Divorce, Grieving Voices Guest, Pespective, Podcast |
SHOW NOTES SUMMARY:
In a world where life’s transitions often have heavy financial implications, Leah Hadley is a beacon of guidance and support. On this episode of Grieving Voices, Leah—founder of Intentional Wealth Partners and Intentional Divorce Solutions—shared her journey from investment analyst to empowering individuals through some of their most challenging moments, including divorce, of which she brings her personal experiences into her work with others.
Leah navigated personal upheavals such as adoption and divorce while building her career in finance for over fifteen years. Her transition to entrepreneurship was not just about professional growth but also about creating flexibility to address the nuanced needs of her own family and those facing significant life changes like divorce.
Key Points Discussed:
- Leah’s transition from an investment analyst to starting her own business to accommodate her role as an adoptive mother and her experience through divorce.
- The challenges faced during divorce include co-parenting dynamics, emotional turmoil, and financial restructuring.
- The importance of understanding one’s finances when heading into a divorce.
- The importance of support systems.
- Working as both an advocate for one spouse or neutrally for couples to optimize marital estate division fairly.
One core message from our conversation was the critical need for financial clarity amidst the emotional storm of separation. Leah underscored how even experts can feel overwhelmed when emotions cloud judgment—a powerful reminder that during times of distress, having expert advice isn’t just helpful; it’s essential.
For anyone facing the daunting path of divorce, Leah advises taking measured steps toward thoroughly understanding their finances before making any decisions. This approach minimizes costly mistakes and ensures today’s choices positively shape the future.
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Navigating Life’s Transitions with Financial Empowerment: Insights from Leah Hadley
Life is a journey marked by transitions, and while some are joyous, others can be incredibly challenging. One of the most tumultuous changes many face is divorce—a process that not only signifies the end of a relationship but also brings about profound financial implications. In this blog post, we dive into the insights shared by Leah Hadley on Grieving Voices, where she offers invaluable advice drawn from her personal experiences and professional expertise as a financial empowerment expert.
From Analyst to Advocate
Leah’s career trajectory took her from being an investment analyst to becoming a trusted financial adviser. Her decision to launch Intentional Wealth Partners and Intentional Divorce Solutions stemmed from her desire for flexibility and dedication to addressing the specific needs of individuals undergoing significant life shifts such as divorce or adoption.
Her own path wasn’t just shaped by professional growth; it was deeply personal too. Having navigated through adoption processes and her own divorce, Leah understands firsthand how emotional distress can cloud one’s judgment—especially regarding finances.
The Crucial Role of Financial Clarity in Divorce
Divorce isn’t just about legally parting ways with your spouse; it involves dissecting intertwined lives—and finances play a huge role in that separation. As Leah points out, achieving financial clarity is paramount during this time:
1. **Understanding Your Finances**: It begins with grasping the full picture—your income streams, monthly expenses, assets you own jointly or individually, debts owed together or separately.
2. **Consulting Experts**: Engaging with financial neutrals who provide unbiased guidance can be critical alongside at least consulting lawyers for legal aspects.
3. **Taking Measured Steps**: For those embarking on this daunting path, taking it one step at a time helps manage overwhelming emotions tied to these decisions.
Communication & Respect: Pillars During Transition
When children are involved in a divorce scenario—or any family transition—the stakes rise significantly concerning communication dynamics:
– Effective Communication: This means managing challenges without letting past baggage interfere with present conversations (e.g., discussions around children’s education).
– Mutual Respect: Treating each other respectfully ensures that co-parenting decisions remain consistent and child-focused despite differences between parents.
Facing Fear Through Preparation
Fear is an inherent part of any major life change—be it retiring or coping with loss—but preparation diminishes its grip over us:
– By utilizing tools like comprehensive financial planning ahead of transitions like buying houses or retirement planning.
– Recognizing fear as natural yet addressable through informed support systems.
Avoid DIY Pitfalls & Embrace Expertise
Common missteps during divorces include attempting to DIY complex legal procedures without adequate knowledge—a risky endeavor leading potentially towards bankruptcy among other issues:
1. Seeking early consultation minimizes risks associated with uninformed decision-making.
2. Tapping into community resources provides practical assistance along with familial understanding during trying times.
Furthermore, resources such as “divorce toolkits” aid in organizing your finances meticulously which could translate into reduced legal costs down the line—an aspect where services offered by professionals like Leah come into play offering tailored solutions based on case complexity.
Finally—and perhaps most importantly—Leah encourages viewing divorce not merely as an end but also as an opportunity for self-realignment and growth despite challenges faced throughout this period.
In conclusion, whether you’re facing upheaval due to personal relationships ending or other significant life events triggering fear and uncertainty—it’s essential not only to seek clarity within yourself but also reach out for expert guidance when needed. Remember: You don’t have to navigate these waters alone; there are compassionate professionals ready to steer you toward calmer seas equipped with intentionality every step of the way.
Episode Transcription:
Victoria Volk: Thank you for tuning in to this episode of grieving voices. Today, I am happy to welcome Leah Hadley, She is a nationally recognized financial empowerment expert is committed to providing personalized compassionate financial guidance through life transitions. She will tell you she’s had many challenging financial times in her adult life, becoming a parent of three overnight, getting divorced, and building a business from the ground up to name a few. These have been times when her ability to hunt down appropriate resources and careful financial planning was critical to her peace of mind. A former investment analyst sought after speaker an award winning financial planner Lea is the founder of intentional wealth partners and intentional divorce solutions. Leah uses her knowledge of more than fifteen years of experience to help our clients make intentional, financial decisions. Thank you so much for being here, my being my guest, and for sharing a topic, I think, specifically for divorce, but because of your background experience of and your personal experience of divorce and just briefly before we started to record of adoption, I think that we can go into two of these big life transitions pretty deeply on this podcast.
Leah Hadley: Thank you so much for having me. I appreciate the opportunity.
Victoria Volk: So let’s start with how you got from investment analyst to building your own business.
Leah Hadley: Yeah. It was not planned, Avianis. It was an equity research analyst. And so for equity research, you travel quite a bit to the companies that you cover and to the portfolio managers that are your clients and that kind of a thing. And my ex husband and I had decided that we were going to adopt and we were adapting through the foster care system. And at that time, it was very difficult to get through all of the requirements with the travel that I had for my job. And so I decided that, you know what, just to be the mom that I wanted to be, that job was not gonna be very conducive to what I wanted for my life. And so I decided that I would take my skills and start helping individuals and families, and I became a financial advisor with a large broker dealer at the time. And we were blessed with three amazing children while I was there. And then I found that there was only one way to do business there. They had kind of a structure in place that didn’t allow a lot of flexibility. And honestly, people have different needs especially people who are going through life transitions. So I decided to leave there and go to another firm that I thought was gonna allow me to do more work helping people through these transitions and also found a lot of red tape at that particular firm. Ultimately, I found that if I really wanted deserve people in a way that I felt like people needed support. And I wanted the lifestyle that I wanted for my kids, so I wanted a lot of flexibility to be able to be there to take them to their therapy user to, you know, participate in the PTA and all of these things that I needed to do it on my own. I needed to create the, you know, way of serving people, create the hours, create the time, that’s gonna work for me and my life. And so, ultimately, that’s how I ended up struggling my own business.
Victoria Volk: I have two questions, and I’m gonna ask them so I don’t forget.
Leah Hadley: Okay.
Victoria Volk: Had you had you always wanted to be an adopted mom, first of all? And then the second question is, can you make a distinction between and maybe that if things are different today, I imagine, in firms and that process. But can you make a distinction for people for, like, the financial planners and the firms, Edward Jones, or whoever they may go to, versus these transitions that require maybe a little bit a different approach. Can you make that distinction for people? So two questions for you.
Leah Hadley: Absolutely. So I had not thought that I would become an adaptive mom. That wasn’t something that I had, you know, grown up thinking about or anything like that. And my ex husband and I came to that decision after a lot of conversation and We had a wonderful couple who introduced us to many adoption resources. We went to some different workshops and things to learn more about what the options were.
So it was a long road to deciding that that was gonna be the right option for us. And as far as the different kinds of firms in the way that they serve people. They each have like, especially a larger firm, has a certain way of doing things because there are so many rules in the industry. There just are. There are today, there were then, there are a lot of rules in the industry. And so they create ways of doing business to make sure that everybody is in compliance with all of those rules. But what happens is then you have somebody that doesn’t quite fitthe mold, what they need, doesn’t necessarily fit the way that they do business, And suddenly, that firm is not gonna be the best one to serve that person. Okay? And so for example, if you think about a divorce, every divorce is different. There are no two divorces that are the same. Financial planning for divorce is like financial planning on steroids. You know, you’re looking at every single thing and you’re knowing that everything’s gonna change. Right? And so there are so many different scenarios that it can be really hard for a very large firm to make sure that if they have a lot of advisors working in the space, that they are always in compliance. If they’re not going through that advisers, you know, all their communications and all their reports and things like that. And so I think that’s where it’s really tricky. I don’t think, you know, they’re set out to not help people. But I think there are are very real reasons why it can be difficult for them to have the flexibility to support people in different transitions in their lives. Does that make sense?
Victoria Volk: Yes. And so when you found yourself, going through your divorce, where were you at in your career at that point? And with the kids,
Leah Hadley: Yeah. I was working as a financial adviser, and I was on my husband’s health insurance at the time. And so I was not going to have health insurance through my employer when we divorced, which was a big issue. And I really wasn’t making enough to work myself and the kids as a single mom either. And so that was a big issue for me as well. So there was a lot going on there as far as, you know, when I was going through this transition and figuring out how can I continue, what does my job need to look like how can I be available for these kids in a way that I need to be available for them? So that’s kind of where I was and what was going on.
Victoria Volk: What were some of the things that you did then to navigate that divorce in what worked for you, what didn’t work for you? If you could go back in time, what you can’t, what would you have what would you have done differently, things like that?
Leah Hadley: Yeah. You know, one of the things that we did really, really well Victoria, we spent a lot of time talking about the conversation we were gonna have with our children and letting them know that this is what we had decided to do. And we had really prepared well for that conversation. We sat down together and had that conversation with all three children. My youngest was still a toddler, so I think it was very difficult for him to really understand what was going on. But the other two were old enough to understand at the time. And we had a great conversation with them and answered questions and it went really well. What we didn’t plan for is everything that comes after that. And so one, my ex husband moved out and the kids would go between our homes, especially my youngest. He was still a toddler. He would scream and, you know, fuss because he had to go between our homes. And, you know, toddlers don’t like change. And, you know, it didn’t matter which way the kids were going. It was always very volatile, stressful situations when we were going through these transitions. And he lived close to me. So it’s not like we live as far apart. We really tried to make this as easy on the kids as we could, but those transistors were really, really difficult. And, you know, you still have the hurt and the anger and all of that that goes along with the divorce itself. And so we’re struggling as adults with our own feelings but then also didn’t necessarily have the communication in place to deal with what does co parenting look like going beyond this initial conversation. So that first year, that first year was very, very hard. I was, you know, changing jobs, starting my own business, we’re dealing with, kind of with a schedule that was working for our family. There were just so many changes that we were experiencing at that time. And I think it was just really hard on everybody. What could I have done differently? Absolutely sat down and had a conversation with my ex husband very early on about how we wanted to handle communication, how we wanted to handle transitions. Now we actually have dinner as a family about one a month. I talked to him every single week, you know, we really prioritize making sure that we’re staying on the same page when it comes to raising our children So that way, you know, we’re both there. We’re we’re still a united front even though we’re both remarried to other people, you know. And just really prioritizing what co parenting looks like for us. But it took us a while to get there.
We had to get past some of that, our own hurt and our own anger, to really be able to get to a place of being able to have these comfortable communications and prioritizing the children’s needs.
Victoria Volk: What resources and or people you bring in to your divorce experience that helped you at that time?
Leah Hadley: I have to tell you, I am so fortunate because so many people’s families really struggle when people get divorced and have a hard time kind of finding their space within this new family structure. But my mom has always been my rock. She had gone through two divorces of her own many years ago. And so I think she really understood. I mean, she raised my brother and I as a single parent. I think she really understood what I was going through. And, you know, she was there for both me and my ex husband. It’s not like she was just there for me. So when we needed childcare, we needed you know, one of the kids to get a ride somewhere or something, she was always willing to step in as much as she could. And that was so beneficial. She never said anything negative. About my ex husband, especially nothing in front of her children. And she was really a huge, huge, huge support. Another big support was my church community, and I also know that everybody’s not that fortunate in that respect either. But I wasn’t a church community that was very supportive in helping me figure out you know, what is this role for me? How do I balance these things? How do I take the kids to certain activities and whatnot? And still be able to participate as an adult. So I was very lucky in a lot of ways. I didn’t feel a tremendous amount of judgment, which I know so many people do. And I think my heart just breaks for them when I hear some of their stories. But I I was very fortunate in that I had a community that really surrounded me and lifted me up and helped me figure out what I needed. And even when I didn’t know what I needed, Victoria, somebody would say, hey, let me take your kids for for an afternoon and and give you a break or, you know, something like that. And it was just so valuable
Victoria Volk: in terms of what you do today, intentional divorce solutions. And I imagine that much of your experience or much of the work that you do is based on your personal experience, and you bring that to the work with that you do with clients. So aside from family support, community support, how about in terms of maybe you see a lot of people making different mistakes, you know, as they go through that divorce process. Not I’m talking the financial stuff now. Like, the financial advice, the what do you do next?
Like, how do you create the separation of assets and all of that? What did you bring into your divorce that helped you at that time? And is that what’s really, I guess, informed the work that you do today.
Leah Hadley: It is a big part of why I do what I do because one of the things I saw, you know, I had been a financial professional for years before I went through my own divorce. And it was still, financially, these changes were incredibly overwhelming today. And I a a a budgeter. I go through and create an annual budget every year and then update it throughout the year. And that skill of being able to do that and knowing how to adjust that budget in order to deal with these huge changes I was experiencing. Was so, so important to my peace of mind. Like, I just don’t know how I could have gotten through it without being able to do that. But there were times when I was just so emotionally overwhelmed, I couldn’t I couldn’t sit there and look at the budget and figure it out because I couldn’t get myself to be clear headed enough to really take those skills and use them. Right? And so for somebody who had that much experience and was still struggling, And I’ll tell you, even today, I work with a lot of accounts who are going through a divorce. I work with other financial planners who are going through a divorce. It doesn’t matter what your background is, when you’re going through this huge change impacting every area of your life, can just cloud your, you know, anything that you’re trying to think about objectively. So I did not use a CDFA when I wasgoing through my divorce. Quite frankly, we didn’t have that much of a complex financial situation. But I did definitely lean on the tools that I had already created in my life in terms of budgeting and looking at our assets and looking at our debts and figure out how’s all of this going to work out. But again, my mom was incredibly supportive. My mom does have a financial background. And so when I couldn’t see through the trees, you know. She could really help me kinda clear my way and and say you’re out, okay, this is what we need to prioritize right now. You know. So for example, when we first got divorced, I needed to make sure I got health insurance right away. I was responsible for the mortgage on the home because I stayed in the marital home. So there were all of a sudden big expenses that really increased on me very quickly, and I knew that my income at that time was not going to support that. And so I had to make a change.
Victoria Volk: And what did that look like?
Leah Hadley: So that’s how I ultimately ended up starting my business. First, I went back to equity research because I thought, okay, if I just need to make more money, this is a place where I could make more money. Right? And I could get good benefits. But it came back to right where I was before we ever had the children in that that is just not a career that’s very conducive to prioritize in motherhood. And so I started my own business, and I was really serious about looking at how am I going to support us, and it took some time but I was able to build, you know, two thriving businesses at this point. And and it it ended up working out, but I’ll tell you what. It was not an easy road those first couple of years.
Victoria Volk: I’ve built two businesses too over the over the years and it’s a grind. It’s definitely a grind at first, you know, up all day with the kids and then up all night because they’re sleeping and then you can actually sit and focus and do what you need to do. And so, you know, I love entrepreneurs in that way just because I understand that, you know, sometimes you live your life a certain way that most people wouldn’t so that you can live the rest of your life how you want. Right? Right. What are the baby steps people can take as they’re listening to you and find themselves. Maybe maybe they got served papers or they’re thinking about serving papers to their spouse and, you know, just embarking on this. Journey. What are some baby steps people can take?
Leah Hadley: Yeah. It’s really important that people get very clear on their financial situation. How are you gonna make any decisions if you’re not clear on your current financial situation? And I recognize that this can be very, very difficult for a spouse that may not be involved in the family finances. I work with lots of people who weren’t involved in the family finances during the marriage. Suddenly you’re going through this huge life change and you’re just learning about your own financial situation. So if that is you, you’re absolutely not alone. But that makes it even more important to really prioritize figuring out what is income, where is it coming from, when am I receiving it, What are expenses? What are my fixed expenses that are the same every single month? What are my variable expenses that change from month to month? And if you find that your income is barely covering your six expenses, money is going to feel tight. It’s going to. Especially if you have attorney fees on top of that or other professional services that you may be utilizing through the divorce process. So starting with a very clear sense of cash flow, income, fixed expenses, variable expenses is really important. Under standing what your assets are, what you own, and your liabilities are, what you owe. And so getting clear on what is the value of my home you may need to get an appraisal in order to get a good number on that. Right? Where are the retirement accounts? You know, whose retirement account is in, whose name. If you’re not quite sure you are not alone, so many times people will say, well, we have a joint retirement account. Well, there are no joint retirement accounts. So retirement account is an individual account. And so that’s, to me, a red flag that, like, okay. We’re not clear on the financial situation here. And so really knowing if you are a joint user on a credit card, if you’re an authorized user on a credit card, if it’s your own credit card, that can be very confusing for people. So really getting very clear on your financial situation, is a very important start because until you know what your whole picture looks like, how can you even start to think about dividing things? How can you even start to think about can I afford to stay in the house or what can I afford in terms of whether it’s a rental or another home if you don’t know what your financial situation looks like? So that may not feel like baby steps for a lot of people. I know that that can feel like a very, very big task start with one thing. Getting clear on where income is coming from, when income is coming in, how much.
Right? And then move on to the next thing. Look at, okay, what are my expenses that come every single month? And if you’re not sure, think about how they get paid. Can you go through a bank statement? Can you go through a credit card statement? Review, you know, the last several months and just make a list? It doesn’t have to be overly complicated. But the idea is just to give you some clarity around those numbers. Okay?
But just take it one step at a time. Now a lot of people will tell me, well, I don’t know what our assets are. I don’t know where the retirement accounts are. I don’t know where the investment accounts are. Okay. But if you know they exist, write them down. Just write down that you know there is an investment account. Maybe you know it’s held at Fidelity or something like that. So that way, Ultimately, you can gather that information. You may not have all the information at your fingertips. That is normal, unfortunately. But through the divorce process, you’ll be able to gather the additional information needed to really clarify that financial picture.
Victoria Volk: Do you generally work with one spouse? Or are you finding that you’re working with the couple? And then you’re an advocate for the couple? Going through that transition.
Leah Hadley: I do both. So sometimes I work as an advocate for one spouse and sometimes I work as a neutral for the couple. I think we do our most productive work when we can work as a neutral because then we’re looking at everybody’s financial situation. Trying to optimize the marital state for everybody involved. Everybody’s getting the same financial information at the same time. And that really helps people to stay on the same page. Everybody is looking at the same projections. So if if you’re looking at like a spousal support scenario and finding, okay, you know, I’m I’m thinking I need this much spouse to support, but my my spouse can really only afford that much spouse to support. How do we get to the numbers that are gonna work for everybody? So I really think it’s important to work as a financial neutral as much as possible. I realize that sometimes it’s just not possible. And we do actually more financial advocacy work for one spouse than we do neutral work, but that neutral work is so valuable.
Victoria Volk: I could see where that would be the best case scenario for, I think, both people going through that process just because for like you said, everyone’s on the same page, there isn’t this my divorce lawyer versus your divorce lawyer? And do people still have a lawyer on either side as they work with you generally?
Leah Hadley: So that varies. Sometimes we’re hired by the client directly. Sometimes we’re actually hired by the attorney. One people work in the financial neutral scenario. I like for them each to have a lawyer that they at least consult with. I think it’s important that you feel like you have the knowledge to make decisions for yourself through the process. There are options. It’s good to have the legal background. And I’m not an attorney. I don’t provide legal advice at all. I look at everything through that financial lens. And so for people to really consult and understand what the legal context is in your local area is really important.
Victoria Volk: Who do you think needs to seek support or counsel from someone with your expertise? Like, what are the most pressing scenarios? Or what do you say that.
Leah Hadley: So I find it fascinating who seeks out our services. It tends to be either the spouse who has limited financial knowledge and absolutely knows that they have no idea how they’re gonna work through this financial piece, and they know they need the support. But I’ve mentioned earlier that we work with fair amount of accountants, financial planners, attorneys. And so those folks know what they don’t know. And for whatever reason, we don’t get a lot in between. So we tend to get those who have limited financial knowledge and absolutely need that support. And those who know exactly what they don’t know, and that’s why they want to fill in that gap and they know they need to fill in that gap. But I think, you know, it’s really important that you do understand the financial decisions that you’re making through the divorce process because these decisions don’t just impact you in that moment in time. These are financial decisions that are going to impact your lifetime. They it’s a weird way to think about it, but for most people, the work is the largest financial transaction they will ever experience. And so not having good financial guidance to make sure you fully understand what are the tax implications of that decision. How are you going to support your cash flow, whatever the, you know, issues may be. You know, you’re really selling yourself short. If you’re not allowing yourself to have that person who can really help you to navigate these things. There are some very costly mistakes that people make. Because they just don’t know any better. And so having that applicant on your side can be really, really powerful. But I would say the people who really have limited financial knowledge it’s critical that they have somebody on their team who’s helping them understand and helping them to prepare for their next chapter.
Victoria Volk: Excellent advice. It’s like we, you know, we have a realtor when we buy a home and we go through all this paperwork and all this processes to do so, and that’s a huge financial investment and commitment as well. But like you said, this a divorce can that’s a lifetime impact. You know, I know some people that they end up filing for bankruptcy, did they even need to file bankruptcy?
Leah Hadley: Right.
Victoria Volk: You know, but you feel like you’re so overwhelmed with the pro I’m just gonna do this and be done with it and move on. And I think that’s a lot of what how people maybe approach it and probably one of the approaches that isn’t maybe in their best interest for the long term.
Leah Hadley: Yeah. And that is very true. A lot of people just wanna get it done. They just don’t wanna take the time to think it through. They just wanna be done with it. It feels difficult, that messy middle where you, you know, know you’re getting divorced, but you’re not divorced yet. And there’s a lot of ambiguity around finances during that period of time. We just wanna get past it. But, yeah, some of those mistakes can be so costly that you’re right. They can absolutely lead to bankruptcy or other issues.
Victoria Volk: You talked a lot about communication with your ex husband in that process. And I found on your website that you have a blog post about communication with an ex spouse and navigating all of those conversations that you especially if you have children. Right? You’re going to have this ongoing relationship with this person. And it sounds like you and your ex have done a beautiful job of making it not this, you know, pitting one against the other experience for the kids and just making it a family experience that can be as positive as it can be. So what are some recommendations that you have for the communication piece?
Leah Hadley: Well, I think one of the biggest recommendations I have is to be very real with yourself about where you are at personally at this moment in time. Because wherever you are, if you’re hurting, if you’re angry, and you’re not really paying attention to it, it’s going to come out in your communication. And so really acknowledging that, like, this is a difficult thing. This is really challenging. And it’s okay to have the feelings that you’re having. And then we can we can look at this communication as something that is important, something that I need to prioritize. And that I need to set these feelings aside for the moment in order to be able to have clear concise communication. And that is focused on, you know, whatever the outcome needs to be. Right? So if it’s related to the children and something going along going on at school, we’re not bringing all this baggage that has everything, you know, all these years of arguments and whatever led to the divorce ultimately. Into this conversation about what’s going on at school that we’re really focused on. Okay. This is what we’re communicating about in this moment. And I’m gonna acknowledge that, yes, I have all these other feelings, but I’m gonna set them aside for right now and really focus on what needs to be dealt with. But if you don’t acknowledge that, that’s where a lot of times we get those, you know, quick responses, especially angry responses, that have nothing to do with what you’re actually communicating about in that particular moment. And that’s where we were that first year, you know, that first year where we had not kind of cracked this communication code yet. You know, we were very irritable with one another. We were always assuming the worst in one another. Whereas now, we treat each other with a tremendous amount of respect, which, you know, that’s the kind of relationship I want my kids to see. Between their parents. I think that’s really critical. And we support one another, especially with the kids and making sure that they know that, hey, at the top of the dad’s house, you know, I’m gonna there’s still gonna be consequences in mom’s house because it’s not okay. Right? So really truly staying on the same page and and backing each other up in that life.
Victoria Volk: I think that’s huge even just when you’re married. Hate. I mean, I saw him for it when you’re married to pack each other up and be on the same page and know that, you know, the kids can’t pick one parent against the other. And well, mom said yes. And, you know, and then especially, it’s especially more important when they’re in separate. You know, homes of, you know, when the parents are separated or divorced. How much of it do you when you were talking about the anger and stuff. I one thing that came up for me or what I think I especially people that don’t have that background knowledge, I imagine that it would be a lot of fear that people are coming into your office with or just fear in general as you go through a divorce, like, how are you gonna support yourself? Like, everything that you’ve said, I’ve heard fear in everything that you’ve said. And so I think just bringing someone in like you who has that background expertise can help to diffuse that fear. Like, okay, I don’t know this, but she does. She’s the expert. And, you know, feel empowered by that. Having you as that you know, supports you are a support system for somebody going through this. And so I think it’s important that people recognize that it’s fear really that is probably driving the anger and the emotion and, you know, now you have this huge life transition and what do you do about it? And so let’s talk about some other life transitions that you assist people through that may be filled with fear.
