darren Evans  40:16
No, no, yeah, we’re doing for some fascinating work in older people services, then with your virtual reality headsets. And taking people back to those moments in time where they can enjoy themselves. Even when they’ve not got a tremendous amount of cognitive ability. There might be some the chair as an example, in the nursing home, they can still be taken back to that magical moment, and you can still put a smile on their face. I love that. I mean, that, for me is just heartwarming, I, all of those things, the more we can do for people, the more we can just have that empathy and compassion and put the smile back on my face, the better in my view, and I’m all for the dignity.

Victoria Volk  41:01
What is your grief experiences taught you?

Darren Evans  41:06
Oh, that’s a question. For me, I think it’s just having the understanding, really, and even more so for employers interesting. I mean, I, we posted a blog post, just recently, and I wrote a personal piece about the actual guest posts, because I experienced grief in the workplace in a corporate environment. And nobody knew nobody understood, nobody even asks, asked, actually, they couldn’t really care. And I’m sure they could have known but they didn’t necessarily care. And I think it’s a duty of all employers to have the duty of care really, for their employers, you know, if you’ve got someone that is bereaved, or in a state of shock, through grief, they’re not going to be performing at the best or they they’re not going to be producing the goods, so to speak, or the numbers. And so the one thing I’ve learned is, as an employer, to have that respect, to give people the time that they need and the space they need, I think, to grieve. And that’s different for everybody, or at least the support mechanisms to assist people to grieve because again, I think that that’s something that’s, that’s, that’s missing, I think, really in the modern workplace. And of course, we’re all grieving now, aren’t we? Not through bereavement, but just grief of loss? You know, we were grieving for the little simple pleasures that we once took for granted. You know, I mean, wouldn’t it be great just to go to a coffee shop and have a coffee and sit down with a slice of cake? I mean, that just that simple pleasure.

Victoria Volk  42:52
Sit in a coffee shop? Yeah?

Darren Evans  42:55
We can’t do it, you know, when we were in lockdown, or in the UK, certainly, we’re in lockdown. Everything shut. And, and this is now the third lockdown that we’ve had. And I think from a mental perspective, as well, so mental health and well being, it’s gonna affect people, isn’t it? I think there’s going to be fallout from that.

Victoria Volk  43:12
This is never gonna end. Like, if you don’t see the light, yeah, you don’t feel or see this light at the end of the tunnel. And I just want to highlight the point that you said about employers, because thank you for saying that. And I think it’s, it’s looking at that role that you play as an employer as one with compassion and empathy. Because I gave a talk, actually, to my company, about grief and bereavement and, you know, most employers only offer or days, bereavement time or days. Yeah, all right, back at it lickety split, join like

Darren Evans  43:51
madness, absolute madness, I think really, for me, in a corporate environment, and I’m talking, you know, large employers that that have, you know, an extensive workforce, there should be an appropriately qualified bereavement officer, you know, call it a chief bereavement officer, they got, they got Chief Information Officers, chief executive officers, they got chief financial officers, they got chief officers for everything, but not bereavement. Why?

Victoria Volk  44:18
You know, maybe I should pitch myself to my company. Hey, why not? Yeah, my own job within the company.

Darren Evans  44:24
But what do I think, I think? I think employees need to take responsibility. They take responsibility in every other aspect of our life, they pay us our wages and etc, etc. that needs to be ownership, I think in terms of grief as well. To get the best from your workforce,

Victoria Volk  44:42
it’s just caring, just caring.

Darren Evans  44:46
It really is being human.

Victoria Volk  44:49
Yeah, kindness and caring. Go back to the basics. Like, think of empathy is like the ability to put yourself in someone else’s shoes. What would you need? What would you hope For, yeah, and I think too, that’s where I’m glad the conversation around grief is starting to change, and people are talking about it more, because more people then gain an understanding that it’s not about picking yourself up from your bootstraps, and, you know, driving on, it’s just a part of life, you know, that life death life, you know, we’re all gonna die, you know, this cold is called disconnected approach to our mortality. But also, then, that’s also looking at other people’s losses that that way as well, it’s distancing yourself from being vulnerable with someone, getting in that space with them, being comfortable getting in that space with them, and a lot of people are very uncomfortable doing that, because they haven’t connected within themselves and what they have lost.

Darren Evans  45:56
Yeah, that’s fascinating, you know, because I think it’s, you mentioned the here and now and having those meaningful conversations. It absolutely is about that. I started to well up when I was talking about my dad, you know, in taking him out and it cost there’s there’s that emotion because it took me right back to that of how he must feel. Yeah, so that’s, that’s something I’ve got to look at, I think inwardly, too, because it does it kind of evokes that emotion. Yeah, yeah. But no, having these meaningful conversations, being in here, and now present, as a human to human. I think it’s really, really important for everybody. Really, really, hmm.

Victoria Volk  46:38
So, during those days, when it was really difficult for your wife, or your family, I kind of liked to ask to like, what, what does give you joy, like what? In all the grief that you’ve experienced, throughout your grief, experience, what is giving you the most joy, and hope for the future?