Leah Hadley: You know, I assist people with really exciting things, like buying their first house or retiring or having a baby. They all do. These changes. Changes in our life, you are absolutely right. Do bring bring about fear. And so regardless of whether it’s something that you really look at as like a positive, I’m excited. This is what I’ve been working toward. You know, there are a lot of people who go through a very difficult transition when they retire. It can be really hard on somebody, especially if they had much of their identity tied into their work. And now it’s like, well, who who am I now that I don’t have this this part of me. Right? So certainly, loss of a loved one. You know, that is a huge area where people are so much like, what does life look like? And it’s in an instant in some cases. Right? In some cases, there can be more planning, but not in all cases. And so you know, what does this change mean for me? I had a woman one time come into my office and she had lost her husband. He had actually been sick for a while, so I wish he had come in sooner because we could have done some planning, but she hadn’t have her name on anything. She didn’t have her name on the credit card. She was just an authorized user. She didn’t have her name on bank accounts. And, you know, everything wasn’t set up to easily transfer over to her. So she goes, Leah, I feel like a two million dollars bag lady. Like, I don’t know what to do, and it was just unfortunate because there’s so much could have been done that could have made that transition easier. And then when you do have that that kind of a transition, there’s so much paperwork involved. And for some people, on a good day paperwork, it’s overwhelming. Right? So when you’re really going through all these these emotions, paperwork can absolutely just feel like the thing that’s gonna take you over. And so walking people through what are the steps that need to happen now? That’s a big part of what we do in any transition. Getting really clear on a, b, c, d, e, and knowing that these are the things that need to happen, and this needs to happen before that happens, and that sort of thing. But when people have that concrete guide, that can just be so beneficial because it takes some of this year away. And it’s like, alright. Let me just follow follow with the directions here and kinda work through it. But the other big thing when it comes to fear and finances is a lot of people just don’t necessarily understand the power of financial planning. You know, when you have a financial plan, it really truly is like your financial guide book. And it makes it very clear, will I have enough money to retire or a wall tie? And if I won’t, what changes do I need to make in order to make sure that I do. Right? When people have the financial plan and then they’re going through our divorce, you have that plan as that basis. So now you know, this is where we’re at. We need to make some adjustments here because obviously there’s some big changes but it’s so much easier for them to see what those changes mean for them when they had the plan to begin with. Right? They didn’t have the plan to begin with. Having that plan especially post a worse to know, hey, what can I really afford to spend? What can I really afford to invest for my future? And those kinds of questions, to make sure that I have that strong financial foundation that I’m building wealth and I’m working toward goals is really so critical for so many people’s peace of mind.
Victoria Volk: And what I heard you saying, there’s two things. It’s not enough to just have a retirement account and just letting it build and letting it do its thing.
Leah Hadley: Right? Right.
Victoria Volk: K. That’s that’s me. I’ll be I’ll be the first to admit. I got retirement accounts and they’re just doing their thing. So that’s mistake number one.
Right? And mistake number two that I heard that I figured out for myself as I heard you was that it’s not enough to have just an authorized user on a credit card. Yeah. I did not know that.
Leah Hadley: Mhmm. Yeah. So if you are an authorized user on somebody’s credit card and that card is closed. First of all, they can remove you as an authorized user at any time. They have complete and full control over doing that. But let’s say that person passes away or something and the account gets closed, you don’t have that credit history on your credit report because that wasn’t your your account. To begin with. And so you really need to have a credit card in your own name to be building your credit history.
Victoria Volk: Okay. So I’m so in the event of okay. Well, then it to it’s my it’s to my benefit. Right? Like, if I so for my credit card business credit cards and things like that, husband is an authorized user, but he’s not on the accounts.
So in the event of my passing, he’s not responsible for the debt that’s on those cards. Correct?
Leah Hadley: Not necessarily. Yeah. That’s that’s not necessarily the case. You know, it it can reconsider the marital debt. Oh. And, yeah, the the state can have to pay off those cards. So that’s kind of a gray area.
Victoria Volk: So even if there’s cash back, my husband wouldn’t be able to get that cash back.
Leah Hadley: That’s true.
Victoria Volk: See, it’s like, we can still stick them with the debt, but we weren’t gonna give them a give them a cash back. Okay. Well, good to know. What are some of the consequences you’ve seen in working with those who’ve tried other means or to DIY their way through divorce or other transitions. You know, they come to you maybe desperate. Right? Like, I’ve tried this and this and this and that didn’t work? Like, what are some scenarios that you’ve seen walk through your door?
Leah Hadley: You know, the biggest thing I see people is not wanting to deal with it. They literally just want to put their head in the sand and not have to deal with any of it. As far as the DIY stuff goes, I see some very big mistakes. Sometimes people kind of DIY through the divorce, and then they may come to me afterwards for support for financial planning or portfolio management, and I look at the agreement that they made and there may be tremendous amount of financial risk in that agreement that they hadn’t even thought about. So, for example, you know, spousal support is a big one where if it’s not protecting in some way and the payer of spouse’s support passes away, all of a sudden there goes your income. Right? So we look at how do you protect these things, whether it’s for life insurance policy or or something else. Sometimes people will withdraw funds from retirement accounts, not recognizing that there are other ways to deal with those transfers without having a huge tax burden or penalty associated with it. So I see all kinds of things that people are doing. When they’re when they’re not necessarily informed in doing things on their own, things that they just don’t know any better. Right? But the sooner that you can consult with somebody, the better, and the sooner you can pay attention to this stuff, the better. Like, just don’t keep your head in sand because a lot of times when that happens, people are just accruing debt as it relates to paying their lawyers and that kind of a thing. And it’s like, well, I’m just gonna kick that can down the road and deal with it later, but you can create a real financial burden for yourself if you’re not paid attention.
Victoria Volk: What I see what the dots I’m connecting here is that what you do in one area of life is how you do everything. And so if you are a person who wants to avoid conflict at all cost and confront confronting the things that you don’t want to deal with in life and throughout, like, So for example, if there’s trouble in your marriage and you just wanna put your head in the sand, you don’t wanna talk about it. Right? There’s in marriages, there’s many things you don’t wanna talk about money being one of the big ones. Right? So if you find yourself in your marriage, not talking about money. And I I have people in my life or they don’t have those conversations. There’s one person like you said in charge of everything and they don’t sit down and talk about you know, purchases even. Like, you know, you’re gonna see that reflected in a divorce if that’s where that relationship goes down the road. Like, So if you’re putting your head in the sand now and you’re married and you think everything’s hunky dory but you’re putting your head in the sand eventually that you know, that’s how you’ll respond when you get faced with challenges too, I think.
Leah Hadley: Well, that’s one of the reasons why I see a lot of divorces becoming real contentious is because the one person didn’t know necessarily about the financial situation. Now they’re learning about it through the divorce process, and they don’t trust anything. Because they’re just to that point where trust has been completely broken down. And that other spouse may very well be forthcoming with that information and maybe sharing exactly what’s going on, they may not be. But how do you know? Right? I mean, we certainly can do analysis to figure out what might be missing, what’s not being disclosed, things like that. But just kind of between the two, you know, it can be really difficult to know whether or not that person that can be trusted. So if you come into the divorce process, both being very clear on the current financial situation, you can avoid that whole issue.
Victoria Volk: That is the big takeaway, I think, in this episode today is communication. It comes down to communication. Being open and honest and communicating makes your life a whole lot easier. Alright? Yeah. We’re kinda nearing the end of our time together. And I just wanna touch back, though, on what you experienced in your divorce and personally. And what were some of the helpful and unhelpful things that you experience throughout that time. And maybe things that people said to you.
Leah Hadley: You know, one of the things that I think about when I think about divorce it’s one of these, it’s a huge life change. Right? But through all of the other life changes, there are some kinds of ritual celebration, something that happens. Right? Like, you know, you’re having a baby, you have a baby chatter, you’re getting married, there’s, you know, the whole ceremony reception, what have you. You’re going through a divorce, a lot of times it feels like you have to, like, close the curtains and hide and not necessarily say anything about what’s going on. And for some people had a divorce goes on for years. I was fortunate that, you know, ours was probably six months or something in that range, so it wasn’t, you know, real long. But It’s a period of time where it’s hard to talk about what’s going on. You know, I think a lot of people struggle with feelings of failure you’re grieving all of the loss of all of what you’ve dreamed about together. Right? You know, you have this image of what you thought your life was going to be. Not to mention this person who, you know, thought was going to be your life partner. So there’s a lot going on during that period of time For me, the most important thing was somebody just being there, just listening. I didn’t want anybody saying anything bad about my ex husband. That’s not I wasn’t in that space of wanting to hear that. I just wanted to know that I wasn’t alone that even though I felt like I had to shut the the curtains and kinda hide out, that that there was somebody else in there with me, so to speak. Right? That was really, really important to me. There are things that were awkward, like when I first got divorced, I had kept my ex husband’s name. When I remarried, I changed my name. But his his last name is one that people asked about a lot. And so every time I had this conversation with somebody, I had to beep, like, awkward and, oh, that’s my ex husband’s last name. And I didn’t necessarily want somebody I had just met and I didn’t wanna be talking about my ex husband. Right? And so divorce was really very normal. It is very it happens a lot. And so I think normalizing it is really, really important. I’ve said before, I was so fortunate in that I was supported by my community. I didn’t feel a lot of rejection around the divorce itself. I was just struggling with the changes in my life, but I know for a lot of people there is this whole other element that makes it even more complicated and more difficult. Right? And so just you know, having people who are there can take some of the pressure off you even, you know, for me, my kids were young, taking them for a little bit of time. So I would have a break, you know, my mom taking them overnight sometimes. So I would have space, you know, just being able to have time to spend with friends and not have to worry about what’s going on with the kids. I could not afford babysitters when I was first going through my divorce and, you know, had all those expenses right away, but people were also so generous in, like, giving me clothes that their kids set out brown or you know, giving us toys or, you know, things like that that are just let me just make your life a little bit easier. I know you’re going through a difficult time Let me just do something. Right? All of that stuff was so so meaningful to me and just helped that transition so much.
Victoria Volk: Do you see more women coming to you or particularly maybe men that I think there’s this I think there’s this idea that men should know what to do financially and things like that, but that’s always that’s not always the case where they’re the ones that who were in charge of the finances or were involved with the finances. So is it kind of a mixed bag, or do you see one more versus the other?
Leah Hadley: I definitely see more women. But I also have men who reach out as well. You know, a lot of times in relationships nowadays, one of the spouse’s teachers responsibility for the finances, but it’s not always the man. Sometimes it is the woman who takes responsibility for the finances. But it’s also not always the person who wasn’t involved in the finances that reaches out. You know, I mentioned before a lot of times it really is that person who knows that their knowledge is limited. So they have enough knowledge to know that they need support. But it’s it’s both genders. I see more men reaching out for financial neutral service than I do, women, but that’s just kind of how our practice is. I don’t know if that’s overall.
Victoria Volk: I was looking at your website and I saw that you have some resource is on there, and you have a resource resource toolkit. Can you speak a little bit about what that includes and what someone can find coming to your website and maybe that’s their baby step.
Leah Hadley: Yeah. There’s a lot in the toolkit. It’s a really valuable bundle of resources There’s everything from ebooks around parenting and negotiation skills to a financial clarity kit, which is a series of videos that walks you through the steps that I was talking about before where you really get clear on your income, get clear on your expenses, your assets, and your liability. It’s So there are a variety of resources that are really all about helping you to get super organized and prepared for the divorce process. The more organized you are, the more you will save on legal expenses. One of the reasons that legal bills go up is just because of that lack of organization and people don’t even think about it. But going back and forth with attorneys about documents and things like that, it’s just unnecessary in a lot of cases. You get everything organized, provide it to them all at once, make sure they have everything they need. That can actually save you quite a bit
Victoria Volk: of money. Wow. I actually know of some people I’m going to share that resource with that are going through a divorce and You also have the podcast intentional divorce insights as well, and that’s weekly. Correct.
Leah Hadley: Yeah. Yeah. We just launched that this year. We’ve had some wonderful wonderful guests on the podcast, and I definitely encourage anybody who really wants to be empowered through the divorce process, not to feel like I’m just a victim of the process or I’m giving my power away to my attorney. But people who really want to be educated and empowered through the process to check out that podcast and great resources on there.
Victoria Volk: Howard Bauchner: And you say the word empowered, and I mentioned that earlier, that I think just having you in in someone’s corner is empowering. Right? Yeah. Because you don’t know what you don’t know. Right.
So even if you don’t know, you have someone that does.
Leah Hadley: That’s right. That’s right.
Victoria Volk: That’s empowering. Is there anything else that you would like to share that you didn’t feel you got to mention,
Leah Hadley: just that you get through it. You know, it’s a difficult time. There’s a lot of emotion. There’s a lot of financial change. But the beauty of the work that I do is I often am working with people on ongoing financial planning and investment management post divorce. And I get to see you know, how their life changes. In a lot of cases, you know, they’re meeting their next person or, you know, starting a job or a business that they love or whatever that next chapter looks like for them, I just get to see so many wonderful things taking place. And if you allow yourself to really look at it, as like being your time to really take ownership over your life and, you know, really be in alignment with what’s important to you and your values. It can really be a beautiful next chapter. It’s just getting through that messy middle.
Victoria Volk: About how long do you generally work with a person, an individual, or a couple through the process?
Leah Hadley: So through the divorce, it just depends on the divorce itself. You know, it could be anywhere from three months to three years, really. But ongoing, you know, we work with people through their lifetime. So
Victoria Volk: And do you is it chart, like, a charge, like, per session? Or do you have packages? Like, how do you set up that that work environment for people.
Leah Hadley: Yeah. So on the divorce side of the business, we try to do as much as we can on a flat fee basis. Based on financial complexity. That’s because, you know, we want people to ask us questions. A lot of times, people won’t faster or surety questions because they’re worried about the bill. And so we really try to structure it that way. In terms of the investment management financial planning that we do ongoing basis. That is also on a flat fee for financial planning or a percentage of the assets that we manage, for portfolio manage.
Victoria Volk: Awesome. Well, I have learned a lot today, and I thank you for your time and your personal story and experience of what brought you to the work you’re doing today. And I I I always say this, but I think ninety nine point nine percent of the guests I have in my podcast, they’re doing what they do today because of their past experience. It’s, you know, we find our purpose through our pain often. And so I’m glad that you have phoned yourself in this situation to be of service to others in this way. I’m, you know, unfortunately, you had to go through some difficult times to get there, but I think I think anybody who’s been through a challenging time or a really hard transition eventually. We look back and like, oh, man, that sucked, but it sure really helped build my resilience and empower me to be who I am today. And I think that’s the message I want people to take away from today’s podcast is, one, plan ahead. Two, you’re not a failure. It’s it’s learning. Right? You’re always learning. And three, it’s this is temporary. Right? There’s hope. Absolutely. And your corner.
Leah Hadley: Well, thank you so much for the opportunity to be here with you. It was really my pleasure.
Victoria Volk: Thank you. And I will put links to your resources in the show notes. Again, divorce resource toolkit. Get your hands on it. Share it with someone you love who’s going through this that really could use some empowering information, you know, some baby steps. Information at least. So thank you again. And when remember, when you unleash your heart, you unleash your life. Much love.
Grief, Grief Tips, Grieving Voices Podcast, Pespective, Pregnancy & Infant Loss |
SHOW NOTES SUMMARY:
In a world where discussions about loss are often shrouded in silence, there’s a particular kind of grief that remains even more hidden—termination for medical reasons (TFMR).
Today on Grieving Voices, I had the honor of speaking with Sabrina Fletcher, a compassionate pregnancy loss doula who brings solace to parents facing the heart-wrenching decision of terminating a wanted pregnancy for medical reasons. Sabrina bravely shared her personal journey and how she’s turned her pain into purpose by supporting others through similar grief.
Key Points Discussed:
- The surprising prevalence of TFMR compared to stillbirths and the taboo surrounding it.
- The emotional turmoil and quick decisions forced upon parents facing unfavorable prenatal diagnoses.
- The grief journey taken by both Sabrina and her family following their loss, including how they each processed their emotions differently.
- Challenges within the healthcare system that fail to provide adequate support for those undergoing TFMR.
- Suggestions on improving medical care experiences during such sensitive times, including specialized bereavement care similar to practices in England.
TFMR is often shrouded in silence and taboo, but it’s more common than many realize. Sabrina advocates for open conversation and emotional support that upholds the dignity of those making these tough choices out of deep love for their children.
Our discussion also highlighted how even young children experience loss deeply and need acknowledgment in their grieving process—a powerful reminder not to underestimate our little ones’ emotional worlds.
Sabrina emphasizes breaking generational patterns by openly discussing grief rather than suppressing feelings – an approach shaped in contrast to what she experienced growing up, where losses were dealt with privately behind closed doors.
Remember: Transforming your grief doesn’t require grand gestures; small steps are just as significant.
RESOURCES:
CONNECT:
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NEED HELP?
- National Suicide Prevention Lifeline: 1-800-273-8255
- Crisis Text Line provides free, 24/7 support via text message. Text HOME to 741741 to connect with a trained Crisis Counselor
If you are struggling with grief due to any of the 40+ losses, free resources are available HERE.
CONNECT WITH VICTORIA:
Navigating the Silent Sorrow: Understanding and Supporting Termination for Medical Reasons (TFMR)
In a world where discussions about loss are often shrouded in silence, there’s a particular kind of grief that remains even more hidden—termination for medical reasons (TFMR). Today, we delve into this sensitive topic with insights from Sabrina Fletcher, a pregnancy loss doula who has turned her personal pain into a beacon of support for others facing similar heartbreak.
The Unspoken Grief of TFMR
While stillbirth is recognized as an agonizing experience warranting sympathy and support, TFMR is three times more common yet seldom discussed. Parents making the excruciating decision to end a wanted pregnancy due to severe health risks face not only profound sorrow but also societal stigmatization. This lack of understanding can leave bereaved parents feeling isolated in their grief.
Sabrina Fletcher knows this all too well. Her journey through TFMR led her to become an advocate and guide for those walking this lonely path. Through peer support, one-on-one sessions, workshops—and now our conversation on Grieving Voices—Sabrina offers solace by helping parents honor their love for the child they lost while finding light amidst darkness.
From Personal Loss to Providing Support
The taboo surrounding TFMR means many do not receive the compassionate care they desperately need—a reality Sabrina experienced firsthand when she had to make that impossible choice between her own health and her pregnancy. However, instead of succumbing to despair, she channeled her anguish into action.
Recognizing the void in supportive services during such losses inspired Sabrina’s mission: creating spaces free from judgment where individuals could share their unique stories of grief whether it be from pregnancy loss or other life-altering experiences like suicide or long-term caregiving.
Adapting Grief Support in Times of Crisis
When COVID-19 struck, it compelled many services—including grief support—to transition online. Although initially unplanned, virtual platforms have proven invaluable by fostering international communities united by shared experiences without geographical boundaries.
On these platforms like Instagram and Facebook groups created by Sabrina herself; people found comfort knowing they were not alone regardless if they were seeking help after losing someone close or grappling with anticipatory grief—the emotional suffering felt before an impending loss occurs.
A Framework For Healing
During our discussion on Grieving Voices podcast episode featuring Victoria V. Sabrina shared a practical approach she uses with clients navigating their mourning process:
1. **Acknowledge:** First comes recognizing physical manifestations associated with bereavement without rushing to interpret them.
2. **Assign:** Once ready emotionally; pinpointing specific feelings linked with these bodily sensations allows individuals clarity regarding their internal state.
3. **Align:** Finally taking steps towards healing whether through acts self-care or external efforts such as advocacy based upon acknowledged emotions provides direction amidst confusion brought about by sorrowful events.
This framework isn’t just theory—it’s been lived out through actions like therapy sessions community engagement daily check-ins friends going through similar situations—all contributing toward managing complex emotions following another pregnancy post-loss period fraught fear joy alike intertwining unpredictably within expectant parents’ hearts minds alike.
Transformative Power Compassion Action
Perhaps most importantly what resonates throughout conversations resources provided via platforms like [thetfmrddoula. com](http://thetfmrddoula.com) is notion transformative power compassion action hold when dealing kinds tragedies. No gesture is too small nor any step insignificant When comes to transforming raw painful emotions something meaningful tangible both individual collective level. Every story every voice adds richness tapestry human resilience empathy growth In closing let us remember words echoed Victoria herself “Treat me gently you would any grieving parent” encapsulating core message extending kindness understanding everyone traversing difficult terrain loss Remember open your heart truly transform your life. Much love
Episode Transcription:
Victoria Volk
00:00:00 – 00:00:32
Thank you for tuning to grieving voices. I am your host, Victoria V. And today my guest is Sabrina Fletcher. She guides bereaved parents through the heartbreak of losing a wanted pregnancy to a termination for medical reasons or also known as TFMR with groups 1 on 1 and workshops. As a pregnancy loss doula who’s been there herself, She companions people as they find the light in their stories and self-expression and the deep love they carry for their babies.
Victoria Volk
00:00:32 – 00:01:25
Thank you so much for being open enough to share about this on my podcast today. I was excited to hear about this because I, you know, you even said that it’s, 3 times more common than stillbirth,
Sabrina Fletcher
00:00:40 – 00:00:40
uh-hummm..
Victoria Volk
00:00:40 – 00:01:18
which was a surprising statistic to me because, I mean, I’d heard that yes, people can, you know, terminate a pregnancy because of medical reasons, but I didn’t realize there was like, an acronym for it
Sabrina Fletcher
00:01:18 – 00:01:19
You’re right.
Victoria Volk
00:01:19 – 00:01:21
there was an underbelly or undercurrent of, like, taboo or, you know
Sabrina Fletcher
00:01:21 – 00:01:21
Mmm..
Victoria Volk
00:01:21 – 00:01:23
about it and this yeah. That so I’m I think it’s a loss that is not talked about, like you said, very much.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:01:23 – 00:01:23
Yeah.
Victoria Volk
00:01:23 – 00:01:25
I haven’t heard it on I don’t listen to a ton of other grief podcasts just because I kinda wanna stay in my own lane. But
Sabrina Fletcher
00:01:25 – 00:01:25
Yeah. Yeah.
Victoria Volk
00:01:25 – 00:01:42
I’m excited to share this with my listeners broaden our perspective of grief and, talk about it. So thank you so much for being open to sharing your journey, which brings us to 2018. And do you mind starting there?
Sabrina Fletcher
00:01:43 – 00:02:05
Sure. Thank you so much, Victoria. And thank you for having me on to talk about this piece of pregnancy loss that is silenced and shamed. And in some spaces, it’s becoming a little bit more openly spoken about, and I think that as more people speak about it, more people understand. Oh, okay.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:02:05 – 00:02:16
Yes. This is another type of pregnancy loss. That is what if they went through it themselves. That is what I really experienced. And like you said, I went through it myself in 2018.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:02:16 – 00:02:53
It was early 2018 and we had a bad ultrasound result where we could see and the doctor was showing us the different abnormalities and what was wrong with our baby. And one of the conditions there were various things that were showing up. One of the conditions was swelling in the head and the chest and the back of the neck. And since it was pretty much all over the body and the torso, he was calling it hydrops. So that’s just the name for fetal swelling.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:02:55 – 00:03:32
And that along with other things, you know, we went home and I was researching, and I also found out and he told me at that ultrasound. He said you know, if you decide to continue the pregnancy, this is now a high-risk pregnancy, but I didn’t really know the extent of that. I found out that high drops can cause similar swelling in the pregnant person and they call it mirror syndrome. So it could have caused harm to my organs as well. It’s just very devastating because this was a wanted baby.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:03:32 – 00:03:49
I took this whole fertility course. I was tracking my cycles. I knew my ovulation date. We wanted her in our family, but then when we found out she was sick and also the condition that she was carrying could have harmed my health. We did decide to terminate the pregnancy.
Victoria Volk
00:03:51 – 00:03:56
And you had another child. You have already had one child. Correct? Or did I read that?
Sabrina Fletcher
00:03:56 – 00:04:02
Yeah. That’s right. That’s right. So my oldest daughter was 4 years old at the time.
Victoria Volk
00:04:03 – 00:04:14
And so just a matter of, I mean, trying to put this in perspective for people listening, you still have to function on the day-to-day and care for a 4-year-old.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:04:15 – 00:04:15
Yeah. Function.
Victoria Volk
00:04:16 – 00:04:18
Right? After receiving this news.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:04:18 – 00:04:18
Mmm..
Victoria Volk
00:04:18 – 00:04:28
And how did you like? How do you what did those early days and weeks looked like? And then how long did it take you to come? Like, how long did you give yourself to
Sabrina Fletcher
00:04:29 – 00:04:30
Mmm
Victoria Volk
00:04:30 – 00:04:35
come to that decision? And was your husband also on board right off the right out of the gate too?
Sabrina Fletcher
00:04:35 – 00:04:35
Mmm
Victoria Volk
00:04:36 – 00:04:40
Because you were maybe sometimes that could be a conflict for some relationships.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:04:41 – 00:05:35
Oh, yeah. I mean, it wasn’t an easy decision. I mean, it ended up being clear after we did enough research and talked to the doctors and I was looking at different medical journals and all the research that I could get my hands on that wasn’t behind a paywall, you know, because I’m not a medical researcher myself. I don’t I don’t have all of those subscriptions. So what what I could find and what I could see, and also finding other people’s stories online, it led me to see that this is also a compassionate choice to decide to induce early really, and help her pass peacefully instead of coming to term, going to term, or possibly not even making it that far and would she die in utero, or would we have to have some crazy it’s not even a c section.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:05:35 – 00:06:09
It’s called a exit strategy where they, like, take everything out all at once. And, you know, it’s very hard on both the baby and the and the pregnant person and and she was already sick. So, you know, could she get through that kind of medical trauma to even then be, you know, with all the tubes and all the life support and everything, and then how long or you know, or would I hold her in my arms as she died? You know, there there’s really no right way to go about it because there are people in my community. I went on to become a pregnancy loss doula.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:06:10 – 00:06:39
I’ve always wanted to be a doula. But then when this happened to me, I realized, oh, this is the place in birth that I really want to focus on. I really want to support people who are going through this. And some of those families in one pregnancy, like, maybe they carried some sort of genetic something, disposition or disorder, whatever you would like to call it. And maybe some of their children do carry it or maybe they do bring some pregnancies to term and, you know, their babies die in their arms.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:06:39 – 00:07:06
And then in another pregnancy, they decide to terminate. There’s really there’s no there’s no right there’s no right way. It’s just whatever feels best for you and your family in that moment. And that’s how we made our decision. We just felt like that was the best for this baby, for my body, and the fact that we already had a living daughter that we were also taking care of.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:07:06 – 00:07:17
And there’s also another grief story in our family. My husband lost his mom when he was about 6 years old. And so he was like, woah. No. No.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:07:17 – 00:07:32
We cannot lose you. You have to be here for our older daughter. So that really became a big part of the decision as well. It wasn’t overnight. You know, it took us a few days, but we were also up against a crunch.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:07:32 – 00:08:00
So, with the restrictive laws to have an abortion, no questions asked, we had a week. So we didn’t really have that much time to decide. So we had to make this decision very quickly. I do feel like there are pieces of my decision that were taken from me. I wasn’t really given all of there wasn’t enough time to get all the information that I would have liked to get.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:08:01 – 00:08:19
You know, I would have liked to have an amniocentesis, but we were only 13 weeks along at that point. And you have to wait till 16, 18 weeks. And, I did ask the doctor, you know, when he was telling us all the bad news about an amniocentesis. It could have came back clear too. So that’s the thing.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:08:19 – 00:08:35
Like, we were already seeing how sick she was. But you know, it is good to know all of the medical information before making, you know, a drastic medical decision like this. So it’s really very very awful.
Victoria Volk
00:08:36 – 00:08:40
I’m just thinking about like someone who’s having to go through this and make this decision or decides to make this decision. And yet, you know when you often think about when we hear the word abortion, right?
Sabrina Fletcher
00:08:40 – 00:08:40
Mmm
Victoria Volk
00:08:41 – 00:09:10
we hear the child does not they don’t want the child. Right? It’s for whatever reason, whatever the circumstances, like they choose that they’re, they’re not, it’s not a good time for them for whatever reason. We don’t think that someone who’s sitting in the waiting room is there because they really want the baby
Sabrina Fletcher
00:09:10 – 00:09:10
Uhumm..
Victoria Volk
00:09:10 – 00:09:12
and there’s a medical reason why they’re there or, you know,
Sabrina Fletcher
00:09:12 – 00:09:12
Yeah.
Victoria Volk
00:09:12 – 00:09:13
a circumstance like yourself.
Victoria Volk
00:09:13 – 00:09:25
And I think that’s a really miscarriage. That’s a miscarriage of grief. And it also is for the person who is choosing that for themselves, because I mean like it or not, there is going to be grief there involved.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:09:25 – 00:09:25
Uhumm..
Victoria Volk
00:09:2 – 00:09:40
You know? Even if it’s not, you know, felt the full weight of it in the moment, even years later, I have no doubts that there are women that experienced grief for many years later.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:09:40 – 00:10:05
Mhmm. But Yeah. I definitely agree. And after going through this experience myself and having an abortion for reasons that were just so filled with love and compassion, And I never been through what I guess we could call a a lifestyle abortion but I kind of had those misconceptions too. It’s like, oh, it just means they just they don’t want this baby.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:10:05 – 00:10:23
Like, this isn’t a wanted baby. But I realized, I think all of those decisions are made with the greatest amount of love and respect as well. It’s like, I don’t want this life for this child. There’s still so much love in that decision. Or like, I can’t do this to a child right now.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:10:23 – 00:10:38
Like, that’s so much love. So, so much love. And, yes, you’re right. Of course, there will be grief there. Many people do experience grief with these decisions, whether it’s for medical reasons, whether it’s for lifestyle reasons.
Victoria Volk
00:10:39 – 00:10:51
What do you wish would have been different about that experience and what do you think needs to change in how women are supported
Sabrina Fletcher
00:10:48 – 00:10:48
Mmm
Victoria Volk
00:10:49 – 00:10:51
In the medical setting in particular.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:10:51 – 00:11:19
Yeah. Yeah. So there are some people who I like to look to England. They have a pretty good system set up when it’s going to be an abortion for medical reasons, for fetal anomaly, or the pregnant person’s health, they’re earmarked in a certain direction, and they end up going with bereavement midwives. So these are midwives who are grief-informed, hopefully, trauma informed.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:11:20 – 00:11:59
They, you know, they see the family. They see the baby as a baby. They see it as palliative hospice care, which it really is. It’s it’s end-of-life care for that baby and for or to help the the mother or the pregnant person, you know not die. And they help people to get footprints or like, make a scrapbook or you know, they’ll bring in a chaplain or they’ll help you with the funeral arrangements.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:12:00 – 00:12:18
You know, it’s a it’s a death of a family member. And I think it’s that piece that was missing in my experience. Because of the laws, I ended up going to an abortion clinic, which put me in the box of lifestyle abortion. My husband was there with me, and we had so many tears and we asked for a private room. They said, oh, no.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:12:18 – 00:12:39
We don’t do that thing. We were asking for these things that other people get in some places. And in some hospitals worldwide, they will do this sort of bereavement care where they have a special room that’s on another floor, so you don’t hear the laboring women and then babies crying. We didn’t have that. We didn’t have a special extra room.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:12:39 – 00:13:03
We didn’t have a bereavement midwife. We didn’t have someone informed in grief. We didn’t have anyone saying, I’m sorry for your loss. They’re really very simple, compassionate things that I wish I would have had. The doctor who helped us, did understand our whole situation, and he did say, I’m, you know, I’m so sorry for your loss.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:13:03 – 00:13:37
So that meant so much. You know? It’s just those few words, like really seeing us as bereaved parents. And I asked for footprints and he was able to get them. So some pieces of my story do have some respect and honor and reverence in it, but a lot of it I mean, the counselor that they had on hand, I kept talking about grief and, like, asking for grief resources, and she was like, I don’t really know.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:13:40 – 00:13:59
And I thought, oh, you know, I thought, like, I can’t be the only one who’s coming here because their baby is sick and they’re grieving and they’re having to end a wanted pregnancy. But I guess maybe I was or I don’t know. So those are the things that I wish would have been different in my story.
Victoria Volk
00:13:59 – 00:14:00
Well, you know now that you weren’t because it’s more common than
Sabrina Fletcher
00:14:00 – 00:14:00
Yes
Victoria Volk
00:14:01 – 00:14:06
3 times more common than stillbirth and
Sabrina Fletcher
00:14:06 – 00:14:08
Amazing.
Speaker 1
00:14:08 – 00:14:13
And I’m sure do you have a statistic, like a more recent recent statistic as far as how common this is overall?
Sabrina Fletcher
00:14:15 – 00:14:35
Oh, that’s that’s the most recent one. So that’s some research that came out of Europe, I think, combined with England because they do earmark these cases. They do have, like, specific categories. So they’re they are able to see, okay, this termination is a early induction. This termination is a pregnancy loss.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:14:37 – 00:15:00
And that research, yeah, came out of Europe a a few years ago. And they found that with the numbers that they have in Europe and England, these countries combined, the number of stillbirths are so many, and then the number of TFMR pregnancy loss, are 3 times as many as that number.
Victoria Volk
00:15:01 – 00:15:12
Do you know of any places in the United States that are implementing some sort of like what you just described for women going through this?
Sabrina Fletcher
00:15:13 – 00:15:40
Yes. Some of the better stories that I hear are coming out of some places in the US. I’ve heard some really good stories out of Washington DC and then other big hospitals across the nation. But they’re the bigger the bigger hospitals maybe who see more of these cases, and I think it’s really prior patients like me
Victoria Volk
00:15:41 – 00:15:41
Mhmm.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:15:41 – 00:15:46
Writing in or calling in or speaking up after and saying, why didn’t this happen?
Sabrina Fletcher
00:15:46 – 00:15:55
Or I read this story, and they got this kind of care. And why didn’t we have that? And I really believe that that’s why they get better care now.
Victoria Volk
00:15:56 – 00:16:20
There’s an organization called death with dignity, dying with dignity, 1 or the other. And, but their whole goal is to push legislation across the country in the United States for basically to die with for people to have the ability to die with dignity. And there’s a whole lot of things that go into that. But, I can see something like that being applied in this manner
Sabrina Fletcher
00:16:20 – 00:16:20
Mhmm.
Victoria Volk
00:16:21 – 00:16:40
for the situation, like for legislation to be put into place that requires hospitals and medical care staff and maybe even perhaps, you know, and I think it’s almost gonna take 1 like, lone ranger to blaze the trail and create some sort of independent facility. And then you know how it can kind of snowball from there
Sabrina Fletcher
00:16:41 – 00:16:41
Mhmm.
Victoria Volk
00:16:42 – 00:16:59
where women feel, more supported in that decision with all the things that you said that you wish would have been there for you.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:17:00 – 00:17:00
Yeah.
Victoria Volk
00:17:00 – 00:17:20
And on that note, I mean, grief is the loss of hopes, dreams, and expectations, and anything that we wish would have been different, better, or more. And so how did you and your husband together and independently kind of work through that loss? And your daughter. I mean
Sabrina Fletcher
00:17:21 – 00:17:22
Mmm. My daughter.
Victoria Volk
00:17:22 – 00:17:24
Or she had an awareness of you know, by the age of 3, we’ve already learned how to respond to most of life
Sabrina Fletcher
00:17:25 – 00:17:25
Mmm.
Victoria Volk
00:17:25 – 00:17:26
already by 3.
Victoria Volk
00:17:26 – 00:17:28
So can you speak to that a little bit?
Sabrina Fletcher
00:17:29 – 00:18:08
So as a family and her my husband, and myself, we all went on our unique grief journeys. Some of it was together. We had a memorial service for her, and my daughter was there. I wanted her to take part. I wanted there to be, you know, some sort of symbolic recognition that, yes, a family member died in our family and, you know, this was your sibling and it’s okay to talk about it.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:18:08 – 00:18:19
It’s okay to bring it up. It’s okay to cry. It’s okay to make art about it. It’s okay to you know, like, she would draw. I don’t even know where this came from.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:18:19 – 00:18:39
Like, instinctively, she made these, like, stone funeral Karnes. I think that’s how you say it, where they, like, make these stone mounds, but they’re and her so my husband’s father died 2 weeks before our baby did
Victoria Volk
00:18:39 – 00:18:40
Oh, wow.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:18:40 – 00:19:01
As well. So there was there was a lot of grief and death awareness happening for her that month and in the months to follow. So I remember she said, this is for a. This is for grandfather. And she had made this stone, corn.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:19:01 – 00:19:25
And then she said, and this is for my sister. This is for Clara. And she had made kind of a smaller stone and brick structure. And she had placed them like right in front of both sides of our front door.
Victoria Volk
00:19:25 – 00:19:25
Mmm.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:19:26 – 00:19:28
My husband, I saw him really throw himself into work, so he chose the, like stay busy.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:19:28 – 00:19:53
And, also, life is really short, so I really wanna provide for my family. I really want us to be okay. I see my wife really sub me, you know, really suffering physically and going through all this. So he would work late hours. He would he would listen to me when I wanted to talk about it, but not as much talking maybe more of just needing to stay busy.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:19:54 – 00:20:27
And for me, I think I did pretty much anything I could get my hands on. So I remember looking for a postpartum doula, looking for a grief or some sort of pregnancy loss practitioner to help me through. I did some emails with one of them. I did hire a postpartum doula. They urged me to do all of my creative things or new creative things, so drawing, painting.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:20:27 – 00:21:14
Well, some of those came later, maybe like a year or 2 later. But I did do some photography or even just like, mindless distracting things, like puzzles or little phone games and watching lighthearted TV to help with you know, those moments where it’s just like, oh, I’ve been thinking about this all day and just going over and over and over and over in my head about it. And no thoughts are going to fix these emotions. No thoughts are going to bring her back or help us go back in time and make sure that the egg and the sperm were the perfect quality, and then she wasn’t sick for whatever reason. You know?
Sabrina Fletcher
00:21:14 – 00:21:38
I couldn’t go back in time to fix those things. I had to feel just a little bit more okay in that moment. I did a lot of sitting in the grass with my shoes off, my feet in the grass. So grounding just and I would just sit there. And then sometimes I would I would do, like, meditative walking, but I was so angry.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:21:38 – 00:22:04
You know, I remember walking around my garden, and I live in Mexico, and the flowers bloom all year around here. And there was this amazing, like, huge red like, bigger than my head, red flower. And I would walk by it, and I would just get so angry. Like, why are you blooming and my baby isn’t here? Like, I’m walking by this beautiful flower, and it’s just in my face, and yet I knew, well, I just need to walk.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:22:04 – 00:22:13
I need to walk by it. I need to feel this anger. I need to sit with it. But then it would be like, okay. Time to go pick up my daughter.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:22:14 – 00:22:23
So it was hard to manage, you know, all the time and space that grief asks along with daily tasks.
Victoria Volk
00:22:24 – 00:22:28
Yeah. It’s like the stoneward spiral thought wheel was like you know,
Sabrina Fletcher
00:22:29 – 00:22:29
Mmm.
Victoria Volk
00:22:29 – 00:22:58
It’s like a tornado of thoughts, and I can just I was imagining it as you were walking around this flower and just I can feel from you. It’s just so important for people to hear that in those moments like you were you how you were able to just allow yourself to feel the anger. And I think so many people just don’t allow themselves to feel the anger because growing up, you’re taught that anger is wrong. It’s bad.
Victoria Volk
00:22:58 – 00:22:58
And
Sabrina Fletcher
00:22:58 – 00:23:02
Yeah. Even grief too. Like, push it down. Go to work.
Victoria Volk
00:23:02 – 00:23:06
But it is an element of grief. Anger is grief. Really.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:23:06 – 00:23:06
It is.
Victoria Volk
00:23:07 – 00:23:12
Did you like for your husband, you know, I meant not talking about it.
Victoria Volk
00:23:12 – 00:23:26
And you said he kept himself very busy. Did he, did you see him? Did you view it as a stuffing down or did he find, did he eventually, did he start talking about it more or how did that change for him over time?
Sabrina Fletcher
00:23:28 – 00:23:48
Mmmm. He would have to come on and share his whole story because it’s pretty intense the way things ended up showing up for him quite later. But I guess I could say, eventually, he had some therapy, and I think that helped. So he was able to talk.
Victoria Volk
00:23:48 – 00:23:48
Mhmm.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:23:49- 00:23:54
And he’s also, a sweat lodge.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:23:55 – 00:23:58
He runs a sweat lodge,
Victoria Volk
00:23:58 – 00:23:58
Oh
Sabrina Fletcher
00:23:59 – 00:24:09
He runs a sweat lodge,
and he has a spa. And so he works with crystals and massage. And so he so his work, I think even going to work and helping others
Victoria Volk
00:24:09 – 00:24:09
Mhmm.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:24:10 – 00:24:14
Or sometimes they’ll, like, trade massage. So he was also working through things at work.
Victoria Volk
00:24:14 – 00:24:15
Yeah. I can see that.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:24:15 – 00:24:23
And he would go and he would go in the sweat lodge. He also sings. So he has his outlets. They’re just different than mine. Mhmm.
Victoria Volk
00:24:24 – 00:24:28
Mhmm. And honoring that for each other. Right?
Sabrina Fletcher
00:24:28 – 00:24:28
Mhmm.
Victoria Volk
00:24:28 – 00:24:28
But like you said, he was able to he would listen to you and that’s sometimes all you need really is someone to just
Sabrina Fletcher
00:24:30 – 00:24:30
Yeah.
Victoria Volk
00:24:31 – 00:24:43
try and fix, just listen. And so I’m glad he was in that line of work because that probably actually is what helped him find his way eventually to therapy.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:24:43 – 00:24:45
Yeah. Yeah.
Victoria Volk
00:24:45 – 00:25:27
I was gonna ask too the question I had thought of earlier and then forgot. So growing up, what was, what were the messages? Because I how you articulated when your daughter was going through this, when you lost your baby, and then you’re talking about how it was important for you, for her, that she recognized grief and you had a lot of grief going on at the time, but how to allow her to channel it and honor her feelings and things like that. So what were what was your experience with grief growing up in the beliefs that you had about loss and like because in, you know, especially in my area, like German
Sabrina Fletcher
00:25:28 – 00:25:30
Right.
Victoria Volk
00:25:30 – 00:25:34
Like or talk about our grief and what happens in the house?
Sabrina Fletcher
00:25:34 – 00:25:47
Yeah, stiff upper lip and all that and like, You know, pick yourself up by the bootstraps and carry on. No. That’s definitely my lineage as well.
Victoria Volk
00:25:48 – 00:25:48
Okay.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:25:50 – 00:26:31
And I understand more now about what I experienced with grief than when it was actually going on. There really weren’t any close deaths until my grandmother died when I was yeah, I was already in my twenties. But she had a brother who died in World War 2. And, I mean, that would have been so many years ago, but my mother told me that on certain days you know, I don’t know what days. Now I imagine, oh, it was probably his birthday.
Victoria Volk
00:25:26 – 00:26:31
Mhmm.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:26:31 – 00:26:52
Or it could have been some milestone that her children were reaching and her brother wasn’t there to see it. Maybe it was even her own birthday. You know, the passing of time is really hard, especially since he would have died so young, like a very young man. And then here she was, like, living a full long life, and he’s not there.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:26:52 – 00:27:22
Well, my mom would say you know, she would go in her room and cry. So in a way, you know, behind closed doors That’s my grief legacy. So why I decided to be so open and why I felt like it was so important? I don’t know. Maybe it’s a reaction to that like, seeing how it was so closed and not really talked about and like, get on with your life and just move along.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:27:23 – 00:27:30
I felt like it was important to talk about it and be open about it. And I saw my daughter hurting. I didn’t I didn’t want to just say, oh, just go to school. That didn’t feel right to me.
Victoria Volk
00:27:30 – 00:27:30
Mhmm.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:27:31 – 00:27:37
You know, just get back to school.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:27:37 – 00:27:48
Just throw yourself into your schoolwork. I never said anything like that to her. So maybe it’s a reaction to what I grew up with and felt like it wasn’t enough.
Victoria Volk
00:27:49 – 00:27:57
After all the people I’ve talked to, the 4 plus years I’ve been doing this podcast, I am like almost 190 episodes. Not all.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:27:57 – 00:27:57
Yeah
Victoria Volk
00:27:58 – 00:28:18
So not all not all interviews, but I think there’s 2 camps of people. And like you just said, I think there’s people that grow up and learn these things about grief that are unhelpful and hurtful and self-sabotaging. And they see that contrast when they’re met with something in their lives.
Victoria Volk
00:28:18 – 00:28:29
And they remember that contrast of that experience. Like, we didn’t talk about it. And I felt shamed for or you know, if you have feel shame for bringing up the person’s name
Sabrina Fletcher
00:28:29 – 00:28:29
Mmm
Victoria Volk
00:28:30 – 00:28:40
because, you know, it makes other people uncomfortable or angry or sad or whatever it is. So there’s no room for your feelings. You know, you can grow up that way with no, there’s no room.
Victoria Volk
00:28:40 – 00:28:54
So then you step down and you don’t talk about it. Right? And then that continues through generations. And that’s what happens. But sometimes there’s camps of people, though, the other camp that sees that contrast and breaks that cycle.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:28:55 – 00:28:55
Mmm.
Victoria Volk
00:28:56 – 00:29:17
So congratulations on doing that because you teach your daughter how to respond to grief by how you respond to grief. And I think that’s the message that I want to get across and why I started this podcast is because I’m a child griever.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:29:17 – 00:29:17
Mmm.
Victoria Volk
00:29:18 – 00:29:21
My dad died when I was young, and there was like,
Sabrina Fletcher
00:29:23 – 00:29:27
yeah, it’s like resources. No talking about it.
Victoria Volk
00:29:27 – 00:29:30
Yep. Or well, in my case,
Victoria Volk
00:29:30 – 00:29:35
it was there was a lot of talking about it from my mother. Of course, she lost her husband, but just no room for me.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:29:35 – 00:29:35
Mhmm.
Victoria Volk
00:29:36 – 00:29:48
That’s what I was getting at is that even though it is talked about yet, it’s not where you feel you can share. Like, you can’t share.
Victoria Volk
00:29:49 – 00:29:57
There’s no open sharing. And that’s there’s all kinds of family dynamics and how that plays out and different scenarios and circumstances. And we could sit here all day long about all of those. But
Sabrina Fletcher
00:29:57 – 00:30:02
Oh, yeah. I’ve been the stories about that too. Yeah.
Victoria Volk
00:30:03 – 00:30:16
Condenses down to either you learn these things and you continue that pattern onto your kids or you break that cycle because you see the importance of what you would have wanted for yourself and then create that
Sabrina Fletcher
00:30:16 – 00:30:17
Mmm
Victoria Volk
00:30:17 – 00:30:17
for your children
Victoria Volk
00:30:17 – 00:30:32
for the legacy that follows behind. So that’s I think that’s a very important takeaway for people listening to this, who have children who are going through grieving experiences too, because like you said, it’s she lost her sister too, even though she was 4
Sabrina Fletcher
00:30:32 – 00:30:32
Yeah
Victoria Volk
00:30:32 – 00:30:43
years old. And it’s very easy for parents to assume that, oh, they’re so little. They don’t understand. Anyway, I was 8 and people were saying that I see 8 year olds now. And I’m like, wow.
Victoria Volk
00:30:43 – 00:30:52
Like, I don’t know if I was that articulate or that I was that smart, but I would hope I was., Like, 8 year olds understand. Come on. Like, really?
Sabrina Fletcher
00:30:52 – 00:30:53
Yeah.
Victoria Volk
00:30:53 – 00:31:54
And so do 4 year olds. So
Sabrina Fletcher
00:30:55 – 00:30:55
Yeah.
Victoria Volk
00:30:55 – 00:31:02
Thank you for sharing in that as much as you did because I think it’s important for people to hear. No matter the loss.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:31:03 – 00:31:30
Thank you. Thank you, Victoria. Yeah. I even said to my daughter a couple days ago, I just said, I really appreciate how you opened up to me and what you shared about, you know, your sadness. And, you know, when Clara we named her Clara when Clara died and how we went through that together.
Victoria Volk
00:31:31 – 00:31:35
And in the work that you’re doing today, you can share that experience with people too.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:31:35 – 00:31:35
Mmm
Victoria Volk
00:31:35 – 00:31:54
If they have other children that are experiencing that loss as the fam, you know, with along with the family unit. And so, or when did you start doing the work that you’re doing? Because the loss happened in 2018, but when did you finally feel ready to, support others?
Sabrina Fletcher
00:31:56 – 00:31:59
Mmm. So, symbolically, I feel like I started while I was in the recovery chair.
Victoria Volk
00:31:59 – 00:32:01
Mmm. Like many people do.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:32:01 – 00:32:19
You know, after I had had my I guess we could call it a d and c, And I was like, where’s my doula? Like, there’s no one here saying, how are you feeling? Or I’m sitting here beside you.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:32:19 – 00:32:32
Can I hold your hand? Would you like water? Something like that. You know, just those simple, caring things that we need, especially in very early grief. And with pregnancy loss, it’s a grief through your body.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:32:32 – 00:33:00
So there’s, like, the physical recovery that needs to happen. So I was thinking, where is she? And then I realized I’m going to be her. That’s what I wanna do. And then I also realized, and I need to go through my own healing process first so that I can fully show up for other people from a healed place.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:33:02 – 00:33:40
So it was mid 2020, the fall of 2020. By the time I created an Instagram account, the TFMR doula, and just started bringing people together. And we would, you know, talk in stories or in the comments and making connections with other pregnancy loss spaces. And then I created a Facebook group for us to go a little bit deeper and have more conversations in a place where no one else is coming in and being like, well, I wouldn’t have made that choice. It’s like, thank you.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:33:40 – 00:33:41
That’s unhelpful.
Victoria Volk
00:33:41 – 00:33:42
Mmm.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:33:42 – 00:34:18
You know, just like people who their loved one has died by suicide, you know, they deserve to have a special space there because there’s certain layers that only they will be going through. Or if they’ve been a long-term caregiver for Alzheimer’s or cancer or something, and then their loved loved one dies. You know? They have all that anticipatory grief years to to talk about and being in groups where where people just understand, you know, the hardships and the things that other people say to you when you’re going through all of this.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:34:18 – 00:34:34
It’s good to have those specific places for people who have been through it with other people who have been through. I mean, I can’t say exactly. All of our cases are unique, but, yeah, exactly that type of loss.
Victoria Volk
00:34:34 – 00:34:34
Mhmm.
Victoria Volk
00:34:35 – 00:34:37
And that was, like, during COVID started
Sabrina Fletcher
00:34:37 – 00:34:39
It was.
Victoria Volk
00:34:39 – 00:34:40
So how did that, like I mean, there’s grief in that too. Like, you just
Sabrina Fletcher
00:34:40 – 00:34:40
Oh,
Victoria Volk
00:34:41 – 00:34:7
so much. Thing. I know. I started my business doing grief work and stuff 2019,
Sabrina Fletcher
00:34:47 – 00:34:47
Mmm.
Victoria Volk
00:34:48 – 00:34:49
early 2019.
Victoria Volk
00:34:49 – 00:35:14
And I gained so much momentum. And I was doing in person talks and things like that and doing in person groups. And then COVID hit, and it’s like but that’s when I took, you know, the opportunity to just get a lot more training and certifications online and just build my toolbox. And so that’s what I did during that time. But what it how did you kind of deal with that?
Victoria Volk
00:35:14 – 00:35:24
Because there’s this thing here. You just birthed out, and then it’s like, oh, I mean, no pun intended. That was a terrible pun. Like, that I’m sorry.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:35:25 – 00:35:25
Oh, gosh.