Darren Evans  47:02
I think it’s the simple things in truth, I think it’s the little things that we just probably take for granted. My son, as an example, turns 13, this week, that gives us joy, no idea where the time is gone. But my wife, and I’ve been planning meticulously to try and do something nice, Ronnie, it’s a different way of living the kids I, I fear for them in terms of their mental stability as well, because, you know, they, they’re not seeing friends at school, they’re not having those interactions that we had as kids, but I do I am very, very thankful for technology. He, he is gamer. And there’s a little clique of gamers that you know, pretty much daily, certainly after school, when the works done, they will all just, you know, the play ship or thieves or mine call one of those get, you know,

Victoria Volk  47:54
My son is too.

Darren Evans  47:56
Yeah, it’s beyond me. But again, just talking to parents, as well is, thank goodness, they’ve got that, that, you know, they they’ve still got that ability to connect with each other, even virtually, you know, in this type of environment, but they’re still, you know, problem solving as an example in games. You know, they’re still using that sort of similar behavior to problem solve, which is fantastic. I see it as a benefit with a my wife agrees with me on that. I don’t know. But But yeah, I see it as a benefit for going back to your question. I think just the little things, really what gives us joy, for me seeing a smile on my wife’s face, knowing she’s grieving, knowing she’s still going through those hardships, that grief journey can take you down or on. And, you know, as is peaks and troughs, and you’ll know this yourself up and down, up and down, depending upon scenario. But it’s understanding that and have an empathy for that really, and not reacting. Or at least understanding that it’s probably grief that he’s doing this. But yeah, I think just just knowing that there will be a time when we do get back to normality of some description, that’s something to look forward to, I think, for all of us, and hope for the future. You know, hope that you know, people will have more empathy. When we come out of this. I’ve seen it myself during this time that people have been a lot more connected families have been more connected more than ever, actually. Even in a virtual environment. You know that when we had the first lockdown, you saw families having quiz nights together. I mean, they’re not as common now actually. But initially having Quizlet that was never even thought of before when none of us did this as families. families were quite disconnected and unless it was a wedding or a funeral or some kind of family celebration, you wouldn’t just connect really now as an example I find my mum every day I speak to every day I can see her every day on my video on phone, choose off cloud interest in the so she’s writing things for me but Connect with my brothers. I got two brothers younger and an older mentioned we lost the one but my younger brother who was nine years between us and this six years to my older brother, we’ll all get together on a chat with my mom. We didn’t we’d never done that ever before. And had it not have been for this time. I don’t think we ever would. So there are there are some good things that have come out of this as well, I think and I think that connectivity that humanity, compassion, the kindness that we’ve all seen, I hope that Well, I hope that that carries on. I hope it continues. I hope that people don’t lose that.

Victoria Volk  50:35
Let that be the virus that spreads, right?

Darren Evans  50:39
Oh, I’m gonna write that down. That’s brilliant.

Victoria Volk  50:43
Quote me on that then.

Darren Evans  50:46
I will indeed I will click on that. That’s fantastic.

Victoria Volk  50:49
Let joy and love be the virus that spreads.

Darren Evans  50:52
Yeah, I know. That’s it. That’s it. Twitter isn’t so kind of tweet, I think that comes out of this. Yeah, I think we put some more. Yeah, I’m going to leave that for you. That’s your quote. And I think it’s a fantastic quote.

Victoria Volk  51:04
You can you can put it anywhere and just put my name on it. That’s fine.

Darren Evans  51:08
I could do indeed, that joy and love be the virus that spreads.

Victoria Volk  51:13
Or may joy and love be the virus that spreads.

Darren Evans  51:16
May joy and love be the virus like it’s post pandemic.

Victoria Volk  51:20
Now, just just overall. Yeah,

Darren Evans  51:24
yeah. Now, that’s a lovely, lovely thought. But I say, you know, just just that compassionate empathy. I mentioned earlier that I’ve been volunteering since since the outbreak. So just in my local community and the way I live in small village, and we have so many volunteers that give their time freely to help others. And only again, I don’t think we’d have seen that had it not been for a pandemic. So again, hope that continues. I hope that that human connectivity continues because they love it. I just thank you for the work that you do. Oh, no, thank you for yours. I think it’s having these conversations is really, really important. I think it really, really important. And, yeah, God bless you as well.

Victoria Volk  52:12
So where can people reach you? If they would like to connect with you?

Darren Evans  52:17
Okay, great. I’m on LinkedIn, Darren Evans. They can email me Darren at the logic that’s DYLOGIC. code at UK. My son’s name is Dylan, hence the D logic. Because he’s always applying it has been from a young age. The website is myaftercloud all one word. So myaftercloud.com. And again, you can register on the site. And the app is downloadable through the app store. So, after cloud as an app.

Victoria Volk  52:53
I will link all of that in the show notes as well. Is there anything else you’d like to add?

Darren Evans  52:59
No, you know, just that you’ve been great. can’t thank you enough for your time. It’s been a pleasure.

Victoria Volk  53:04
Yeah, I think the conversation will definitely continue.

Darren Evans  53:07
Yeah, I really genuinely hope it does. But you have for me to you I wish you well with your endeavors as well. You know, notwithstanding the doula.

Victoria Volk  53:17
Thank you so much. I very much look forward to it. I’m not sure how it’s gonna play out in my area but yeah, thank you so much.

Darren Evans  53:28
you’ll be great, it’s a pleasure. And let’s let’s keep in touch.

Victoria Volk  53:32
Definitely. And remember, when you unleash your heart, you unleash your life. Much love.

 

Pin It on Pinterest

Share This
Skip to content