Victoria Volk
00:35:25 – 00:35:26
I just thought that
Sabrina Fletcher
00:35:26 – 00:35:28
But yeah. No. But it’s a birth. Right? It is.
Speaker 2
00:35:28 – 00:35:31
It’s a Mother. Yeah. It’s birth from love. Right? Because you you birthed
Victoria Volk
00:35:31 – 00:35:33
it out of your experience.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:35:33 – 00:35:35
So It is. It is.
Victoria Volk
00:35:36 – 00:35:36
Yeah.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:35:36 – 00:35:45
It is. And so I was unable to do the in person pregnancy loss doula work that I wanted to.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:35:45 – 00:36:19
You know, I really wanted to be the sit by your side in that recovery chair and hold your hand and say, yeah. It’s okay to cry because you’re a bereaved mother and all the things that I needed to hear. And I also knew that I wanted to do the bulk of my support services online, So I already knew that I wanted most of it to be virtual. Like, the big community aspect of it, I always had in mind that it was going to be virtual. So whenever when everything went virtual, it helped in a way because then other people were open to receiving support in virtual ways.
Victoria Volk
00:36:21 – 00:36:24
That’s true. Yeah. That’s a good point.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:36:25 – 00:36:35
But that was that was my specific situation where I always knew I wanted, you know, most of it to be virtual so that we can meet internationally. Right.
Victoria Volk
00:36:35 – 00:36:39
It’s more accessible. Right?
Sabrina Fletcher
00:36:39 – 00:36:39
Mmm.
Victoria Volk
00:36:40 – 00:37:01
And that’s the thing I think that came out of COVID is that so many of these resources that exist today are because the virtual and people are more open to that because that is the way of the world now.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:36:58 – 00:36:58
Mmm.
Victoria Volk
00:36:58 – 00:37:01
So there’s more availability, but there’s also, like you said, more buy in where people are more apt to give it a chance and see if it’ll work for them.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:37:01 – 00:37:12
Yeah. So when I started doing live workshops or like little support groups and it was on Zoom, I knew that people already had that program at least.
Victoria Volk
00:37:12 – 00:37:12
Mhmm.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:37:13 – 00:37:16
They were familiar with it, so I could just say Zoom. I didn’t need to explain what it was.
Victoria Volk
00:37:16 – 00:37:16
Right.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:37:16 – 00:37:53
Because before 2020, anything that was online, if you weren’t already like an online entrepreneur or something, you didn’t know all of these programs and the terms and the things. But now, we’ve all been educated on doing it all online, which it can get exhausting too in some sense. And now that, you know, COVID is not at its height, we do wanna do in-person annual retreats as well because it is important to meet. It is important to get those hugs.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:37:53 – 00:38:18
It is important to, you know, see people face to face. And I wanna have those experiences too, where we can really see I’m really not alone in this. Here’s another flesh and blood person who has made this choice, who loves their baby deeply, who is grieving just as deeply as I am. And here we are sitting together.
Victoria Volk
00:38:19 – 00:38:20
And in Mexico. I mean
Sabrina Fletcher
00:38:20 – 00:38:28
Yes. I mean, great. So come and come and get some sun. Come and spray. Yeah.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:38:28 – 00:38:34
We we may end up doing the next one in in the US, though, because a lot of my community members are in the US.
Victoria Volk
00:38:36 – 00:38:53
So what were some of the ways I mean, I know that there was a lot that wasn’t there for you, but what were some of the ways that other people supported you that you found helpful, most helpful during that time and either for your daughter or for your husband or for yourself or as a family? Like, what would you share with people?
Sabrina Fletcher
00:38:54 – 00:39:13
For myself, the biggest resource, the most helpful resource was a another Facebook group. And they were the inspiration for me creating my own as well. And they and they’re still functioning. They’re a great community. They’re called ending a wanted pregnancy.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:39:14 – 00:39:41
I think it’s just ending a wanted pregnancy dot com. And you go through this application process, and then you’re in the Facebook group with only other people who have been through it or their immediate partners. You know, there are no health professionals who just wanna know how to help other people. There are no grandparents or siblings who you know, wanna like, look in.
Victoria Volk
00:39:42 – 00:39:42
Mmm.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:39:42 – 00:39:44
It’s completely closed.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:39:44 – 00:40:08
And so because I knew that that community was so highly screened and closed and I think even secret. So at that time, Facebook had secret groups. They’ve changed their settings. It’s something else. I mean, it still kind of exists in that way where no one else on your friend on your friend list can see that you’re in this group.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:40:08 – 00:40:23
No one else can even, like, search for it and see, like, who the members are. It’s unsearchable. It’s secret. So I knew this was a safe place. I was able to bring all of these emotions and feelings that I couldn’t talk to anybody else.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:40:23 – 00:40:59
I had a place to bring it to, and I could read what other people were feeling and thinking and going through and struggling with and ways that they were honoring their babies and you know, how they were taking part in broad pregnancy loss spaces as well. And I remember thinking, oh, I can do that. Oh, I can help myself in that way too. Oh, I can honor my baby in that way. So that was a really beautiful experience finding that group and taking part.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:40:59 – 00:41:15
You know, I’ve made amazing friendships through people in that group. And like I said, they inspired me to open another Facebook group. And since then, we have more. There are more. I mean, not that many, maybe like a dozen.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:41:15 – 00:41:34
But more than at the time when I went through it, it was basically just that group and maybe some anonymous forum that was visible to the public on baby center at that time. Now people tend to go to Reddit for that sort of anonymous experience, which has its place too.
Victoria Volk
00:41:36 – 00:41:42
Would you mind sharing your Facebook page, what it’s called? Can is it searchable, or is yours also private and
Sabrina Fletcher
00:41:42 – 00:41:59
Well, it my mine is searchable, but it’s closed. No one can see that you’re in it. But I do also do a application process. So it’s on my website, thetfmrdoula.com/facebookgroup. All one word.
Victoria Volk
00:42:01 – 00:42:04
And I will put the link to that in the show notes as well.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:42:04 – 00:42:13
Thank you. Yeah. It’s it’s a a wonderful space. And it’s a community space. You know, I started it.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:42:13 – 00:42:34
I run it. I facilitate. I facilitate the space for people to come and share their stories and give and get support and ask the questions that they can’t ask anywhere else because other people just say, oh, well, just be grateful that you have 2 other living kids
Victoria Volk
00:42:35 – 00:42:35
Mmm.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:42:35 – 00:42:39
Or like, you’ll get pregnant again. It’s like, what? Like, can you imagine?
Sabrina Fletcher
00:42:39 – 00:42:47
Well, you’ll get married again. Or, like, you still have your mom. You don’t need your dad. Like, okay. The things that people say.
Victoria Volk
00:42:49 – 00:43:55
Without thinking. Really. I mean, like, if you say it back to them like, did you I mean, just let me say that back to you out loud so you can hear it.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:42:56 – 00:42:56
Mhmm.
Victoria Volk
00:42:56 – 00:43:00
Does that sound okay?
Victoria Volk
00:43:01 – 00:43:09
I mean, what’s what about that sounds okay? It’s almost like, you know, I’m I, I just developed a pet loss program.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:42:10 – 00:42:10
Mhmm.
Victoria Volk
00:43:10 – 00:43:17
And, it’s not launched yet, but it’s it’s like people so commonly especially with pets, like, you can just get another pet. And it’s like, okay. So
Sabrina Fletcher
00:43:17 – 00:43:20
Well, yeah, you can, and it’s not that pet that you
Victoria Volk
00:43:21 – 00:43:25
Right. It’s like people don’t say that too, like, when your grand when your mom dies.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:43:25 – 00:43:25
Right.
Victoria Volk
00:43:26 – 00:43:28
Well, you can just get a mom. Just get another mom. I mean
Sabrina Fletcher
00:43:28 – 00:43:31
Just get another one.
Victoria Volk
00:43:31 – 00:43:32
It’s, yeah, it’s one of the myths
Victoria Volk
00:43:32 – 00:43:33
of grief is replace the loss and,
Sabrina Fletcher
00:43:34 – 00:43:34
Mmm
Victoria Volk
00:43:34 – 00:43:42
You know, it’s one of those things we all learn to do. Right? We learn how to acquire things and people, not what to do when we lose them. You know?
Sabrina Fletcher
00:43:42 – 00:43:45
Oh, that’s a really good quote, Victoria.
Victoria Volk
00:43:45 – 00:43:50
It is. It is. There was something on you I was gonna ask you.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:43:50 – 00:43:51
Sure.
Victoria Volk
00:43:51 – 00:43:56
What advice to other grievers desiring to create meaning from their grief?
Victoria Volk
00:43:56 – 00:44:12
And, you know, when I say create meaning that can that kind of rubs some people the wrong way. Like you have to create meaning, you have to do something big, but you don’t. It it’s I think it, I think a part of creating meaning or finding meaning, not that everything happens for a reason. Like, sometimes
Sabrina Fletcher
00:44:12 – 00:44:12
Yeah
Victoria Volk
00:44:13 – 00:44:17
that can ruffle people’s feathers too. Rightfully so.
Victoria Volk
00:44:17 – 00:44:42
Acceptance is a huge part of creating meaning. Personally, I think that you know, once you get to that place of acceptance of like, you can’t change the past, right? You can’t, but you can, you have a choice in how you transmute the emotions and the feelings that you experienced and move forward. And you’ve done that in a very beautiful way and enough service to others. And not everybody has to, you know, take on something like that.
Victoria Volk
00:44:42 – 00:44:42
Right.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:44:42 – 00:44:43
Mmm.
Victoria Volk
00:44:43 – 00:44:45
And not everybody is capable of that.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:44:45 – 00:44:45
Mmm.
Victoria Volk
00:44:46 – 00:44:59
Like, you know, it’s a it’s not a burden. And that’s the thing I think where people shy away from seeking help to is they don’t want to be a burden to other people. And that’s a lot of what keeps people isolated in their grief.
Victoria Volk
00:44:59 – 00:45:13
But I’ll get to the question here. But what advice would you give to others who desire to do something like you have done? And maybe a different way, but just do something with their grief.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:45:14 – 00:45:32
Mmm. Yeah. I like to talk about not thinking of it as, like, look for the what do we call it in the cloud? The silver lining. You know, we’re not looking for you know, there’s no silver lining in my baby dying in such a horrendous taboo way. There’s no silver lining there.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:45:33 – 00:46:21
There just isn’t. And I like to think of well, I have this little mini framework that I share with my clients and that I need to share with my community on a whole. It’s like this cycle of holding and honoring our emotions. And I think this can help people get to this place where they’re even doing tiny things that can help. And it may help them, you know, create meaning, find meaning, or it may help them, you know, just that day feel a little bit closer or feel more connected to their baby or even feel more connected to themselves or feel just a little bit more calm in the storm of grief.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:46:22 – 00:46:28
There are 3 steps, but they go around and around. You know? Just like grief is a cycle. Right?
Victoria Volk
00:46:28 – 00:46:30
Just like you did a lot of meditation around the flower. Right?
Sabrina Fletcher
00:46:30 – 00:46:42
Yeah. Yeah. We just go around. We go around, and then we come back to the same place, but we have a little bit more knowledge this time, and we’re gonna go a little bit deeper. It might be even more like a spiral too.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:46:42 – 00:46:46
Although, you know, I don’t want you to spiral out. Not that sort of spiral.
Victoria Volk
00:46:46 – 00:46:47
In a good way.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:46:48 – 00:47:19
Yeah. Spiraling deeper into the meaning or the love or the connection. So I start with acknowledge, just acknowledging that you’re having this body sensation instead of pushing it away. And also being very very gentle with this stage because I would say, with early grief, it’s very intense. And early grief can be a year, 2 years for people.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:47:20 – 00:47:35
So we just take, you know, like, one little sensation like my heart. You know? It’s tight. Just noticing that sensation. And even trying to notice without putting any labels on it yet.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:47:36 – 00:47:55
Even without saying it’s my heart or it’s this sensation or it’s this name of the thing. We don’t even have to put a label on it. So just acknowledging that it’s there. And I stayed in this place for a really long time. All of those things that I was talking about, like, with my with my feet in the grass, it would just be like, I’m just feeling.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:47:56 – 00:48:26
I’m just feeling, and I’m just you know, it’s just like flowing down into the earth, or I’m I’m walking, and I’m just feeling all of these sensations. And, like, my brain can’t even put a label on it yet, and that’s fine. It’s okay to stay in this acknowledging place for as long as you need to. And then if you feel ready, you can move to the part of the cycle that I like to think of, as a sign. So then you can begin to assign it an emotion name.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:48:26 – 00:49:02
So like I said, like anger, you know, is feeling so angry at the world and life and you know, even mother nature for screwing up my, you know, somewhere in the genetics or the creation or the, you know, the way that she was forming or maybe, you know, there’s something wrong with my own uterus or whatever. I was just so angry at all of those things and just, like, feeling the anger. And it and it’s okay to label it, like anger. You know? I’m feeling the anger.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:49:02 – 00:49:22
I’m actually feeling this emotion. And then and then if that feels okay, if you’d like to move to the next part of the cycle, I think of this part as a, oh, so we went or assign. Now we’re at align. And you can align in different ways. This is gonna be unique.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:49:22 – 00:50:01
This is gonna be your own self-care that works for you, whatever you need in that moment or maybe the first tiny step for something bigger that you want to do. You know, a lot of people do advocacy in TFMR. Like, they want to write a letter to their representative and tell their story and say, you know, the laws really hurt me and my family and my baby in this way, and this is what I went through. So maybe when you get to a line, maybe it’s like, okay. I’m gonna take out a piece of paper, or I’m gonna open a blank document on my computer and give it a name, letter to my representative.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:50:02 – 00:50:31
That could be your align. So it’s doing something for the sensations and the emotions that you’re having, and then we’re gonna transform, transmute. I like to think of transmutation and transformation more than finding meaning because we’re taking these sensations and emotions, and then you can do something with them. Emotion, e motion, it’s movement. It’s it wants to move.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:50:31 – 00:51:03
It wants to move through you. It wants to move through and even out of you. But we were never taught how. I, at least, I was never taught how. I had to, you know, figure it out on my own through doing it and through, you know, being in a relationship with my husband and like, seeing my own daughter’s grief and then being in these grief communities and being in these TFMR communities and talking to other pregnancy loss parents and seeing the ways that they were aligning.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:51:03 – 00:51:22
You know? Sometimes I would only see that part of their cycle because that can’t be outward. It can’t be inward. So maybe I was seeing how they were, aligning in a way in their life. And then once we align a little bit, then maybe new sensations come about in the body.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:51:23 – 00:51:44
And so that’s why it’s a cycle. So then you can begin to acknowledge those sensations or those feelings as well. And you can go through the cycle as, you know, we’ll go through it an infinite amount of times in our lifetime if we’re lucky, if we get the time, if we get the chance to do it.
Victoria Volk
00:51:44 – 00:51:57
And the key thing you said there is connecting with ourselves and our emotions are in our body, because it is what you went through and what other women go through in this experience is very much a body experience.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:51:58 – 00:51:59
Yeah.
Victoria Volk
00:51:59 – 00:52:04
So it’s connecting back to the body to heal the body from within out.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:52:04 – 00:52:04
Mhmm.
Victoria Volk
00:51:59 – 00:52:28
I’m curious if because the work your husband does, if you utilize some of those things and have considered or maybe you’ve already done this where you’ve had brought in women who have experienced this into his place of where he works and to experience these tools that he has to help women connect with themselves in that way.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:52:28 – 00:52:31
Oh, it’s definitely going to be a part of the live retreats.
Victoria Volk
00:52:31 – 00:52:32
That’s for sure.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:52:32 – 00:52:41
For sure. For sure. And I’ve been thinking about well, since I set everything up virtually, I just continue to do everything virtually.
Victoria Volk
00:52:41 – 00:52:41
Right.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:52:41 – 00:53:19
I don’t have a local group yet, but, there is a midwife in town who would like me to run a group and I would definitely invite them, you know, after, you know, 6 weeks or after a few months of coming to these circles. Maybe we’ll do, you know, a quarterly sweat lodge experience. And my husband actually gets a lot of people who come to him, maybe not right after a loss, but in that time, you’ll understand the time period. About 3 or 4 months out or, like, a year out.
Victoria Volk
00:53:19 – 00:53:19
Mhmm. Yeah.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:53:20 – 00:53:39
With a big loss or life transitions, and then they go and they want to really mark that transition with a ritual, which is something that the sweat lodge can help you do or take partaking in a sweat.
Victoria Volk
00:53:41 – 00:53:51
Very cool. I think you’ve got a lot of amazing things brewing and I’m excited to see what, what comes of it for you.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:53:52 – 00:53:52
Yeah
Victoria Volk
00:53:52- 00:53:55
I am curious. Did you have any more children?
Sabrina Fletcher
00:53:55 – 00:53:55
Yes.
Victoria Volk
00:53:55- 00:53:56
Okay.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:53:56 – 00:54:23
I was able to get pregnant again after my loss. And I would say that pregnancy is really was the second hardest thing that I’ve done in my life after you know, going through the termination, after going through losing my baby.
Victoria Volk
00:54:23 – 00:54:36
That’s why I asked because, it’s like when people wanna replace a dog. Right? It’s like, how do you know you’re ready? And people often just don’t even think about that. They just replace the dog and you’re not replacing the loss by having another child. That’s not what I’m saying. Although people can have that perception.
Victoria Volk
00:54:36 – 00:54:42
Right? Like, you wanna feel better, so you just you can just have another child. Right?
Sabrina Fletcher
00:54:42 – 00:54:45
That’s what people say. Yeah. The people say that.
Victoria Volk
00:54:45 – 00:54:46
People say that. You can have more kids.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:54:47 – 00:54:48
Not everyone can.
Victoria Volk
00:54:49 – 00:54:50
Right? Exactly.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:54:50 – 00:54:52
Exactly. And then
Victoria Volk
00:54:52 – 00:54:55
so the when they say that, they’re making the assumption that, yes, you can too.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:54:56 – 00:54:56
Mhmm.
Victoria Volk
00:54:56 – 00:54:57
Can you speak to that a little bit?
Sabrina Fletcher
00:54:59 – 00:54:59
Mmm.
Victoria Volk
00:54:59 – 00:55:02
Like, howdid you know? Like or how did you come to that? And
Sabrina Fletcher
00:55:02 – 00:55:27
Well, I think of my the loss of my baby as the primary loss, the primary death.
Victoria Volk
00:55:12 – 00:55:12
Mhmm.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:55:13 – 00:55:27
There are also other things that were lost. So I lost this vision of having 2 children in my family. I lost this, you know, the hopes and desires to have my oldest daughter not be a only child.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:55:28 – 00:55:55
I wanted to have, you know, more than one kid. I wanted to have 2 or 3. I guess I do have 3 now in a way. But 2 living and then the one that died. And I knew that it was going to be hard, and the desire to have another child was stronger than the fear.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:55:56 – 00:56:27
That was when I knew that I was ready to really go back into battle. Most people who go through a termination for medical reasons do develop, like, full-blown PTSD. You know, it’s like going to war. And so if you think of it like we’re warriors who have been to this battle or war and lost. Now we’re being asked to go right back to the same battlefield.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:56:29 – 00:56:55
You know, it’s the same sensations. Maybe you pull out the same, you know, pregnancy pants. Maybe it’s even, like, the same season. Some people, you know, just the dates, like, all line-up and they’re going to their 12-week scan on March 12th again the next year. So they’re very crazy feelings that you that you go through.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:56:56 – 00:57:14
Because you’re going through it again. And then the anger too, you feel very I remember being very angry throughout the 1st trimester and thinking, you know, I feel so tired. I feel like crap. You know, I feel like I’m gonna throw up all the time. I already went through this.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:57:15 – 00:57:53
You know? Why do I have to go through this again? And of course, I was so thrilled to be pregnant again and to hopefully, you know, have a baby, have a have another sibling and to hopefully have those experiences that I was dreaming of you know, to have 2 kids or more than 2 kids and to have, like, a bigger family. I mean, it’s not a big family to have 2 kids, but, bigger than 1, bigger than just parenting 1. And I mean, I had EMDR therapist.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:57:53 – 00:58:23
I had my acupuncturist. I had different doctors. I had the high-risk doctor that I was going to. I had the same doula that I my postpartum doula then became my doula through that pregnancy. In the pregnancy loss spaces, I found, like, specific monthly threads or places where people were talking about being pregnant again after loss or even more specifically being pregnant again after TFMR.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:58:25 – 00:58:43
I had a really good friend who we would check-in every day. We were like, I don’t know. Our dates, like, lined up we were already in contact, and then we were both trying to conceive, and then we, like both got pregnant probably on, like, the same day. And so, you know, it’s like, here we are in week 1. Now we’re in week 2.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:58:43 – 00:58:59
We checked in every single day with each other, and it would just be in the morning, I’d be like, oh my gosh. I’m so scared. And I would open, you know, my Messenger app or whatever, and there’s her message saying the same thing. So I didn’t feel so alone.
Victoria Volk
00:58:59 – 00:58:59
Mhmm.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:59:01 – 00:59:03
That was how I got through that pregnancy.
Victoria Volk
00:59:04 – 00:59:06
With a lot of support, it sounds like.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:59:06 – 00:59:15
A lot. I needed a lot of support. I needed all of it, and I really pulled on all of it. And it was really hard on my husband too. You know?
Sabrina Fletcher
00:59:15 – 00:59:19
We were scared every single day that we would lose her too.
Victoria Volk
00:59:20 – 00:59:21
And what’s her name?
Sabrina Fletcher
00:59:21 – 00:59:23
Her name is Aya.
Victoria Volk
00:59:23 – 00:59:25
Oh, that’s beautiful.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:59:25 – 00:59:27
Thank you.
Victoria Volk
00:59:27 – 00:59:37
It’s like the, what you said, it’s holding on to the both and
Sabrina Fletcher
00:59:32 – 00:59:32
Uh-huh
Victoria Volk
00:59:32 – 00:59:37
it’s the feelings of fear and an excitement at the same time, enjoy,
Sabrina Fletcher
00:59:37 – 00:59:37
right
Victoria Volk
00:59:37 – 00:59:42
It’s the both and like, it’s like holding the feelings and the reality at the same time.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:59:43 – 00:59:43
Mmm.
Victoria Volk
00:59:43 – 00:59:53
And that’s a tricky thing to do. And so I thank you for sharing that aspect of your story, because I think it’ll be helpful for people who are going through that.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:59:53 – 01:00:03
Yeah. And I have a monthly thread in my Facebook group too, and I started a monthly live Zoom for us as well.
Victoria Volk
01:00:03 – 01:00:05
Awesome.
Sabrina Fletcher
01:00:05 – 01:00:19
Mhmm. Because I remember how hard it was. I mean, she’s 4 now, and still even around, even around her birthday I start thinking about you know, everything that we went through just to get to that point.
Victoria Volk
01:00:20 – 01:00:34
On your form, there’s a question I ask. I don’t know if you remember what you answered, but I wanna share it if you don’t remember. But it’s what would you like to scream to the world in the past or recently in which people knew about your grief?
Sabrina Fletcher
01:00:35 – 01:00:40
Did I write TFMR is pregnancy loss?
Victoria Volk
01:00:38 – 01:00:38
Yes
Sabrina Fletcher
01:00:38 – 01:00:40
TFMR is pregnancy yeah.
Victoria Volk
01:00:40 – 01:00:45
Yes. And then you added something else. You said treat me gently
Sabrina Fletcher
01:00:45 – 01:00:47
I don’t read it. Can you read it?
Victoria Volk
01:00:47 – 01:00:50
Yeah. Treat me gently as you would any grieving parent.
Sabrina Fletcher
01:00:52 – 01:00:55
That’s it. That’s the one.
Victoria Volk
01:00:56 – 01:01:10
I thought that was beautiful. And so I think it’s a great place to tie this episode up with a bow for people.
Sabrina Fletcher
01:01:06 – 01:01:06
Mmm.
Victoria Volk
01:01:07 – 01:01:10
Grief is grief, no matter the circumstance. And we all agree that 100%. So treat each other gently.
Sabrina Fletcher
01:01:11 – 01:01:11
Wonderful.
Victoria Volk
01:01:11 – 01:01:16
Thank you so much for sharing. Is there anything else you would like to share though that you didn’t get to?
Sabrina Fletcher
01:01:18 – 01:02:09
I think I shared what was on my heart today. And maybe one more thing, just if you’re going through this or if you’ve been through this and you’re and you’re just finding the acronym and you’re just finding these places or you’re still looking for support around this type of pregnancy loss, just know that it is out there. And I know it’s really hard, like the onus is on the grieving person to go out and find support in a time where you’re just so exhausted. And it’s so worth it. It’s so worth it to keep searching until you find the space and the people who can really support you because it will make all of the difference in the world.
Victoria Volk
01:02:10 – 01:02:14
And if you’re a helper, sometimes helpers need help too.
Sabrina Fletcher
01:02:14 – 01:02:15
Mhmm.
Victoria Volk
01:02:16 – 01:02:18
That’s what I’ve found even personally.
Sabrina Fletcher
01:02:19 – 01:02:27
Mmm. Oh, yeah. No. I have a lot of therapists, teachers, nurses in my community.
Victoria Volk
01:02:27 – 01:02:27
Mhmm.
Sabrina Fletcher
01:02:27 – 01:02:27
Mhmm.
Victoria Volk
01:02:28 – 01:02:52
Well, thank you so much for all that you shared today. And, I look forward to sharing this episode and I will put all the links to what you shared in the show notes for people to quickly and easily find support if they’re needing it. And thank you for listening today. And remember when you unleash your heart, you unleash your life. Much love.
Cancer Thriver, Childhood Grief, Grief Stories, Grieving Voices Guest, Mind/Body Wellness, Parent Loss, Pespective, Pet Loss |
SHOW NOTES SUMMARY:
In this heartfelt episode of Grieving Voices, I’m joined by the remarkable Kris Carr, a multiple New York Times bestselling author, wellness activist, and cancer thriver. Known as a force of nature and recognized as one of Oprah’s Super Soul 100 influential thought leaders, Kris shares insights from her latest book “I’m Not a Morning Person,” which delves into the raw emotions that surface when life falls apart unexpectedly.
Kris discusses navigating through loss and grief with humor and hope while providing readers with strategies to move forward. She opens up about her personal journey living with stage 4 cancer for over two decades and how it has shaped her approach to health advocacy.
The conversation touches on profound topics such as:
- The unexpected grief journey sparked by the death of her father.
- How old wounds resurfaced during this period.
- The importance of emotional literacy in healing.
- Tools she developed to manage anxiety related to ongoing cancer scans.
- Her transition from trying to cure herself to focusing on healing.
Listeners will learn how Kris transformed fear into proactive self-care measures that millions now embrace. She also emphasizes the power of naming our emotions as a step toward understanding them better.
Kris’s story isn’t just about survival; it’s an inspiring testament to thriving amid adversity by harnessing love, acceptance, and resilience. Join us for an episode that promises deep reflection and practical wisdom for anyone grappling with their own grieving process or supporting others through theirs.
RESOURCES:
CONNECT:
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If you are struggling with grief due to any of the 40+ losses, free resources are available HERE.
CONNECT WITH VICTORIA:
Navigating the Tumultuous Seas of Grief: Insights from Kris Carr
Grief is like an unpredictable storm; it can hit us with ferocity when we least expect it, leaving us to navigate through its tumultuous waves. In today’s blog post, we dive deep into the insights shared by Kris Carr – a beacon of hope and resilience in the face of life’s most challenging moments.
Kris Carr isn’t just another voice in the wellness community; she is a testament to living vibrantly even amid adversity. Her journey began with a stage 4 cancer diagnosis that would forever change her trajectory. But rather than allowing this diagnosis to dictate her life’s story, Kris turned it into an opportunity for profound self-discovery and healing.
Her latest literary offering, *I’m Not a Mourning Person: Braving Loss, Grief, and the Big Messy Emotions That Happen When Life Falls Apart*, isn’t just about coping mechanisms but also about embracing our vulnerabilities as sources of strength. It’s about finding humor amidst pain and discovering hope when all seems lost.
One crucial takeaway from Kris’ philosophy is understanding that **self-care is non-negotiable**. Whether facing illness or loss, prioritizing oneself isn’t selfish—it’s essential for survival and growth. This means acknowledging our emotions fully without judgment or suppression.
In particular, emotions like anxiety and fear often get a bad rap as being purely negative forces within us. However, as Kris illustrates through her own experiences dealing with these powerful feelings constructively can lead to personal empowerment instead of paralysis.
Moreover, anger—a frequently misunderstood emotion—can be constructive if we view it correctly. Anger signals something deeper at play beneath our surface reactions; injustice felt or pain endured demands attention so healing can occur.
Another poignant aspect discussed by Kris is how society has historically viewed grief—and especially women expressing grief—as unbecoming or taboo. Yet openly discussing such emotions paves the way toward wholeness and recovery—a message particularly resonant in times where mental health awareness is gaining much-needed recognition.
For those who find themselves in caregiver roles—often overlooked heroes—the reminder comes loud and clear: care must flow both ways for sustainability’s sake.
The act of writing itself serves dual purposes for someone like Kris —it becomes both cathartic release and personal reflection tool while simultaneously offering solace guidance others traversing similar paths.
Perhaps one most compelling points made during her interview was regarding language used around illnesses such cancer – traditionally framed battles waged against enemy within ourselves body seen battlefield casualties inevitable consequence warlike mindset approach disease aggression compassion holistic perspective needed here one treats their body ally need tender loving care opposed adversary conquered defeated at all costs
This shift viewpoint not only changes how individuals experience their illness but also affects societal perceptions surrounding diseases overall thus promoting more empathetic inclusive dialogue
Lastly let’s touch upon interesting tidbit revealed by herself – past involvement Budweiser Super Bowl commercials showcases versatility breadth career spanned beyond realms health activism authorship Indeed professional background advertising gives unique lens which view cultural phenomena such annual spectacle Super Bowl ads yet choice refrain watching year underscores commitment staying true authentic self regardless external expectations trends
As wrap up thoughts on enlightening conversation had between Grieving Voices host inspirational figurehead wellness movement encourage readers seek out additional resources provided kriscarr.com follow along Instagram @crazysexykris delve further into book available wherever books sold. Remember whether you’re bracing yourself against storms grief learning sail smoothly calmer waters wisdom gleaned voices experienced navigators invaluable compass guiding towards brighter horizons ahead.
Episode Transcription:
Victoria Volk
00:00:00 – 00:00:15
Hello. Hello. Thank you for tuning into Grieving Voices. Today, I’m excited to share my guests, Kris Carr, with you, my listeners. She is a multiple New York times bestselling author, wellness activist, and cancer thriver.
Victoria Volk
00:00:15 – 00:00:44
She’s been called a force of nature by o magazine and was named a new role model by the New York Times. Kris is also a member of Oprah’s Super Soul 100, a group of the most influential thought leaders today. Her latest book, I’m not a mourning person, braving loss, grief, and the big messy emotions that happen when life falls apart, shares what to expect when you’re not expecting your world to fall apart. It’s raw and inspiring, but has joy, humor, and hope too. This book gives readers tips and strategies to move forward and start living again.
Victoria Volk
00:00:44 – 00:01:04
Kris has helped millions of people take charge of their health and live like they mean it through her award winning books, blog, online courses, and membership communities. Thank you so much for being here and taking your time to share with my listeners. And I just gotta say, I loved the book. The movie we recommend.
Kris Carr
00:01:04 – 00:01:05
Sorry. You can’t really see it.
Victoria Volk
00:01:05 – 00:01:20
I loved it. I do have one question because I wanna make sure I ask this because I just I don’t remember reading the acknowledgments the first time., And so I just kind of peeked through now. What book on grief were you given by your friend, Jeanette?
Kris Carr
00:01:21 – 00:01:24
Oh, well, that’s Julia Samuel’s book.
Victoria Volk
00:01:25 – 00:01:26
Julia Samuel’s book. Okay.
Kris Carr
00:01:27 – 00:02:13
Yeah. And, one of her books, and that was my introduction to a world that I was resistant to enter. And then once I entered it, I realized, actually, this is the conversation that not only do I need for myself, but I wanna have with other people because it’s the most meaningful conversation that I could have. And I didn’t realize up until my most recent life kick just how grief was woven into, the nooks and crannies of my heart, my history, and how it was really something I was so afraid to touch, and yet it was holding me back.
Victoria Volk
00:02:13 – 00:03:00
In reading the book, I resonated with so many aspects of your story of re I, like, reconnected with parts of myself where, like, I was like, I could imagine myself back in time and feeling those similar emotions. And I have, like, a 1000000 and 1 questions, it feels like on my paper. But what you’re here to talk about though is the death of your father, which seems to have been the catalyst for you to explore grief in a way a deeper and more meaningful way than you ever had despite all of like, despite a stage 4 cancer diagnosis that you’ve been living with and all of that, like because there’s a lot of grief in that. And so to not really touch it until until recently. Yeah.
Victoria Volk
00:03:00 – 00:03:04
It’s a very timely book, I’m thinking, for you.
Kris Carr
00:03:05 – 00:03:16
Oh, definitely for me. And I you know, it wasn’t the book that I set out to write. It I’ve written 7 books. This is my 7th book. And you know, there comes a time when your publishers are like, Sue, we need to write another book.
Kris Carr
00:03:17 – 00:03:47
And it had been a minute, and there was this idea that I should write something that’s more mass market, more appealing. I’ve written books for cancer patients. I’ve written books about plant based living. Apparently, I like to tackle difficult topics, vegetables and disease. And so anyway, there was these conversations about me writing something for a wider audience, and I initially went to that.
Kris Carr
00:03:47 – 00:04:09
You know, what’s that self help, aspirational, inspirational book that I could write? Which at some point, I will probably write. But everything in my body and in my being and in my heart was like, I can’t write that book now. I don’t feel that way. I’m not inspired by that conversation.
Kris Carr
00:04:09 – 00:04:49
I am hurting. And so this was my father was diagnosed with cancer in 2016, and he lived for about four and a half years with stage 4 pancreatic cancer. And during that time, you know, obviously, it’s a big life change for the whole family. But I was approaching my milestone of living with my own stage 4 cancer for 20 years. My we were in the middle of a global pandemic, so each and every one of us was hurting in a whole new way and losing people left and right, losing our jobs, losing our former sense of selves, losing our sense of safety and security.
Kris Carr
00:04:49 – 00:05:37
And my business was struggling because I had taken the steps to pull back so that I could be more present with my family. And what I realized is I hadn’t life proofed my business to allow me to do that. And so I was going through a very difficult time. And my initial response, even though I’ve been doing been in the wellness world for 20 years, and so I’ve done a lot of my own personal work and I’ve coached a lot of people in 20 years. Even though I thought I had done this kind of deep healing work when it comes to our mental health and heart tending, it was a big blind spot for me because my go to is to hustle, is to solve, is to fix, is to get the job done.
Kris Carr
00:05:38 – 00:06:09
And I was in a time and place where there wasn’t a way to get the job done. Right? It was a much deeper, more spiritual, more impactful journey that I would have to go on. I couldn’t check a box or get something behind me, much like living with cancer. And so instead of trying to push the river or hold back the ocean because I was afraid it would devour me, I decided to go through it.
Kris Carr
00:06:09 – 00:06:37
You know? And I remember the moment I write about in the introduction when the dam broke when I was sitting in a parking lot at CVS and my mother had asked me to go get more insured because it was the only thing my dad could tolerate. And I am at the aisle not knowing how many to get because I don’t know how much time he has to live and I’m not consciously choosing those thoughts. But here they come. And it was that moment of pushing it down and working harder and all the things that I do to avoid pain where I couldn’t hold it back anymore.
Kris Carr
00:06:37 – 00:06:53
And I was running through the CVS to get back to my car so that nobody would see me cry. And I get in, I break down all of the emotions coming out. And afterwards, I feel this quiet in the storm. I start to feel a little bit better. I feel a break from the fever.
Kris Carr
00:06:54 – 00:07:13
And I think to myself, where are other areas of where are the other areas of my life that I am holding back the opportunity to feel better by just allowing myself to be with the emotion. And that truly was the turning point for me to say, oh, I have to look at this.
Victoria Volk
00:07:14 – 00:07:19
One of my mottos is allowing myself to feel is allowing myself to heal.
Kris Carr
00:07:19 – 00:07:20
Mhmm.
Victoria Volk
00:07:20 – 00:07:30
Pretty much embodies what you just shared. I think the importance of just allowing ourselves to feel what we have to feel, even if it’s to go into our car and have an ugly cry.
Kris Carr
00:07:31 – 00:07:44
You’re so right. And for many of us, we’ve never allowed ourselves to do that. Maybe we don’t even know what we’re feeling. We just know that there’s some sort of disturbance in the force. We’re feeling off.
Kris Carr
00:07:44 – 00:08:19
We’re feeling unsettled. And perhaps that’s old stuff. Like, when we were kids and we didn’t have the words to describe what pain we were experiencing, what discomfort we were experiencing, we may not also have those words as adults. And so it’s an incredible exploration process to even say, what if I just start by trying to identify and articulate what feeling is up for me right now? I don’t have to fix it.
Kris Carr
00:08:19 – 00:08:23
Maybe I could just give it a name and start it there.
Victoria Volk
00:08:23 – 00:08:34
On your Instagram, I saw you had a picture of yourself as a little girl, which prompted me to read the caption. Can you share a little bit about that for our listeners?
Kris Carr
00:08:36 – 00:08:38
About being a little girl?
Victoria Volk
00:08:38 – 00:08:38
Mhmm.
Victoria Volk
00:08:39 – 00:08:41
Having what you the exercise of taking your a picture of yourself
Kris Carr
00:08:42 – 00:08:42
Yeah
Victoria Volk
00:08:43 – 00:08:44
as a little as a child?
Kris Carr
00:08:44 – 00:09:17
You know, sometimes when we don’t know how to self-soothe, we weren’t given those tools. Many of us and our parents weren’t given those tools either. And certainly, we find ourselves in a time of mourning. Then if we don’t know what to give to ourself, I like to have that picture, and then it is the picture that I use up on my desk, or it’s, like, in my bathroom or it’s in my closet where I’m getting dressed. And to just check-in with her and ask her what she needs.
Kris Carr
00:09:17 – 00:09:40
And to allow her to say, what I really need is a little break. I actually need to play a little bit. I need to give myself more unstructured time, you know, because she’s still there. But all of the way that I put on masks or you know, I remember when my mantra was suck it up buttercup. Like, what a terrible mantra.
Kris Carr
00:09:41 – 00:09:51
Right? But it was one I followed. And if I’m willing to tend to her and say, I love you. I’m here for you. What do you need?
Kris Carr
00:09:51 – 00:10:04
I’ve got you. I can re-parent you. Then inevitably, I, adult Kris, start to experience the healing that comes from that.
Victoria Volk
00:10:04 – 00:10:31
Because in your book, you share how being a child of anxious parents. And because you mentioned it just briefly there a little bit, how that shaped you into adult life being a child of anxious parents. Because I have this theory that and reading your book, I’m like, okay. Well, that makes sense. Because I have the theory that a lot of children are carrying anxiety and fears that aren’t even theirs.
Kris Carr
00:10:34 – 00:10:34
Yeah.
Victoria Volk
00:10:34 – 00:10:37
That of their parents. And then I read that in your book and I’m like, okay. That’s kind of affirming.
Kris Carr
00:10:39 – 00:10:52
Yeah. I mean, we are these blank slates, and we pick up vibes. We pick up energy. We pick up behaviors. I think we come here, and we are then domesticated.
Kris Carr
00:10:53 – 00:11:28
And so much of what our job is in this lifetime is to unlearn and to come back to the original source, which is that self-love, love for self, love for others, love for life. And so naturally, if we’re raised by parents who are anxious, then anxiety is gonna maybe even go be one of our go to responses to things. So we’re kind of moving through life fearful. And anxiety really is a rumination about what may or may not happen. Right?
Kris Carr
00:11:28 – 00:11:42
It’s kind of taking fear and saying, I’m thinking ahead. I gotta cover my bases. I gotta have my own back. The world is unsafe. How can I get ahead of this situation so I can make sure I stay safe?
Kris Carr
00:11:43 – 00:12:14
And fear and anxiety serve a purpose. Right? I would say in the book and often try to remind myself that we can’t amputate any of our emotions and expect to be whole. So oftentimes, I think in our very black-and-white society, certain emotions we deem positive and emotions that we should strive to have and show, and other emotions we deem negative as if therefore, there’s something deficient about us for having them. And it’s sort of like saying, here are all the crayons in the crayon box.
Kris Carr
00:12:15 – 00:12:45
But, Victoria, you can only use blue, green, and red because all the other colors are bad. And if you use those colors, you’re bad. And you may be like, but secretly, I love yellow. You know? And so I think when we get a little curious about these emotions and what they’re here to teach us and show us, which we can talk about, then we can follow the breadcrumbs and understand how they work and why our brain uses them.
Kris Carr
00:12:45 – 00:13:00
Why did why are we designed to experience anxiety from time to time? How is it a benefit to us? How does it truly keep us safe? And how does it go awry? Right?
Kris Carr
00:13:00 – 00:13:18
What do I need to do when I’m finding myself spinning out, let’s say, before a CAT scan? I get checked every 5 years. There’s always gonna be some anxiety before I go in for my scan. This is the moment, 21 years later, when my doctor says, oh, it turned on. It’s finally aggressive.
Kris Carr
00:13:18 – 00:13:43
This is what we’ve been waiting for. And I’m I’m gonna have some anxiety, but I can develop some tools to soothe that anxiety. I can develop some tools to make sure that that anxiety doesn’t become a rumination that’s out of control that can even become almost like an addiction, like a hot spot that I’ll just go to. It’s almost like we’re going to the mental gym when we’re dealing with some of this stuff.
Victoria Volk
00:13:44 – 00:14:19
Those that may not be familiar with you and never heard of you, can you just briefly share? Because I know we’ve mentioned it, but we haven’t really said about your diagnosis. And then I’d like to move into how that anxiety and that fear played a role through your diagnosis and how that transitioned to when you became then a caregiver for your father. And then the moment that you realized, you know, the P there’s like 3, I have a note here. There’s 3 spiritual or 3 pivotal moments that led you to writing the book.
Victoria Volk
00:14:19 – 00:14:23
And so can we rewind and then fast forward a little bit?
Kris Carr
00:14:24 – 00:14:47
Yes. So, I was in a very different career and had very different hopes and thoughts and dreams for my life. And then on Valentine’s Day in 2003, I was diagnosed with a rare and incurable stage 4 cancer. And so the first doctor that I met with suggested a triple organ transplant. The next doctor gave me 10 years to live.
Kris Carr
00:14:47 – 00:15:30
The doctor after that suggested radical treatments that wouldn’t do anything. And it was that moment where I realized I had to become my own advocate, and I had to become, as I like to call, the CEO of my health. So as a CEO, the leader of our lives, it’s like, okay. I’m responsible for putting together the team, for hiring, for firing, for finding my second in command because the doctors work for me. And I was lucky, or actually just hardworking to find a great oncologist who knew the most about my very rare disease, who had his finger on the pulse of research, and who also had a wonderful bedside manner.
Kris Carr
00:15:30 – 00:15:46
So I was very surprised when he said, sometimes your disease can be slow growing. It can become aggressive. We just don’t know. We have to watch and wait. And while we’re doing that, we want you to watch and live.
Kris Carr
00:15:46 – 00:16:34
And I didn’t really know how to do that. So the first place I went afterwards was the grocery store because I figured vegetables were good, even though I hated them. And what I was truly looking for was some sort of control, some place to put my energy so that I could feel like I was participating in my well-being as opposed to participating in my disease. And that’s what started the work that I do first and foremost for cancer patients when I began and then later for people who are interested in not becoming patients, because I truly believe that self-care is health care and that we have more power than we think. And, again, it was this career is not something that I went into saying this is what I wanna do.
Kris Carr
00:16:34 – 00:17:05
But I think for many of us, our lives change in sometimes miraculous ways because of these warning signs or wake up calls that we have. And this is what I chose to do with my wake up call because, again, I live with stage 4 cancer. This is a marathon for me. And I’m very, very inspired to live every moment like it is my first, and I can’t wait to have another. And so where are we going after this?
Kris Carr
00:17:06 – 00:17:10
Where would you like me to take you after this? You had a 3 part question.
Victoria Volk
00:17:10 – 00:17:12
I did. I know. I’m I tend to do that.
Kris Carr
00:17:12 – 00:17:14
It’s okay.
Victoria Volk
00:17:15 – 00:17:26
Try to squeeze it all in. Just the anxiety of that.
Kris Carr
00:17:19 – 00:17:19
Yeah.
Victoria Volk
00:17:19 – 00:17:26
Diagnosis and the experience of going through that and then being hit with another rupture, as you call it in your book, of your father?
Kris Carr
00:17:27 – 00:17:53
So for me, like I said earlier, I am the person that’s going to pretty much try to put a plan in place. And I think it’s very helpful to do that. It’s one of the reasons why my work has helped a lot of people is because I help people and people who don’t wanna be patients just put that wellness plan together. But a lot of that came from my fear, and a lot of that came from my anxiety. So isn’t that wonderful, though?
Kris Carr
00:17:53 – 00:18:39
So fear and anxiety helped me out in a big way. The problem is when they take over and they shut you down, they paralyze you. They make it so that the only thing that you feel like you can do to cope is to numb because they’re just too big. And so that’s when all of our self-care principles and practices, the toolkits that many of us go through life trying to build, we wanna open the box and lean on a few of them, whether it’s through breath work, whether it’s with a therapist or a counselor, like, hey, these emotions are too big for me to hold on my own. Oftentimes there may be other things tied into them, past traumas, past grieves.
Kris Carr
00:18:40 – 00:18:59
One of the things that my therapist talked about and I wrote about in the book is she says, when the grief train pulls into the station, it brings all the carbs.
Victoria Volk
00:18:49 – 00:18:49
Mmm
Kris Carr
00:18:49 – 00:18:59
The stuff you thought you were over is behind you, and you’re just totally sideswiped. Brings up trauma. It brings up anxiety. It brings up shame.
Kris Carr
00:18:59 – 00:19:10
It brings up rage. For me, I went through a period where, you know, my number one emotion I was experiencing was not grief. It was rage. I’m like, where is all this hot energy coming from? Well, it’s old stuff.
Kris Carr
00:19:12 – 00:19:37
And so learning to live with stage 4 cancer for me is more of a mental game than physical game. It’s about learning how to work with my fear and anxiety as opposed to be overwhelmed by it because that those moments are going to come. I was talking to a patient the other day, and you know, I’ll go to, okay. I’m having this anxious moment. Let me get in my body.
Kris Carr
00:19:37 – 00:19:51
Because sometimes when I’m in a anxious spiraling out place, I’m having kind of an out of body experience. Right? So I could jump on my bike or jump in the water. You know what I mean? Like, right now, I’m in Florida.
Kris Carr
00:19:51 – 00:20:03
The ocean’s nearby. Like, why don’t you just go for a quick swim? And it’s gonna change the channel. It’s almost like we’re dogs with in brain rot, licking, licking, licking a hot spot. You know?
Kris Carr
00:20:03 – 00:20:13
What if the scan’s worse? And what if this and what if that? Well, in this moment, none of that is true. I like to say it’s not something until it’s something. So why don’t you get back to living?
Kris Carr
00:20:13 – 00:20:28
Or it’s been 21 years since I’ve been dealing with this. I know I’m gonna feel anxious. I’m gonna allow myself that day or the day before to go there. But before then, why am I wasting time? Now is it as easy as that?
Kris Carr
00:20:28 – 00:20:33
No. But for me, I’ve been able to work with my brain.
Victoria Volk
00:20:35 – 00:20:36
You’ve had a lot of time to practice.
Kris Carr
00:20:37 – 00:20:43
I’ve had a lot of time to practice. I’m like, come on. Let’s go for a bike ride. In this moment, how are you feeling? Pretty good.
Kris Carr
00:20:43 – 00:20:44
Let’s focus there.
Victoria Volk
00:20:45 – 00:21:07
So when there was kind of training ground for you, when this happened with your father, I imagine that you had to lean on a lot of those tools that have supported you in getting through your own diagnosis and the spiraling thoughts and all of that. And what did you learn about yourself through the process. And how did that change you?
Kris Carr
00:21:07 – 00:21:08
Thought
Victoria Volk
00:21:08 – 00:21:09
Your perspective, maybe of a lot of things.
Kris Carr
00:21:09 – 00:21:38
Very beautiful question. I mean, I think I’m still learning it. And, I think that it was all well and good for me to work with my own palate, which is me. But then when it come came to working with, you know, the potential of losing someone that I love very dearly, he’s my chosen father, so he adopted me. And that was really hard for me because what was coming up, what I didn’t realize was a lot of the old abandonment wounds.
Kris Carr
00:21:38 – 00:22:06
The core, you know, father wound was highly activated, the idea of losing him. Because whether I was conscious of it or not, what I was feeling was that he was leaving me. And that’s what happened the first time with my biological father. And that’s when you go, oh, I have an opportunity here to work with some really old stuff because he’s not leaving me. He’s dying.
Kris Carr
00:22:07 – 00:22:28
And I want to spend as much good time with him as I can. So because of that, it was inspiring to do the work and to go back into therapy. And and to initially, I was like, oh, no. Cancer’s not on my watch. You know, there’s one thing I know.
Kris Carr
00:22:28 – 00:22:55
It’s navigating cancer, and it’s not taking you. I got pissed and angry and called everybody I knew, and I got some wonderful people in my address book. The problem was is that he didn’t wanna do any of it. So the treatments that he was undergoing were really hard. So we could do enough to, you know, keep him as well as possible, but he wasn’t gonna do a full on lifestyle, save my ass technologies Kris Carr plan.
Kris Carr
00:22:55 – 00:23:38
And so I had to make peace with that and say, the best medicine that I can deploy right now is love and making sure that when I enter the room, love is leading the way and that the time that I have with him is filled with it. And so there’s a lot of gin rummy. There’s a lot of really wonderful times that we had. And I learned how to let go of more control, which was very anxiety provoking for me. And just to continue to show up with love even though my heart was breaking and breaking wide open too.
Victoria Volk
00:23:39 – 00:23:48
In this book, you really do speak the language of the work that I do in grief recovery, the grief recovery method. And you talk about how grief manifests in our lives and in our bodies and talk about keeping busy.
Victoria Volk
00:23:48 – 00:24:37
You essentially addressed the sense of grief and you essentially addressed them all like including stirbs or short-term energy relieving behaviors and these things that we do to occupy ourselves and distract ourselves from our feelings. And, and you’ve had so many years of sitting with and working through your grief before writing this book. Who were the people or the resources that have supported you and provided the information that gave you that new perspective. And I know you mentioned that book, on grief, but kind of even before that earlier in your, like, when you were diagnosed and as you were going through that journey, what were the things that helped you shift your perspective from, you know, woe is me to the self-driven mission?
Victoria Volk
00:24:37 – 00:24:43
Or was it just did perfectionism take over? Because I know you talk a lot about perfectionism in your book too a little bit.
Kris Carr
00:24:43 – 00:25:01
I don’t know. Maybe sometimes. Oh, maybe sometimes. But I think so I practice what I call the 5 pillars of wellness. So they are basically being mindful of optimizing what you’re eating, drinking, thinking, and how you’re resting and renewing.
Kris Carr
00:25:02 – 00:25:32
And all of that sits on a foundation of stress management because we know that stress is really the number one killer. And stress comes in all sorts of ways, including heartache. And so that’s the basis of the lifestyle practice that I teach in my books and in my community. And that all came from all of my research as a first and foremost, as a cancer patient, what can I do to extend my life? Is there any way I can participate and help my longevity, help my odds?
Kris Carr
00:25:33 – 00:25:59
And it’s really the basis of lifestyle medicine, which has been around for a very long time. You know? And so all of that work for 20 years now has certainly taught me a lot about myself and my body. The big turning point for me, I think, emotionally was on my 10 year cancer versary when, you know, one of the doctors had originally given me 10 years to live. And here I am making it to the 10 year mark.
Kris Carr
00:26:01 – 00:26:21
And everybody was so thrilled except for me because I didn’t think that unless it was behind me, I could really live my life. So I was very frustrated, very angry. And so I was trying to cure myself since the doctors couldn’t cure me. You know? And it wasn’t happening.
Kris Carr
00:26:22 – 00:26:54
But I also wasn’t my disease wasn’t progressing either. And so it was just something that I was having to learn to live with. And there are many things for everybody that we might not want, but we have to learn to live with. And for me, it’s cancer. And so I remember thinking in that moment when everybody’s celebrating but me that I have to come up with a better way because I could live my whole life with this disease and I could waste it all.
Kris Carr
00:26:55 – 00:27:10
Because I wasn’t truly living unless it was behind me on paper. I got that stamp of approval. You’re in remission. And what if I lived? A whole lot of years healthy and happy, you know, if I allowed myself to be.
Kris Carr
00:27:11 – 00:27:25
But I didn’t get that stamp of approval. And that’s when I started to think about the difference between healing and curing. And that curing may or may not happen. You know, it happens in the physical body. It happens for some of us.
Kris Carr
00:27:25 – 00:27:49
Doesn’t happen for all of us. There are a lot of people out there who are living really big, abundant, wonderful lives with chronic illnesses, chronic shit pickles, just chronic stuff. And that’s okay. But healing can happen for each and every one of us. There is no timeline, and it can happen even beyond our physical form.
Kris Carr
00:27:49 – 00:28:09
And so I started to move more in the direction of aspiring to be on a healing path and to be loving and patient and caring with myself. And that, to me, when you say, okay. Where’d you learn this? What are the most inspirational resources or what not? It was actually that mental shift that changed everything.
Kris Carr
00:28:10 – 00:28:30
There are incredible grief resources out there. Right? You’re one of those incredible resources. And it was a world I wasn’t very familiar with. And then when we get interested, when we get curious, when we start to, you know, do the research, buy the books, follow the breadcrumbs, we start to find the voices that resonate for us.
Kris Carr
00:28:31 – 00:28:54
But the principles are still universal. You know, and that is that or at least I believe they’re universal, that our emotions are energy, we can’t amputate them, we need to allow them to flow. When energy is stagnant, it’s not good for your physical body. It’s not good for your mental health. And emotions are also filled with information.
Kris Carr
00:28:54 – 00:29:10
So if we can become a little bit more emotionally literate and curious, then we can start to learn how to tend to these crayons, these parts of ourselves that make up the whole beautiful picture that is us.
Victoria Volk
00:29:12 – 00:29:30
I’d love to talk about anger a little bit. You talked about a lot about emotions, but and you mentioned anger, and you mentioned anger quite a bit in your book too. And I didn’t address my grief until 2019. And that was at that point over 30 years. So I had a lot of time to build up a lot of anger and resentment.
Victoria Volk
00:29:31 – 00:30:12
And so to allow those floodgates to open, it was like, you know, if we imagine ourselves like a tea kettle and this pressure just keeps building and building and building, and if we don’t release that pressure, it like, we literally are dying from the inside very, you know, slowly and just deteriorates our bodies. And like you said, it’s stress. It’s physical stress, emotional stress, mental stress. Imagine that as is your body like a tea kettle. So allowing that rupture in that way, a good rupture, that’s a good rupture, you know, but you have, there’s a part I wrote here and we act out instead of crying out because anger feels powerful while grief feels powerless.
Victoria Volk
00:30:14 – 00:30:25
And you talk about caring for your anger and your grandmother had a motto, don’t cure the darkness, light a candle.
Kris Carr
00:30:25 – 00:30:25
Mmm
Victoria Volk
00:30:26 – 00:30:34
And I absolutely love that. But in talking about anger and the wisdom that anger has for us, what has anger taught you?
Kris Carr
00:30:36 – 00:31:13
My anger is very powerful, and my anger helps me to be a fighter when I need to fight. And it has protected me. It has inspired me. There have been so many moments, even as a female entrepreneur, when somebody has told me, you know, pipe down, ambition is not appropriate for women, Be satisfied with what you’re getting, even though I know other people are being paid more for the same work, where I relied on the wisdom of anger to say no. Right?
Kris Carr
00:31:13 – 00:31:41
And so I don’t want to vilify it. And yet, I definitely need to learn more about it because it’ll be a go to emotion for me if I’m not careful, thoughtful, inquisitive. My grandmother also used to say that emotions like anger and grief specifically were unbecoming for women. And she came from a very different time. Right?
Kris Carr
00:31:41 – 00:32:14
And so the chapter on anger is called Becoming, Unbecoming. And when I started to explore it more, and I have in my own therapy for many years, but actually starting to explore the mechanics of anger, almost like, you know, you’re approaching a research project, is that many people say that it’s a signaling emotion. Right? And it’s signaling to something else. It’s like the tip of the iceberg is what you see, but underneath of the iceberg is so much bigger.
Kris Carr
00:32:15 – 00:32:30
And so what is it signaling? What is it trying to point out to us? Sometimes it can be injustice. Sometimes it can be extreme pain. Like anger is saying, oh, this is not okay.
Kris Carr
00:32:31 – 00:33:10
And anger is also very protective. And so for me, if grief was something that felt so scary and so destabilizing. You know, there’s a reason why we go into fights, light, or freeze because it’s like a physical manifestation of us protecting ourselves. If an emotion like grief feels so unstabilizing to many of us because, again, we don’t necessarily have the tools for this, especially because we live in a grief-phobic society. Right.
Kris Carr
00:33:10 – 00:33:29
So few of us know how to talk about these things or want to talk about these things because we’re afraid of how people will react. Then an emotion like anger is going can easily step in and help you out. You know, like, oh, I’m starting to feel these emotions. I’m starting to feel out of control. I start to feel so uncomfortable.
Kris Carr
00:33:30 – 00:33:42
And then all of the stuff that can bubble up as a result of that, people will judge me. People won’t like me. People won’t wanna hang out with me because I’m a big downer. Boom. I got you, buttercup.
Victoria Volk
00:33:44 – 00:34:05
There was one part too where you where you talk about making yourself small. I can’t remember exactly how, how it went, but just to the, what you were just saying, how we make ourselves small, especially when we’re trying to express anger and then we’re told you’re too much or you’re too loud or, you know, be seen and not heard and all of these messages that we receive more commonly as little girls. Right?
Kris Carr
00:34:06 – 00:34:06
Yeah.
Victoria Volk
00:34:07 – 00:34:25
Do you see yourself as I mean, would you describe yourself as a child and like a free spirit, kind of wild, kind of like a poking the bear questioner, initiator of things, maybe initiator of other people? Do you just would you describe yourself like that?
Kris Carr
00:34:26 – 00:34:58
I think as a child, there was definitely a free spirit and a very creative little soul, and very imaginative, very caring. Somebody who’s I hopefully still have those traits. Very connected to animals in nature. And I don’t think I was a bear poker because I think I was very shy and very kind of like, I gotta figure out feel my way because the world isn’t safe. It wasn’t until much later in life that I became a bear poker.
Victoria Volk
00:34:59 – 00:35:17
Yes. Okay. That’s what I was gonna get to because when you start coming into your own. Right? Because you had a lot of grief in your childhood. So I just I saw myself in your story, and that’s why I asked that because, yeah, I just I felt like we’re kindred spirits in a way.
Kris Carr
00:35:17 – 00:35:41
Yeah. Oh, well, that’s wonderful. I mean, I think the more we don’t know if you feel this way, but the more work that I’ve done to heal my heart and befriend myself and really, like who I am. And I think one of the greatest things that you can ever experience in this life is the joy of your own company.
Victoria Volk
00:35:39 – 00:35:39
Mhmm.
Kris Carr
00:35:39 – 00:35:41
And I really wanna park on that for a minute because people don’t talk about it enough.
Kris Carr
00:35:42 – 00:35:53
I mean, getting to a point where you enjoy your own company is so big. We come here alone. We leave her alone. And we live in an epidemic of loneliness. We do need each other.
Kris Carr
00:35:53 – 00:36:00
We need community. We need support. We need our people and our true blues. But, damn, we need ourselves.
Victoria Volk
00:36:00 – 00:36:04
I think it goes back to what you said about self-soothing,
Kris Carr
00:36:03 – 00:36:03
Yeah
Victoria Volk
00:36:03 – 00:36:04
our ability to do that.
Kris Carr
00:36:05 – 00:36:30
I don’t think any of that matters unless we can do that, because all of it was temporary. You’re always gonna reach outside of yourself.
Victoria Volk
00:36:11 – 00:36:11
Mhmm.
Kris Carr
00:36:11 – 00:36:30
And then when a relationship ends, it’s gonna be so destabilizing. Because you never had that relationship connection with yourself first and foremost. And so to go back to your question, when did it when did I start to come into my own?
Kris Carr
00:36:30 – 00:36:49
It was more so when I said, I don’t really care what other people think about me. I don’t wanna be a jerk. And but I’m less interested in what other people think about me and more interested in that relationship and what I think about me and my ability to enjoy my own company.
Victoria Volk
00:36:49 – 00:36:56
I actually I’m glad you said that because I actually had, are you someone who enjoys alone time?
Kris Carr
00:36:56 – 00:36:57
Why?
Victoria Volk
00:36:57 – 00:37:18
Maybe you even need it, because that was actually one thing I wrote on there because I love my alone time. I need it. I love my own company. But this is a great segue into having more 4 legged friends than 2 legged friends.
Kris Carr
00:37:19 -00:37:19
Mmm..
Victoria Volk
00:37:19 – 00:37:22
And the fact that you, don’t have children, but you had you know, buddy or dog, you talk about losing buddy your dog.
Victoria Volk
00:37:22 – 00:37:33
And I just kinda wanna talk about if you are open to sharing about the importance of the importance that animals played a role in your healing and as you were grieving.
Kris Carr
00:37:34 – 00:37:54
Yeah, they always will. They’re so a big a big part of my life. And I’ve had a lot of fur children. And you’ve you know this because you are in this world. And so I remember the first time that I got the concept that the other side of grief is love.
Victoria Volk
00:37:54 – 00:37:54
Mmm
Kris Carr
00:37:55 – 00:38:23
And the more that we love, the more we’re gonna grieve. But who wants to go through life saying, oh, no love for me because I don’t wanna feel that pain? So taking on all these incredible companion animals, you know that at some point, you’re gonna have to say goodbye to them. And several of my fur children were very instrumental at certain points in my healing. My first my cat.
Kris Carr
00:38:23 – 00:38:33
My dedicated my second book to my cat. My cat was the first person I told I had cancer, Kristal, I’ve got cancer. What are we gonna do? Right?
Kris Carr
00:38:33 – 00:39:00
And so she was a big part of that early journey. And then Buddy was a big part of making peace with not having children. And then here comes this big old hound dog who is, you know, near death, emaciated, we found on the side of a mountain while we were hiking and nursing him back to health. And thinking, wow, there’s love all around if I just choose to open to it. It might not be in the form that I think.
Kris Carr
00:39:01 – 00:39:21
And it’s in this case, it’s a big old hound dog. But boy, do I love him. And life is still good. And, then most recently, my dog, Lola, who is probably my number one soulmate. And so she was there throughout my dad’s journey and she passed after.
Kris Carr
00:39:21 – 00:39:45
And I think she stuck around because she knew that it would be so big for me. And I couldn’t lose them both at the same time. So we have all these opportunities. And the reason why I write about pet loss in the book is because I was actually shocked by a lot of the grief books and grief literature that didn’t either include it or dealt it dealt with pet loss in a way that felt very diminishing?
Victoria Volk
00:39:46 – 00:39:58
I actually just developed a pet loss program.
Kris Carr
00:39:50 – 00:39:50
Oh.
Victoria Volk
00:39:51 – 00:39:58
But it hasn’t launched yet. And, because I’ve had clients that I’ve worked with where they were seeing, it was a single woman. She didn’t have children.
Victoria Volk
00:39:58 – 00:40:17
She didn’t have a spouse. Her family were in another country. Like she came here with knowing nobody and that her dog was her everything. And so people don’t understand or even think about grief when it comes to pets. But it’s like, we can just go out and get another pet and the things people say.
Victoria Volk
00:40:17 – 00:40:29
Right? And it just yeah. It’s so this is why I started this podcast so people can learn. Right? So people can learn through people’s stories of the import of all the different ways we grieve.
Victoria Volk
00:40:29 – 00:40:39
But even if you’re listening to this and you, for whatever reason, can’t have a pet, get a plant.
Kris Carr
00:40:40 – 00:40:40
Mhmm.
Victoria Volk
00:40:41 – 00:40:44
I see a plant in your background. I have one right on my shelf here. I started actually, that was one of the things I think naturally came up for me.
Victoria Volk
00:40:44 – 00:40:52
And as I was starting my healing was I just started accumulating plants left and right. Like, you know, it’s nurturing something.
Kris Carr
00:40:52 – 00:40:53
Uh-huh.
Victoria Volk
00:40:53 – 00:40:55
You know, I think get a plant.
Kris Carr
00:40:55 – 00:40:55
Yeah.
Victoria Volk
00:40:56 – 00:41:00
Think of yourself as a plant. Like, what does a plant need? It needs water.
Victoria Volk
00:41:00 – 00:41:13
It needs sunlight. It needs I think it goes back to what is that, doctor Emoto with the water and the rice, the rice experiment where you talk to it. And, I mean, you could talk to your plants. You talk to your pets. Right?
Kris Carr
00:41:13 – 00:41:14
Oh, yeah.
Victoria Volk
00:41:14 – 00:41:41
But none of those things, like, judge, analyze, or criticize you. So you can say whatever you want. And I think that’s the different dynamic of that relationship is that and why the bond is so deep for so many people with their pets is that they feel like you said in your book, it’s like it’s like Christmas morning. Every morning, every day that you your dog sees you, it’s like you could be gone 3 minutes. Like, I can leave and be gone for 3 minutes.
Victoria Volk
00:41:41 – 00:41:51
And my dog, it’s like Christmas morning. I was perfectly how you said that. So, yeah, it’s I think it’s one of the most minimized losses, and so it is something that I’m looking to address. And
Kris Carr
00:41:51 – 00:41:53
I’m so happy to hear that.
Speaker 1
00:41:53 – 00:42:00
So I’m glad we talked about that. Let me look on time. Okay. So I’m just gonna can I just do, like, a quick run through of questions?
Kris Carr
00:42:00 – 00:42:02
Oh, yeah. Of course.
Victoria Volk
00:42:03 – 00:42:11
Okay. Maybe these aren’t gonna be quick answers. I don’t know. Let’s see. I loved how you said life is a terminal condition. We’re all going to die.
Victoria Volk
00:42:12 – 00:42:24
But how many of us truly live? And acceptance helps get you there. And I think you’ve really touched on that quite a bit, not as much of the acceptance piece, but I guess I’ll ask you this. What does acceptance mean to you?
Kris Carr
00:42:25 – 00:42:48
Acceptance for me means that I accept who I am and what my needs are, and then I have my back. I’m not trying to be somebody I’m not. I’m not putting myself into a box that was not made for me. And, that’s a piece of it, but also accepting when I’m going through a difficult time that this is what’s happening. I’m not sugarcoating it.
Kris Carr
00:42:48 – 00:43:08
I’m not trying to slap on an affirmation, even though I think affirmations are very helpful. I’m accepting that this is where I am so that I can do the healing work. That perhaps some of that healing work will help me get to another place. But if not, I’m giving myself which exactly what I need, which is some heart tending.
Victoria Volk
00:43:09 – 00:43:14
And even if just for that moment, you feel better, I mean,
Kris Carr
00:43:12 – 00:43:12
Yeah
Victoria Volk
00:43:12 – 00:43:14
that’s a win.
Kris Carr
00:43:14 – 00:43:15
It’s huge win.
Victoria Volk
00:43:16 – 00:43:49
As your dad was going through his cancer treatment, I’m just curious on this because I just I spoke with another end of I’m trained in the end of life doula. And I spoke to another gentleman just recently. And the big conversation was having your affairs in order and just preparing and all of that. And so I imagine, like, when you got your diagnosis and when your father received his, was that something that had you already is that something that you’d, like, made a mission to take care of, like, get your affairs in order? Is that something that your dad made a priority when you first diagnosed?
Kris Carr
00:43:50 – 00:44:14
When I was first diagnosed, I didn’t wanna get my affairs in order. And I had there was a lot of frustration around my unwillingness to get my affairs in order. And it’s one of the reasons why my biological father left my life again.
Victoria Volk
00:44:09 – 00:44:09
Mmm
Kris Carr
00:44:10 – 00:44:14
So I met him when I was 18, and he split again when I was not long after I was diagnosed. And so and I was partly around that.
Kris Carr
00:44:15 – 00:44:33
And so for me, it was like I will do this on my own timeline when I’m ready. I’m not ready to talk about this. And I’m not going to have it forced upon me. So, but, you know, obviously it’s helpful to have these things in place. It’s something that I’m working on now.
Kris Carr
00:44:34 – 00:44:55
I’m 52, and I really wasn’t ready to do it. And for me, it was a psychological block. And now it feels like, you know, my husband and I get on a turbulent plane, and we own our business together, and we run everything together. And it’s sort of like, jeez. Still a little stressed out that we don’t have.
Kris Carr
00:44:56 – 00:45:29
I mean so it’s like, let’s Just take care of some of these things, especially because it makes whether you realize it or not, it brings you more peace and clarity and what not. It’s also really important as our life does become shorter, because dying is a big job. It’s a big job. And we, as a culture, we are the first to throw the big parties and get all the gear and the showers and what not, for when a baby comes into this planet. And it’s a wonderful celebratory event.
Kris Carr
00:45:30 – 00:46:07
But dying is very complicated it takes a lot of energy and it leaves a lot of tentacles and yet it’s so scary for many of us that we don’t have somebody to walk through it with. And that’s when a lot of stuff can happen, I think, in families too. A lot of undue stress and tension and discord and even, you know, estrangements and whatnot. So my dad and I talked about it a lot. At first, it was hard to talk about though, and I wasn’t sure if he wanted to talk about it.
Kris Carr
00:46:07 – 00:46:24
And so I approached it very delicately. Is this something you’d like to talk about? And the answer was yes. And I worked on it with my therapist because I was afraid that I would fall apart and make things worse. And I said, I am willing to talk about these things.
Kris Carr
00:46:25 – 00:46:34
I might not always keep it together. There will be tissues. I might say the wrong thing, but I’m willing to show up. And he was grateful for it. And so we did talk about that.
Kris Carr
00:46:34 – 00:46:55
We did talk about his fears. We did talk about his wishes. And we talked about what he wanted at his celebration of life. There were absolute tears. When hospice came, they told us with him in the room, you know that this is not curative.
Kris Carr
00:46:56 – 00:47:11
We are making you comfortable. Here are the stages of what will happen. This is what will happen as your body starts to shut down. This family is what we’re teaching you and how to support. I’d never had candid conversations like that before.
Kris Carr
00:47:11 – 00:47:34
It was terrifying. I was grateful that we were in the middle of the pandemic because I had a mask on, and I would just pull it up really high. So that nobody could see that I was like, my lips were quivering and I was crying under the mask and whatnot. Because I was so scared to have that conversation. And I know people who, you know, whose loved ones have said, I’d really like to talk about what I want you to have.
Kris Carr
00:47:34 – 00:47:43
And they shut the loved one down and say, I don’t wanna talk about this. This isn’t positive. Oh, don’t worry about it. You’ve got plenty of time. La la la.
Kris Carr
00:47:43 – 00:48:07
That’s all coming from that person’s own discomfort, which I honor. But for the person who’s dying or struggling with mortality that you know, may have less time than you, it can be very isolating, create a lot more loneliness and a lot more discomfort. So it’s these opportunities that we have to really, like, grow up and show up.
Victoria Volk
00:48:08 – 00:48:11
Grow up and show up. Suck it up, buttercup.
Kris Carr
00:48:14 – 00:48:22
You know, you don’t want to. Like, I didn’t I really didn’t wanna put on my, like, big grown up panties, but I was like, I can do it now. When are you gonna do it?
Victoria Volk
00:48:23 – 00:48:32
But it is. It’s it’s the ability to okay. These are my emotions. I’m just gonna park them to the side before I walk in the store so that I can be fully present and give my loved one what they need.
Kris Carr
00:48:33 – 00:48:33
Yeah
Victoria Volk
00:48:34 – 00:48:36
And so that they feel heard.
Victoria Volk
00:48:36 – 00:49:09
And that is very difficult to do. And I think when you save those conversations for the death bed, that time could be spent having rich, meaningful conversations. And so I think it’s the importance of us planning for ourselves ahead of time so that we can have those deeper conversations and we’re not worried about the logistics after we’re gone. I think that’s the biggest service we can give our loved ones that we have power to do, I think.
Kris Carr
00:49:09 – 00:49:25
Yeah. The second intention so I wanna just I’ll remind that you’ve when everyone listening, the first intention that was helpful for me, I throw it out if it’s gonna be helpful for anyone else, is to lead with love. You know, like, I don’t know what to do. I don’t know what to say. I don’t know how to show up.
Kris Carr
00:49:25 – 00:49:50
What would love do? What would love say? What does leading with love look like? And then just do that. And then the second thing is an intention that I set for myself, and this really helped me in the difficult conversations that I thought I would literally implode or come undone or just like, evaporate in my chair because they were so scary and big and hard in my mind was, how do I minimize my regrets?
Victoria Volk
00:49:51 – 00:49:51
Mmm
Kris Carr
00:49:53 – 00:50:11
What’s it gonna take for me to minimize my regrets? Am I gonna regret that I didn’t have the courage to have this conversation when my loved one wanted to have it? Yes. I am gonna regret that. Is that fear of that regret bigger than my lack of courage right now?
Kris Carr
00:50:11 – 00:50:14
Yes. There’s your answer.
Victoria Volk
00:50:16 – 00:50:19
The answers are in the deeper questions, really.
Kris Carr
00:50:19 – 00:50:20
Not easy.
Victoria Volk
00:50:21 – 00:51:03
You talk about caregiving and giving versus receiving, and being I loved how you said this, but being a giver you felt like nothing could ever be taken away from me. And you said, listen to the whispers before they become roars. And so just the act of like caregiving versus giving. And, you know, I think just in reading your story, reading the book, which I highly recommend everybody does because there’s so many layers to yours to your book that I would love to cover all of those in this podcast. But can you just speak to a little bit for those who are in the caregiving role and people who have always been the giver, giver, giver, giver, giver, giver, and then they find themselves in the giving role.
Victoria Volk
00:51:03 – 00:51:24
And then like yourself where you’re diagnosed and then you’re having to receive and the challenge of that. And then you’re having you’re you’re needing like, not needing support, but being faced with this grief of a different kind of grief right, with your chosen father. Again, here, I’m asking like, 3 questions in 1. Can you just speak to that giving versus receiving a little bit?
Kris Carr
00:51:25 – 00:51:42
Yeah. I think it’s helpful for each of us if we struggle with receiving, to really get to the nugget of the why. Because the nugget of the why has freedom for us. And for me, it was actually really as a result of writing this book. Because when you write, you have to figure shit out.
Victoria Volk
00:51:43 – 00:51:43
uh-huh mmm.
Kris Carr
00:51:43 – 00:51:57
You have to be able to articulate it. You have to be able to understand it. It’s not just an esoteric feeling or vibe that you have. And for me, I was like, wow. It wasn’t until I wrote that sentence that pieces of me came together.
Kris Carr
00:51:58 – 00:52:15
Yeah. And I knew that somewhere, but I didn’t really understand it. And it goes back to that core trauma of loss, of abandonment. So if I’m the giver, nothing can be taken from me. If I receive, something can be taken from me.
Kris Carr
00:52:16 – 00:52:32
So what does that hit? Big core wound for me. So if we if not everybody struggles with this, but if you do, you know, like, get to the heart of the tootsie roll pop. And you’d be surprised what’s there. And the oh, I can spend some time with this.
Kris Carr
00:52:32 – 00:53:00
And then it becomes easier to receive because we need to receive when we’re going through these difficult times. We need self-care practices. We need to keep our well not full because that’s not possible. But not running on empty that you’re going into burnout and then, you know, adrenal issues and physical illness and all the stuff that comes with it. So we’re not looking for perfection here.
Kris Carr
00:53:00 – 00:53:41
I have the full tank, and I’m all spiffy, and I’ve just had a lifestyle makeover, and I’m living my best life. It’s, like, not gonna happen when we’re going through a difficult time. But, boy, do those difficult times make us grow and evolve and become people we really wanna be. I think just to button up self-care, understanding why we might have resistance around receiving, and then as caregivers, making sure that we’re putting our masks on and we’re taking care of ourselves so that we can be as resilient as possible, as stress hardy as possible, because it’s a roller coaster. And I always encourage people to come to the day with as much as they possibly can.
Kris Carr
00:53:42 – 00:53:44
And we can’t do that when we’re on empty.
Victoria Volk
00:53:45 – 00:54:10
You talk about having 2 intentions for the book, like, for the audience, those reading it and for you to normalize conversations around the different emotions so that people feel less alone and crazy and that to heal the deeper parts of yourself as a result of this writing. And you kind of touched on one of those. But what did you learn about and heal for yourself while you’re writing it and since the book has been out?
Kris Carr
00:54:12 – 00:55:20
You know, you write the book and then you think it’s one thing, and then you talk about the book and it becomes something else.
Victoria Volk
00:54:20 – 00:54:20
Mmm..
Kris Carr
00:54:21 – 00:55:04
And, so the whole process is very illuminating. And I’d say my biggest growth edge has been my willingness to talk about really difficult things, even more difficult things than my own diagnosis. And you read that vulnerability is a strength, and it can be a meme and a TED Talk and all the things. But then I think for me, until I really allow myself to go to a more vulnerable place, And I did push myself in the book to tell the stories the way they were and not a polished version that would be more appropriate for Instagram, that I did find a real strength in that.
Kris Carr
00:55:04 – 00:55:17
And the strength in that vulnerability isn’t a hard strength. It’s a soft strength. That strength and that softness of vulnerability, something I’m still exploring and experiencing but really enjoying.
Victoria Volk
00:55:19 – 00:55:21
Do you have any regrets?
Kris Carr
00:55:24 – 00:55:51
My dad wanted to have a celebration of life on Zoom while he was still alive, in addition to the celebration of life that he had and we had when he was gone, and I couldn’t do it. And I said, I can’t do that. I can’t do that. No. And it didn’t happen, and I regret that.
Victoria Volk
00:55:55 – 00:56:01
Is there anything else you would like to share, or do you have a little bit of time where I can ask a few more questions?
Kris Carr
00:56:02 – 00:56:06
Yeah. I can definitely do a little more time? Yeah.
Victoria Volk
00:56:07 – 00:56:07
Okay.
Kris Carr
00:56:08 – 00:56:09
Maybe 5 minutes or so.
Victoria Volk
00:56:09 – 00:56:18
Okay. Let me just look here. I wanna make sure I’m picking the one I wanted to pick. Oh, yeah. This is one thing you hear a lot.
Victoria Volk
00:56:18 – 00:56:34
Like, especially after people pass away. They lost their battle to cancer or they’re losing the battle. Did you have moments that you felt this or was this outside messaging? And what do you think about this messaging?
Kris Carr
00:56:36 – 00:56:58
I think every patient is different. It is not my preferred messaging for myself because I live with cancer, so I don’t see that I’m warring with my body. I think that I have cancer in my liver and both of my lungs. Those organs need more support. Those organs are struggling.
Kris Carr
00:56:58 – 00:57:16
Why am I gonna beat them up? Why you know what I mean? I wanna learn more about them so I can care for them and see what they like and what they don’t like. And, again, going back to that part of, like, amputating parts of ourselves. I was worrying with my body way before cancer
Victoria Volk
00:57:16 – 00:57:16
Mmm..
Kris Carr
00:57:17 – 00:57:20
of you know, other things I didn’t like about myself or my weight or whatever it was at the time.
Kris Carr
00:57:21 – 00:57:36
Just always in a fight with my body. And it’s like, gosh, this body does so much on a daily basis to keep me alive. Things I could never even wrap my mind around. It’s a miracle. It’s like I wanna be on the side of my body, not fighting against it.
Kris Carr
00:57:36 – 00:58:07
So that, again, does not work for me. I think my biggest pet peeve is when people who don’t have cancer use cancer metaphors. Like, I don’t get triggered by a lot of things. I’m not a you know, I’m not a I don’t really walk on eggshells or things like this, but it does bother me when people use cancer metaphors of like, that behavior is a cancer or that person is a metastasis or you know, a lot of folks use that. And so I would say, don’t do that.
Victoria Volk
00:58:08 – 00:58:08
Mhmm.
Kris Carr
00:58:09 – 00:58:13
Doesn’t feel good for people who actually have cancer.
Victoria Volk
00:58:13 – 00:58:23
Right. Thank you for sharing that. What is something about you that many people don’t know? It’s not in the books. You haven’t said it before.
Victoria Volk
00:58:23 – 00:58:28
I guess you answered maybe the one regret. Maybe I have I don’t know if you’ve said that before, but
Kris Carr
00:58:28 – 00:58:43
No. I’ve never said that before. People don’t know about me. Well, I have said a lot of things about me because I do use my stories. My teaching method, I like to teach through stories.
Kris Carr
00:58:44 – 00:59:02
Well, I have been into Budweiser Super Bowl commercials.
Victoria Volk
00:58:47 – 00:58:47
What?
Kris Carr
00:58:47 – 00:59:02
In my previous career as an actor, and as somebody who did a lot of TV commercials and a lot of advertising, I was into Budweiser Super Bowl, bowl commercials.
Victoria Volk
00:59:03 – 00:59:04
That’s pretty cool.
Kris Carr
00:59:06 – 00:59:07
That’s cool.
Victoria Volk
00:59:09 – 00:59:17
Too bad it couldn’t have been, well, the Budweiser well, it was I thought the best one this past Super Bowl was the Dunkings. Dunkings.
Kris Carr
00:59:18 – 00:59:27
That’s amazing. Yeah. Yeah. I usually watch the commercials because it was just, like, a very big part of my career but I didn’t watch them this year. But this really is kinda like the Oscars of advertising.
Victoria Volk
00:59:27 – 00:59:27
Yeah.
Kris Carr
00:59:28 – 00:59:28
So
Victoria Volk
00:59:29 – 00:59:39
that’s that’s very cool. Okay. Well, I will leave it there. I think that’s a fun. We’ll leave it on a fun note.
Kris Carr
00:59:39 – 00:59:39
Yeah
Victoria Volk
00:59:39 – 00:59:53
And, because if I ask another question, it’s gonna be a deep run, probably. So you just have to read the book, my friends, because all the questions I’d probably ask her in the book. Anything else you would like to share, though?
Kris Carr
00:59:54 – 01:00:08
No. Thank you so much. This is a beautiful interview, and I’m so appreciative of the places that you took it. I really love having these transparent, honest conversations. Again, going back to how have you grown?
Kris Carr
01:00:08 – 01:00:16
What have you learned? And these are the conversations I wanna have. So thank you for allowing me to have one with you and with your community.
Victoria Volk
01:00:17 – 01:00:26
Thank you. I purposefully did not watch any of your other podcast interviews or listened to anything else because I just wanted to stay in my own lane
Kris Carr
01:00:26 – 01:00:26
Yeey!
Victoria Volk
01:00:27 – 01:00:29
because I can’t let’s see. Like, I have so much did you see the highlight?
Kris Carr
01:00:29 – 01:00:31
Oh my gosh.
Victoria Volk
01:00:31 – 01:00:59
I don’t know why I do that screen like that, but there’s so many. I’ve highlights and doggy ears, and it just really I really enjoyed the book. If people are uncomfortable with grief, I think it’s a wonderful story. You again, like you said, you I think teaching through story is the best way to share information. It’s something I think I personally need to do more of.
Victoria Volk
01:00:59 – 01:01:20
And so thank you for writing this book. I think it’s wonderful for people who are going through something that can maybe see a different perspective through a lens of someone who’s been living it for so long in so many different ways.
Kris Carr
01:01:17 – 01:01:17
Mmm
Victoria Volk
01:00:17 – 01:01:20
It’s a great example of grief and the many faces of it. So thank you.
Kris Carr
01:01:20 – 01:01:21
Thanks, Victoria.
Victoria Volk
01:01:22 – 01:01:24
And where can people find you?
Kris Carr
01:01:24 – 01:01:34
You can find me at kriscarr.com. You can find me on Instagram at @crazysexykris, and the book is available anywhere books are sold.
Victoria Volk
01:01:34 – 01:01:42
And I will put links in the show notes. Remember, when you unleash your heart, you unleash your life. Much love.
Death/Dying, Grief, Grieving Voices Guest, Pespective |
SHOW NOTES SUMMARY:
Are you truly living if you’re ignoring the inevitable end? This question might feel heavy, but Greg Barnsdale doesn’t shy away from it; he has built a movement around it.
Greg is not your typical undertaker. With his diverse background as a Certified Financial Planner, Certified Executor Advisor, and death doula – topped with personal experiences that have tested his own mortality – he brings an unparalleled perspective to life’s final chapter.
In this episode:
- Uncover the life-changing benefits of adopting a ‘mortality mindset.’
- Learn how planning for the end can actually enhance your present.
- Hear about Greg’s transformative journey from near-death to advocacy.
- Explore why families must break the silence on this taboo topic before time runs out.
Did You Know?
Despite being an expert in end-of-life matters himself, even Greg faced procrastination regarding his arrangements. His candid story will challenge you to think differently about tomorrow.
After penning a book on end-of-life preparation and facing his brain tumor diagnosis, Greg has become a vocal proponent of what he calls the “mortality mindset movement.” He shares his insights into why embracing our inevitable end can lead to profound benefits like stress reduction, family harmony, and emotional resilience.
Greg’s diverse background, from directing funerals to advising on estates, gives him a unique perspective on why having those tough conversations about death now is critical rather than in times of crisis. His own brush with mortality served as a stark reminder that life is unpredictable and planning ahead is key.
We also delve into how societal views on funerals are shifting towards more personal and intimate commemorations. Plus, Greg offers practical advice for both simple DIY estate planning and when to seek professional help for more complex scenarios.
His message? Don’t wait until it’s too late – start talking about your end-of-life wishes today. It’s not just about ensuring peace of mind; it’s about living fully right up until the last moment.
RESOURCES:
CONNECT:
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NEED HELP?
- National Suicide Prevention Lifeline: 1-800-273-8255
- Crisis Text Line provides free, 24/7 support via text message. Text HOME to 741741 to connect with a trained Crisis Counselor
If you are struggling with grief due to any of the 40+ losses, free resources are available HERE.
CONNECT WITH VICTORIA:
Embracing Mortality: Living Fully by Planning for the End
Death is a subject that many of us prefer to avoid. It’s uncomfortable, it’s frightening, and it often feels very distant from the vibrancy of daily life. However, Greg Barnsdell—a man who wears many hats as an undertaker, financial planner, certified executor advisor, and death doula—argues that acknowledging our mortality can be one of the most profound actions we take toward living a meaningful life.
In this episode of “Grieving Voices,” Greg shares his personal journey with mortality after being diagnosed with a brain tumor. His experience has led him to become a vocal advocate for what he calls the “mortality mindset movement.” This philosophy encourages individuals not only to accept their inevitable end but also to prepare for it in ways that leave behind a positive legacy.
The Unseen Benefits of End-of-Life Planning
Greg emphasizes how planning for our demise can offer unexpected gifts:
– **Reduced Stress:** Knowing your affairs are in order provides peace of mind.
– **Family Harmony:** Clear directives alleviate potential conflicts among loved ones during times of grief.
– **Financial Resilience:** Proper planning secures assets and ensures they are distributed according to your wishes.
Despite these benefits, procrastination is common. Host Victoria confesses her own hesitation on this front—an admission shared by many listeners.
A Life Unexpectedly Intertwined With Death
Greg’s career trajectory took an unplanned detour into funeral services when his dreams of becoming a helicopter pilot didn’t pan out. Through his varied experiences in both funeral directing and financial planning, he gained unique insights into why preparing for death is crucial—not just at life’s end but throughout its entirety.
He advocates having candid conversations about death within families before crisis strikes. These discussions prevent confusion and strife during moments already heavy with emotion—the grieving process becomes slightly more bearable when there’s clarity about final wishes.
Personal Loss as Powerful Motivation
The sudden loss of Greg’s mother was pivotal; she had thoughtfully prepared for her passing which greatly eased her family’s burden during their time of mourning. Her foresight served as inspiration; even those seemingly healthy can have their lives change—or end—instantly due to unforeseen events or health issues like falls or illnesses.
As someone who has faced my own health scares head-on—including surgery related to my brain tumor—I understand firsthand how quickly one’s perspective on life (and death) can shift when confronted with one’s vulnerability.
My book aims not only at inspiring others but also serves as my testament—to urge people not just to think about these matters but to act upon them while they still have agency over their decisions. Yet ironically enough, I found myself facing down my own advice shortly following its publication when I was thrust into confronting my mortality anew through illness—it reinforced everything I preached about early communication regarding end-of-life choices.
Legacy Isn’t Just About Assets – It’s About Intentions
I’ve learned through both professional encounters and personal trials that appreciating each day isn’t merely platitudinal—it requires action so you may influence your legacy positively posthumously. Discussions around wills or medical directives should find space amidst family gatherings rather than waiting until necessity demands urgency—and potentially breeds conflict.
For some individuals without complex estates or familial ties such estate planning might seem straightforward enough to tackle alone—but caution should be taken here too because oversights could result in significant emotional strain later on if plans aren’t thorough.
Living intentionally means recognizing every day offers opportunities towards crafting the narrative you wish left behind once you’re gone—that includes making informed decisions around funerals too which increasingly lean away from traditional practices towards personalized memorials reflecting individual beliefs preferences whether religious cultural otherwise.
Finally sharing knowledge via social media platforms like TikTok where viral videos spread awareness quicker than ever before helps bridge generational gaps ensuring messages reach wider audiences faster than traditional methods would allow thus helping demystify topics previously shrouded by taboo silence fear misunderstanding alike.
So remember preparation isn’t pessimistic—it acknowledges reality embraces certainty empowers control creating lasting impact beyond measure securing tranquility amidst uncertainty embracing every moment fully along way.
To learn more and delve deeper into these concepts consider picking up “Do Not Ignore Your Mortality” available online through major retailers including Amazon connect further via LinkedIn, Facebook searching for either author name book title respectively let conversation continue grow evolve together society whole better off knowing ready anything comes next no matter what may be.
Episode Transcription:
Victoria Volk
00:00:00 – 00:00:14
Welcome to another episode of Grieving Voices. Today, my guest is Greg Barnsdell. He is an unusual undertaker. After years of stressing to others, get your grief get your excuse me, Get your affairs in order.
Victoria Volk
00:00:14 – 00:00:39
And finally publishing a book to inspire others, he was diagnosed with a large brain tumor. Faced with a death sentence, he opted for surgery. He’s now emerged with an extremely compelling message shared by few others. As a certified financial planner who is also a certified executor advisor, his perspectives are unique. As a death doula who has published a well received book regarding the importance of planning and ahead.
Victoria Volk
00:00:39 – 00:01:16
His message is gaining solid traction. He stresses what he calls the mortality mindset movement where followers uphold their living legacy and becoming the best versions of themselves and ultimately leave their last legacy as the best one possible. His claims include the fact that end of life planning reduces the stress of aging, improves family harmony, creates greater emotional and financial resilience and increases social capital and improves court efficiency. And a growing number of people firmly agree. And as an end of life doula myself, I wholeheartedly agree as well.
Victoria Volk
00:01:16 – 00:01:35
But have I personally done my own homework? I will admit that I have not. I think about it a lot, actually. Like, just even the fact that when you have a business, right, like, it’s even more important that I mean, I was just thinking about it the other day. I’m thinking, oh, my gosh.
Victoria Volk
00:01:35 – 00:02:02
Like, if because I have an 18/17 and 15-year-old. And if I something happened to me, and I’m just thinking about my business and all these accounts and different like auto like this, all these autopay stuff I have, like all of this stuff, like, oh, my gosh, That’d be so overwhelming for my loved ones. You know, incredibly overwhelming. And my husband is not, like, tech-savvy at all. He would be just completely distraught.
Victoria Volk
00:02:02 – 00:02:21
So I know a lot of it would fall probably on my middle. And she’s only 17. Yeah, I need to get my act together too. So thank you so much for joining me today and maybe encouraging all of us to finally get our affairs in order and doing some planning ahead.
Greg Barnsdale
00:02:23 – 00:02:41
Well, thank you for having me Victoria it’s a It’s a tough topic, isn’t it? And it’s something that a lot of us don’t want to face because we just assume that each day will carry on and tomorrow will be the same as today and yesterday was. It’s not an easy subject to think about.
Victoria Volk
00:02:42 – 00:02:46
How many years have you been working in the death space?
Greg Barnsdale
00:02:46 – 00:03:39
Well, I’ve worked in a number of different roles, back in the, I’m almost 60 now. But when I was, almost 20, I joined the, funeral industry. I wanted to be a helicopter pilot actually, but didn’t have enough physics, so I ended up being an undertaker, which was a bit of a shift. And I worked at that for a decade in large and small funeral homes and really enjoyed it, and my family were not in the industry at all. It shocked my parents and my sister when I told them that I wanted to be a funeral director, but that’s what my guidance counselor had actually recommended in high school. So, I enjoyed that industry, and then I actually changed, kept my funeral director’s license and actually joined the financial planning industry, and enjoyed that for quite a number of years too.
Greg Barnsdale
00:03:39 – 00:04:20
I gained the certified financial planning designation and I always knew that the experience that I had in the funeral industry and dealing with families at the time of a death, and also helping many people pre-plan ahead of time, for their funeral, would somehow I’d be able to create something that would help people. And All my financial planning clients knew that I was a funeral director as well, and I was always eager to speak to them about putting plans in place and updating their life insurance make sure they had a current invalid will and all those things so that if something happened, their family would be in far better shape than they otherwise would.
Victoria Volk
00:04:21 – 00:04:35
I wanna go back to that guidance counselor. What do you think it was that he or she saw in you that recommended or suggested that? And what was it in you that was like, oh, yeah. I think I would like that. Just curious.
Greg Barnsdale
00:04:36 – 00:05:04
I don’t know Victoria, but I suspected it was the fact that I was a rather quiet person. I still am. I’m very much an introvert as opposed to an extrovert, But I think it was that and maybe my interest in medical issues and science and those sorts of things. But in this smaller high school that I attended, I think I was only the second student in its history to join the funeral industry, actually.
Victoria Volk
00:05:05 – 00:05:24
Once you got into it, though, like, it does definitely take a special person, Right? So what do you think it is about you though, that you were so successful in that endeavor? You know, because so many people, especially at 17, 18, like, they’re lost. They don’t have a clue what they wanna do.
Victoria Volk
00:05:24 – 00:05:36
And, you know, you kinda just pluck something out of the air and hope it sticks and off majority of the time, it doesn’t. Right? Like, it’s yeah. So right. That’s a grief too.
Victoria Volk
00:05:36 – 00:05:49
Like, a loss of hopes, dreams, and expectations for your life. Like something that this other thing you wanted to do, but you fell into this and it turned out it worked for you. But
Greg Barnsdale
00:05:43 – 00:05:43
Yes,
Victoria Volk
00:05:43 – 00:05:49
What is it about you like? What makes a special undertaker?
Victoria Volk
00:05:49 – 00:05:55
I guess when people are looking for someone who they’re entrusting, really,
Greg Barnsdale
00:05:55 – 00:05:56
yes,
Victoria Volk
00:05:56 – 00:06:03
their loved one, their morning experience to, like, what are some things that you recommend that people look for?
Greg Barnsdale
00:06:04 – 00:06:42
Well, it’s a compassion for other people and what they’re going through and having empathy with those people and knowing how to help them and listen to them I don’t think I had any special unique skills going into the funeral industry but as I joined it and worked with others and learned about the industry, I actually enjoyed it, which to some people may sound a little unusual but working in that industry gives employees or workers in the death care industry a lot of personal satisfaction knowing that they’re helping people on the worst day of their life.
Victoria Volk
00:06:42 – 00:07:52
It is one of the worst days of someone’s life. Right? It is an experience that on oftentimes it’s unexpected and it’s and like we were talking before we started when we started recording, It’s overwhelming. It’s just a completely overwhelming process.
Greg Barnsdale
00:06:52 – 00:06:52
Yes
Victoria Volk
00:06:52 – 00:07:08
And to be able to sit with people in that time of need, Did you have a lot of experience with death prior to that?
Victoria Volk
00:07:08 – 00:07:20
Like, had you had what had what were the lessons and what were the beliefs and things that you had about death and experiences that you had before you went into that industry?
Greg Barnsdale
00:07:22 – 00:08:36
Well, one of the more significant, events in my life was the death of my grandfather, of a heart attack, actually, just prior to me attending college to become a funeral director But other than that, I didn’t as I said, I didn’t have any family in the funeral business I didn’t have any direct ties to the industry. But, a good friend of mine actually in high school ended up working for this small town funeral home, cleaning on a part-time basis after school. And behind the funeral home was an ambulance service which used to be quite common years ago but, anyway, I would go and visit my friend Mike occasionally at the funeral home and then I got to know some of the staff and some of the ambulance attendants and then it just seemed like an interesting atmosphere to learn more about and then I inquired about going to college that was my plan B as I said because the other occupation didn’t work out for me so I ended up going that route and I’m so glad that I did because I worked in the industry for quite a number of years and I still have my funeral directors license So it’s been almost 40 years now that I’ve been a licensed funeral director.
Victoria Volk
00:08:36 – 00:09:01
What are some mistakes, learnings? I hate to say mistakes. I think everything is a learning experience. But what are some things that people need to understand about that process and maybe some tips that you can provide people when they’re going through something going through a loss and find themselves having to speak with someone like you.
Greg Barnsdale
00:09:01 – 00:10:10
Right. Well, the most top of mind thought that I have really comes back to this book that I’ve published.And the primary message of this, Victoria, is for people to try and embrace this whole aspect of the fact that ultimately we will die, and it’s important vitally important that we get thinking about this and plan for it. There are so many people and I saw this in both the funeral industry and when I worked in that industry I don’t anymore I’m promoting this book full time but when I also worked as a certified financial planner and also as a certified executor advisor as you mentioned in my bio, I’ve seen so many situations where people have been reluctant to plan, they’ve been reluctant to talk to their family members or in some cases they go I suggest they talk to their children about educating them on what they want and where their will is and the plans that we’ve been putting in place financially, etcetera. And in some cases, the children don’t wanna talk about it or they’ll say things like, oh, dad, don’t talk about that. You know?
Greg Barnsdale
00:10:11 – 00:10:34
I get it that people are uncomfortable with, so much of this, but in overcoming that uncomfortableness in the short term and talking and planning around what we want in regards to our end-of-life experience and for our legacy, etcetera, makes it so so much easier for those that we love after we’re gone.
Victoria Volk
00:10:35 – 00:11:06
Considering there’s so many different ways that people leave this their physical bodies, you know, tragic accident, cancer, you know, where you have maybe more time and maybe with, with the diagnosis, maybe you don’t even have a lot of time. Sometimes people pass
Greg Barnsdale
00:10:50 – 00:10:50
Yes
Victoria Volk
00:10:50 – 00:11:06
really quickly after a diagnosis. Is it advised that people find someone, an executor or a financial planner? Like, what are the steps that you recommend people take if there’s if they’re yes. I read your book.
Victoria Volk
00:11:06 – 00:11:12
Do not ignore your mortality. I wanna do this. I wanna get started. Where do I begin?
Greg Barnsdale
00:11:12 – 00:12:20
Well, the first initial steps should be speaking with those that you love, those that are closest to you about what you want to have happen. And within my book, I list some of the, questions that I think are good effective questions. And people tell are telling me that after reading my book, they’re inspired to get talking to their family and pull out their will and read it and really lean into this which is awesome I’m that’s really was the whole intention of this book that I want to share with as many people as I can because this is so desperately needed but that is the very first step, Victoria, is to speak with our family about do we want to be buried and if so where is where are past family members buried or do we want to be cremated or do we now people have the option of actually being recycled of all things so that you know the the funeral industry the death care industry is slow to change but it is changing and people need to know what their options are but if we don’t communicate with others about how we’re feeling in our values and what’s important to us, it did it stalls.
Greg Barnsdale
00:12:20 – 00:12:21
It doesn’t get going.
Victoria Volk
00:12:21 – 00:12:51
What do you think are the aside from not maybe the individuals themselves or the loved ones who just don’t want to talk about it? And then something happens and then, you know, there’s all this overwhelm happening within a family. And then you got dynamics. Right? Family dynamics
Greg Barnsdale
00:12:40 – 00:12:40
Yeah
Victoria Volk
00:12:40 – 00:12:51
where I mean, I’ve seen it personally myself in people I know in relationships where, you know, the parents pass or the last remaining parent passes, and they didn’t have the stuff lined up.
Victoria Volk
00:12:51 – 00:13:01
And there’s so much in fighting
Greg Barnsdale
00:12:54 – 00:12:54
Yeah
Victoria Volk
00:12:54 – 00:13:01
and relationships just deteriorate and blow up because of lack of planning.
Greg Barnsdale
00:13:02 – 00:14:03
Right. And ironically, Victoria, end-of-life planning are not only reduces the stress of aging but to answer to come circle back to the point the very important point that you just raised as we talk with our family about our legacy and what we want to leave behind and who gets what, etcetera, and if the cottage should be left or the the cabin should be left in the family home and who’s gonna buy it and who’s gonna use it or the family business or whatever it tends to that higher level of communication in regards to something that is truly in our heart about our legacy and who we are and what we leave behind tends to improve family dynamics and family harmony, and I get what you’re saying. I too have seen it within my own family. You know? It it’s so prevalent in families all over the place it seems but and is there such a thing as a normal family anymore?
Greg Barnsdale
00:14:03 – 00:14:20
I don’t think there necessarily is but you’re you’re exactly right At the time of a death and afterwards, especially if the affairs have not been organized thoroughly and discussed thoroughly, it can often result in a frustrating mess.
Victoria Volk
00:14:20 – 00:15:04
I wanna kinda talk a little bit about and if you wanna share any personal story around this or examples of stories that you’ve seen, be feel free to, but I just for people listening, I wanna just bring this to the topic of grief. And when you have a loved one that passes, and we’re talking about that dying that family dynamic, and you can have 4 people, 4 children that grow up in the same household that have very different relation. Every single individual in that family will have a different relationship with that parent. You don’t always know as the other siblings or other family members what that relationship was like. Your parent could have had a really close relationship with a niece or nephew that they almost considered like a child.
Victoria Volk
00:15:04 – 00:15:45
Right?
Greg Barnsdale
00:15:05 – 00:15:05
Yes
Victoria Volk
00:15:05 – 00:15:45
That they include in the will, and then the children are kind of don’t get something that this other individual got, and they don’t understand it because they don’t understand that relationship. They didn’t know the dynamics of that relationship.
Greg Barnsdale
00:15:30 – 00:15:30
Yes
Victoria Volk
00:15:30 – 00:15:45
And I think that’s where so much of this infighting happens is that we’re bringing our perspective of our grief and our relationship with that person and that individual who passed and just emotionally vomiting all over each other is what we end up doing and projecting our own emotions about this loss and what this means for me and what this means for them. And, you know, they were always the favorite and they’re getting everything.
Victoria Volk
00:15:45 – 00:16:04
And it was all these whatever the perspective was about the relationship, it’s going to just completely manifest at this really old emotionally overwhelming time, which is to your point of why it’s so important for us to plan ahead. Anything you would like to add to that?
Greg Barnsdale
00:16:05 – 00:17:16
You’ve hit the nail on the head, Victoria. It’s the aspect of ignoring these sorts of things and doing nothing is very easy to do in the short term I think putting off these types of topics is is the easiest thing to do and we’re all procrastinators at heart and we can all be doing things better, I think, to a degree For those that do ignore these types of things and don’t have the conversations the chance of them dying and leaving a mess of frustration and bitterness and a lousy legacy and family in fighting is incredibly high plus the fact that more money is typically spent in regards to settling the estate could very well be that a good amount of money is spent on lawyers’ fees to sort out the bickering and the fighting and the and I was speaking to and I was on another podcast, host session last week and he ended up spending over $50,000 in legal fees to sort out his situation that’s why he wrote a book and it took over 7 years to settle the estates of his mom and dad. His brothers and sisters no longer speak to one another and he ended up having a heart attack in the process.
Greg Barnsdale
00:17:16 – 00:17:55
So you know that’s just one story of many but the overriding solution to all of this is to face our mortality and accept the fact that we’re not going to live forever. And at some point, we may become frail and unable to make decisions for ourselves. So it’s also important to have something set up like a medical directive or a power of attorney as we call them here, in Canada to have someone speak for us if we can’t make those decisions and it’s not easy to set that up either because again, we have to face the fact that we might not be able to speak at some point.
Victoria Volk
00:17:56 – 00:18:40
I’m glad you brought the conversation there because I wanted to talk a little bit and bring a little bit more of the end-of-life doula,
Greg Barnsdale
00:18:01 – 00:18:01
Yes
Victoria Volk
00:18:01 – 00:18:40
background that we both have into the conversation because my father had been diagnosed with cancer and I think 16 months or so was how long he lived. He wasn’t given that long, but he lived that long and we ended up in the nursing home. And, you know, now there’s so many much more like hospice and home health. And there’s so much more of those resources available now that there weren’t back then. But I didn’t understand one thing that shocked me when I went through my end-of-life doula training was that it is possible to have a death experience that you want, like, I did not even believe I didn’t even know that that was possible.
Victoria Volk
00:18:41 – 00:19:27
Like, you can decide what kind of music you want to be what you know, if you want music played, if you who you don’t want to come see you. I mean, and making sure that you have someone, you know, like the gatekeeper, right?
Greg Barnsdale
00:18:46 – 00:18:46
Yes
Victoria Volk
00:18:46 – 00:19:27
You have a gatekeeper that, you know, make sure that your death experience is what you want it to be. And once you pass, do you want to be washed and all of these things that I hadn’t even considered that it just really opened my mind to, do you have any personal experience with because I personally have not utilized that end of life doula in my area, just because I it’s a very rural area. And I’m still trying to determine what that service or what that offering would look like for me personally, in my area.
Victoria Volk
00:19:27 – 00:19:32
But do you have any personal experience that you would like to share or talk about in that regard?
Greg Barnsdale
00:19:33 – 00:19:59
I’m glad you brought that up, Victoria, because this too is critically important. And you’re exactly right. I think the vast majority of the population is not aware of these sorts of things. And that’s why these specialized types of podcasts like yours, that is so vitally important for people to tune into if they’re interested in this. It’s funny how I just said if they’re interested in this but if their hearts beating they should be interested in this right?
Victoria Volk
00:19:59 – 00:19:59
Right.
Greg Barnsdale
00:19:59 – 00:21:15
But when I last year maybe it was 2 years ago now when I completed my hospice training as a hospice volunteer, one of the things that they had asked us as part of the exercise and the training was to, write down how we wanted to die. And in all my training as a funeral director, I never had to do that. I had to fill out my own death certificate and those sorts of things and write lots of practice obituaries in my initial training and so on, which was helpful for that role. But I had never been asked before how I wanted to die, and it seemed like such a bizarre question and some of the people in the room were saying well I want to be on the golf course or I want to be doing this or I want to be doing that and it’s something that I think we should all consider at some point because you’re exactly right we do have those choices now and we in Ontario Canada where I am, I’m seeing and hearing of more and more hospices being set up all the time and when I wrote this, created the research the manuscript for this book that I published last year I realized that there is such a massive demand for people needing to volunteer for hospice.
Greg Barnsdale
00:21:16 – 00:21:29
There’s all kinds of facilities and services all are more and more all the time, but there is such a demand for people who unfortunately are dying, who are being admitted, and and they just need someone to come and speak with them.
Victoria Volk
00:21:29 – 00:21:57
That might just be the prompt I needed. Thank you for that. It’s not just about like how you want to die or what that process is that you want it to look like. But like you said, it’s very important that you have someone that you trust in, in that will have your best interest and will be steadfast in and committed to following through with what your wishes are. If you cannot speak, if you get to where you cannot speak.
Greg Barnsdale
00:21:57 – 00:21:57
Yeah
Victoria Volk
00:21:58 – 00:22:25
And that’s a really difficult position to be in, and it’s not for everybody. And then, you know, but if you, as the person who’s, you know, preparing that transition has chosen that person, other family cannot argue that, right?
Greg Barnsdale
00:22:20 – 00:22:20
Right.
Victoria Volk
00:22:20 – 00:22:21
Like other family,
Greg Barnsdale
00:22:21- 00:22:21
Right.
Victoria Volk
00:22:22 – 00:22:25
they, you know, that’s and how much distress and grief and in fighting will you eliminate by just simply choosing that person yourself?
Greg Barnsdale
00:22:25 – 00:23:26
And that fiduciary, as they’re called in that role to speak on your behalf, may not necessarily agree with your wishes of what you want if you’re, incapacitated and can’t speak but he or she has to speak up for you at that time which again is vitally important but as an example if I have in my power of attorney that I don’t wanna be put on life support and I would rather just die well my wife would have to speak up for me even if she didn’t necessarily agree with that and I had a conversation recently with my elderly father he’s almost 90. My mom died 4 years suddenly, and actually flatlined in front of me in the hospital which is another story but, my surviving father has recently decided that he wants to establish a do not resuscitate order so if something significant happens to him, he would rather just die. And that’s, again, a tough conversation to have, but we’ve had the conversation between he and I and my sister.
Victoria Volk
00:23:26 – 00:23:55
And let’s talk about your mom because I imagine that was very traumatic at the time and you didn’t have time. Right? You didn’t have the time to say all the things you wanted to say. And, you know, like what in the work that I do become emotionally complete, you know, as you maybe would have if someone was terminal and maybe you had a little bit more time in that process, but to have those deep and important conversations. So what would you like to share about that experience and what you glean from it after that?
Greg Barnsdale
00:23:55 – 00:24:28
Well, I guess the biggest thing, Victoria, is the fact that life can change on a dime. You know, my 82-year-old mother was rather active. She was an organist in a church and she had she was the organist at the local funeral home that I had worked at in this small town and she helped work for that funeral home for decades as the organist and she was out Christmas shopping with her girlfriend and after lunch she actually slipped and broke her hip ended up in the hospital broke her wrist as well and her mom died this way ironically in
Victoria Volk
00:24:28 – 00:24:28
Hmm
Greg Barnsdale
00:24:28 – 00:25:24
very similar fashion years ago but, we said to her mom you’ll be fine you know we’ll get you some physio they’ll be you know fix your wrist and it’ll take some rehab and such but you’ll be at home again with that in no time and then I was visiting her the next day she flatlined and here I was sitting there studying for my next estate planning exam and, and she flatlined all these nurses and doctors came in they started aggressively doing CPR and then they put her on life support and she died the next day so and it all seemed like a bad dream and just because I’m a funeral director doesn’t mean that I’m immune to the same types of feelings and turmoil etcetera. It was painful, incredibly painful, But I was so grateful that she had taken the time years ago and we had she and I had numerous conversations about what she wanted, primarily, I think, because I was a funeral director.
Victoria Volk
00:25:24 – 00:25:30
The burden that took off your father as well at the time, because here he how long had they been married?
Greg Barnsdale
00:25:30 – 00:25:32
Decades. They were married in 1960.
Victoria Volk
00:25:32 – 00:25:35
You know, so he lost his lifelong love.
Greg Barnsdale
00:25:35 – 00:25:35
Yeah.
Victoria Volk
00:25:36 – 00:25:46
In an instant. And imagine that’s like losing a limb, you know, you feel like you’ve lost a limb and a part of yourself and the overwhelm that that brings. Right?
Victoria Volk
00:25:46 – 00:25:55
So I’m sure that your presence and what your education and knowledge was a gift to them. And in that time too.
Greg Barnsdale
00:25:56 – 00:26:44
Yeah, well I think it certainly made it easier to a degree but it still seemed like a bad dream and so many people would had commented at the time of the funeral about how it was just so hard to believe that she was gone. And I’ve heard families say this so many times when I worked in the funeral business, that you know here we were sitting down in a funeral home arrangement office discussing you know all the details about the upcoming funeral in the next few days and when the body is going to be released from the hospital after the autopsy and all those sorts of difficult conversations that I had to have with families as a funeral director and quite often they would say things to me like I certainly never expected this to be part of my day today
Victoria Volk
00:26:46 – 00:27:02
My mom is gonna be 81. She still works. She still can get around and, you know, doesn’t need a walker or a cane or anything like that. And I feel like I would probably be thinking the same thing to myself. It’s she was out shopping, right?
Victoria Volk
00:27:02 – 00:27:09
Your mom’s out shopping. I mean, I could totally see that with my mom. And one of my mom’s greatest fears is falling on ice.
Greg Barnsdale
00:27:09 – 00:27:09
Yes,
Victoria Volk
00:27:09 – 00:27:36
And breaking a bone and breaking her hip and she will not go to work. She will stay home if it is really icy. Or if there’s been a lot of, you know, weather the day before a couple days, which is like she that is one of her greatest fears. And rightfully so because just like you illustrated, it’s like you think that they’re gonna recover and, you know, they’re gonna walk out of the hospital. And like you said, just need some physical therapy.
Victoria Volk
00:27:36 – 00:27:47
And, you know, a lot of people break bones and it doesn’t end their lives, you know? So I imagine that, yeah, it was a shock.
Greg Barnsdale
00:27:47 – 00:27:53
Yeah. For elderly people, for them to suffer a broken hip can often mean their demise, unfortunately.
Victoria Volk
00:27:54 – 00:28:11
The healing process right. Is not as quick and it’s, you know, you can, you’re more apt probably to blood clots and things like that. That,
Greg Barnsdale
00:28:12 – 00:28:12
Yeah
Victoria Volk
00:28:12 – 00:28:21
Yeah, but this isn’t the only thing that happened to you that kind of just flipped your world upside down in an instant. I mean you’ve had other things too and one of those was I think I mentioned that in your bio a little bit was your tumor.
Greg Barnsdale
00:28:21 – 00:30:09
Yes, as I jokingly say to my wife who has asked me for years, Greg do you want to get a tattoo, And I’ve always said no now I can say I have a tattoo I’ve got a 6-inch scar up the side of my head from having this non-cancerous tumor removed that too was a shock and as you said in the bio Victoria I have worked in and around death much of my 40-year career in various roles including a supervisor for one of the largest mortuaries in all of Canada actually so I’ve seen a lot but after taking years literally many many years to publish this, finally publishing this book with a message to help inspire people to plan ahead accordingly for their situation because everybody’s situation is so different 2 months after I published the book with a professional publishing firm I get diagnosed with a brain tumor which seems so incredibly ironic. Her key thing about this was my general physician who told me about this didn’t tell me if it was cancerous or not and I assumed it was cancerous but he said I’m waiting to hear back from an ear nose and throat specialist he should be calling me back here today and they want to set up an appointment with you as soon as possible because he showed me on the MRI in his computer it’s a large tumor and this all started from a ringing in my one ear so if you know of anyone or any of the listeners have tinnitus or tinnitus I think it’s called in one ear that’s the kicker it could be a brain tumor quite often people have tinnitus in both ears and that’s not indicative of a tumor but MRIs are more prevalent so they’re noticing these more and more all the time mine was an acoustic meaning hearing neuroma and as I said it was large they removed most of it almost a year ago.
Greg Barnsdale
00:30:10 – 00:30:23
And the recovery has been really good. I’ve been very happy with it. I’ve lost all the hearing in my left ear, which was a known, risk going into this and quite likely. But I’m I’m willing to put up with that. But they removed most of the tumor.
Greg Barnsdale
00:30:23 – 00:30:30
There’s still about 20%, that they couldn’t remove because it’s tightly wrapped around a number of facial nerves and my brain stem.
Victoria Volk
00:30:31 – 00:30:33
Yeah. I actually have ringing in my right ear.
Greg Barnsdale
00:30:33 – 00:30:35
You should get it checked.
Victoria Volk
00:30:35 – 00:30:40
But I was in the military too. So I’ve always just chalked it up to that. Thank you for that.
Greg Barnsdale
00:30:41 – 00:30:44
You’re well. I hope I hope I hope it’s all clean and you’re good to go.
Victoria Volk
00:30:45 – 00:30:56
Thank you for saying that. But brings up the question then, how has that changed your perspective on your health? How has this experience changed that perspective of your health?
Greg Barnsdale
00:30:56 – 00:30:57
I’m kidding.
Victoria Volk
00:30:57 – 00:30:59
Yeah. You’re being funny. I got it.
Greg Barnsdale
00:31:01 – 00:32:04
Well, actually, it’s inspired me to look after myself even more. I truly do think, Victoria, that there’s a higher power at work in my life that has given me a second chance because as I said, this tumor was non-cancerous. Then the recent MRI that I had is seems to be indicating and I’m still waiting to hear from the neurosurgeon actually but in the copy that I have from my interpretation of it as a lay person it seems that the tumor is not growing so I’m doing everything I can to look after myself and my wife is after me to a hearing aid but I think I’m getting along pretty well without it and I don’t want to put up with the hassles of a hearing aid at this point anyway but it’s truly given me I guess a greater appreciation of end of life issues because when I got home from that visit with the doctor my general physician, and he said, you’ve got a large tumor. The specialist is going to be calling you. I didn’t get you I was home 20 minutes later, in my vehicle and walking into the house and my cell phone went off and it was the secretary for the specialist office saying Greg, can you come in Monday morning at 9 o’clock?
Greg Barnsdale
00:32:04 – 00:32:22
We wanna see you. So I thought for sure I was doomed and it was cancerous my wife was working from home that day so I didn’t want to ruin her day with this terrible news that I had. So I didn’t tell her all day. And then I didn’t wanna ruin her dinner Thursday night. And then I didn’t wanna ruin her sleep Thursday night.
Greg Barnsdale
00:32:22 – 00:32:47
And then I didn’t wanna ruin her Friday. So I ended up telling her Saturday morning as Celine Dion’s My Heart Will Go On is playing in the background as we’re having our coffee and tears are coming down my eyes, and she said what’s wrong? So I had to tell her. So I did I had to face my own death after decades of telling all kinds of other people get act together and face this thing.
Victoria Volk
00:32:47 – 00:33:15
My husband loves Celine Deon. But that I mean, I was just I was kinda in the moment as you were saying it, and it’s like, anyone listening, just see yourself in this scenario. Like, just see yourself in this scenario and what would you do and what do you need to do to get your act together? Do not ignore your mortality as the title of your book states, and it’s a great title. It’s very direct, and it’s poignant. And, again, I haven’t gotten my act together.
Victoria Volk
00:33:15 – 00:33:28
I actually have a folder that includes this is really sad. So I actually I don’t even know where I got it. I think from the Veterans Administration, my husband and I are both veterans. And I think at one time, they were given these to the veterans. I’m not even sure.
Victoria Volk
00:33:28 – 00:33:37
Maybe we ordered it. I can’t even tell you. But it’s a folder that has all the documents that you would need to prepare,
Greg Barnsdale
00:33:38 – 00:33:38
Right
Victoria Volk
00:33:38 – 00:33:47
you know in advance. Actually, I do think we probably ordered it. But have we gone through them? No. Because I think we’ve actually probably had them at least 10 years.
Greg Barnsdale
00:33:48 – 00:33:48
Yeah.
Victoria Volk
00:33:48 – 00:34:00
At least. And, you know, now it’s like, okay, well, we’re kind of pushing 50. Probably, you know, but you think you always have more time.
Greg Barnsdale
00:34:00 – 00:34:01
Yes.
Victoria Volk
00:34:01 – 00:34:03
I think you always have more time.
Greg Barnsdale
00:34:04 – 00:34:56
I said that phrase a number of times to people, and we got a chuckle out of it as my craniotomy, my brain surgery was approaching and I was you know trying to get making sure all of my beneficiary designations were up to date on my insurance policies and pre-arranging for my cremation to take place with a buddy of mine who runs a crematorium and all those things to make it easier for my family and I jokingly said to a few people as my surgery was getting closer and closer, you know, hoping that I would survive it. Most people do survive these craniotomies these days, but it’s still rather, concerning when you’re the one going under the knife. Right? So I wanted to make sure that my affairs were truly in order, and I was so happy that I had them all in place. You know, I had to tweak things a little bit, but I would jokingly say to people, I thought I had more time.
Victoria Volk
00:34:56 – 00:34:56
Mhmm.
Greg Barnsdale
00:34:56 – 00:35:10
And it it’s so very true. We all think that. Right? We think, as I say in the book, we’re so many people just are wanting to avoid this, and they just make the assumption everything will be fine.
Greg Barnsdale
00:35:10 – 00:35:19
I’m gonna be here tomorrow. I don’t need a will anytime soon. I don’t need the life insurance anytime soon. I’m gonna be fine. It’s we need to do this now.
Victoria Volk
00:35:20 – 00:36:13
I’ve always wondered why you know, when it comes to your health, it’s like, why does it always take like a heart attack or you know, this health scare or something to like, wake people up to actually give a damn about their bodies and the one, you know, meat suit that they’re given in this life. And then, but also to, I can say that with this, it’s like, you know, you always think you have more time. What does it take for us to get our act together and put these affairs in order and make sure that we’re making it as easy as possible for those who are left behind, regardless if we’re 40 or 70, or 80, or 90. And, you know, and people, you know, if you live that long, then people say, Oh, you they lived such a long life, or they had a long life, or they had a good life. And I imagine people said that probably you heard stuff like that with your mom.
Victoria Volk
00:36:13 – 00:36:24
And it’s like, no, she probably had another good she could have lived another 10 years. You know, who knows? Yeah, I’m sure your mom thought it too. She always you know, you think you have more time.
Greg Barnsdale
00:36:24 – 00:36:24
Yeah.
Victoria Volk
00:36:24 – 00:36:44
And that’s just not. I mean, if the world has not proven to us enough through COVID, and just life itself and people that we know and the majillion bajillion scenarios that can happen. What’s it gonna take for us to wake up?
Greg Barnsdale
00:36:44 – 00:38:02
Well, you’re exactly right. The last 3 years with with COVID especially has really changed the world to a large degree and a large number of people actually decided to get their affairs in order through COVID because they saw how, how delicate life is and I think had a greater appreciation for it because it was so top of mind, especially during the height of the pandemic and who could have ever predicted that But when you come through the experiences that I have working directly with the dead picking up the dead arranging for the dead and also in the role of a financial advisor as a life insurance specialist inspiring people to set up the insurance that they need to make sure that their families will be properly taken care of based on their goals and objectives and all these sorts of things that’s really why I wrote this book to be honest with you. It’s a very brief conversation starter to get people thinking about communicating and the basics of funeral and cremation and burial planning and very basic information about estate planning and then the last chapter has to do with the medical directives and all of us are at risk of being incapacitated at some point. So it’s really just it doesn’t get into a lot of detail.
Greg Barnsdale
00:38:03 – 00:38:17
It’s really just targeted towards getting Canadians and Americans thinking about these the very fundamentals of getting moving with this and leaning on other people who can help, and there’s lots of them out there.
Victoria Volk
00:38:17 – 00:38:42
What is one piece of advice that through the passing of your mother and that experience and then your own health scare, like, what is one piece of advice? Because I’m sure there was obviously some grieving, obviously, with your mother, and maybe even to with, you know, your own health scare. Is, was there any grief that came up for you during that time? I mean, even after you knew it was not cancerous.
Greg Barnsdale
00:38:42 – 00:38:53
Well, for my mom, certainly. But in regards to my situation, Victoria, I guess there was. I I don’t know. It’s hard to say. It said I’ve been in and around death for so many years.
Greg Barnsdale
00:38:53 – 00:40:02
It was a wake up call for me, but as I said, it was a huge relief knowing that I had my affairs in order and as I stress in the book a lot the people who are forced to get planning these sorts of things when there is a health diagnosis which is not overly rosy like cancer as an example I’ve seen so many people try to organize what I call and many other people call it the same thing deathbed estate planning it’s rushed it’s inappropriate it’s extremely delicate well maybe inappropriate I should take that back but when someone is in a hospital bed and they’re and they’re not doing so well, we’re always, you know, bringing flowers and writing uplifting cards to get well soon and all those sorts of positive messages. The last thing that people typically want to talk about is you know , mom did you have where’s your will? Or dad did you want to be buried or cremated? You know, we don’t have those types of conversations with people when they’re in a hospital bed or to ask them if they wanna steal or a wooden casket.
Greg Barnsdale
00:40:03 – 00:40:15
That’s taboo. Right? People don’t do that. And I totally understand why they don’t want to. But that’s why it’s so vitally important that these conversations take place when times are normal.
Greg Barnsdale
00:40:15 – 00:40:18
Time is plentiful and minds are clear.
Victoria Volk
00:40:19 – 00:40:30
Thank you so much for bringing that up. That is actually a huge takeaway that I had from the end-of-life training that I had is that instead of having those conversations, even if you know, you have to have them.
Greg Barnsdale
00:40:30 – 00:40:30
yeah
Victoria Volk
00:40:30 – 00:40:51
And so instead of talking about fond memories, or having deeper conversations with your loved one, about things that you want them to know, or that you feel in your heart you need to share. Instead, you’re having to ask what color casket do you want? Where is your will?
Victoria Volk
00:40:51 – 00:40:54
You’re taking up that time for logistics?
Greg Barnsdale
00:40:55 – 00:40:56
Yes.
Victoria Volk
00:40:56 – 00:41:00
And things that, like you said, could have should have,
Greg Barnsdale
00:41:01 – 00:41:01
yeah
Victoria Volk
00:41:01 – 00:41:23
You know, and you get into that could have could have would have situation after the fact. And that’s the tragedy, I think, to have what you call deathbed estate planning
Greg Barnsdale
00:41:18 – 00:41:18
Yeah
Victoria Volk
00:41:18 – 00:41:23
is that time is spent not having the most loving, fruitful, meaningful conversations and honest conversations.
Greg Barnsdale
00:41:23 – 00:42:13
Yes, yeah. Yeah, that’s very true. And I think the best times, Victoria, to have these types of meaningful deeper conversations is when families are together you know I often think of Thanksgiving and how we it’s quite I think prevalent with a lot of people to get together at Thanksgiving and think talk to each other and so on about what they’re thankful for in their life well it wouldn’t that be a great time to maybe bring up the whole aspect of our legacy and our life and what we’re thankful for to have but what we’re thankful to leave as well and to set up our loved ones for success instead of bickering and fighting and all the turmoil that can take place if we don’t bring these these things up.
Victoria Volk
00:42:14 – 00:42:34
And that’s a great point too. It’s why not have those deeper conversations when we’re all coherent, when we’re all healthy, when we’re all together and make the most of that time. It’s it is not just about planning for your death. It’s living more intentional
Greg Barnsdale
00:42:33 – 00:42:33
Yes
Victoria Volk
00:42:33 – 00:42:34
in your life.
Greg Barnsdale
00:42:35 – 00:42:58
Yep. And that’s another part that I had realized as I was creating the manuscript, was that psychologists and various different articles within that community are so more frequently saying now than embracing our mortality, actually helps us live a more meaningful life and be in the in the present moment, and I think that is very true.
Victoria Volk
00:42:59 – 00:43:12
What has all of this taught you? All of your life experience, your grief, the industries in which you’ve worked. What has your grief in these areas taught you?
Greg Barnsdale
00:43:13 – 00:43:56
Appreciate every day you have. It can change quickly and I’m sure you know I’ve met a lot of people who have and this is kind of funny to say and I joke about it in my book I’ve met a lot of people who have died who I’m sure didn’t expect to die in that day, who probably who very who I’m sure thought that they had so much more time ahead of them, yet here they are at a funeral home or a mortuary, and now the family’s, having to deal with their death, and they, you know the deceased has no input in this. The time to have the input is when you can and that’s why I’m using the slogan now, plan while you can. And I think that that’s an appropriate phrase too.
Victoria Volk
00:43:56 – 00:44:16
Well, and for as individual, like, what have your say, I think that’s an important
Greg Barnsdale
00:44:16 – 00:44:16
Yeah.
Victoria Volk
00:43:16 – 00:44:19
perspective to share with people is do you wanna have a say?
Greg Barnsdale
00:44:19 – 00:44:19
Yeah.
Victoria Volk
00:44:19 – 00:44:24
And what happens with you when you’re if you’re hospitalized or after you die or in the process of dying and you can’t speak? And do you wanna have a say? I think a 100% of people would say a resounding yes.
Victoria Volk
00:44:25 – 00:44:26
And yet we don’t take
Greg Barnsdale
00:44:27 – 00:44:27
Yeah
Victoria Volk
00:44:28 – 00:44:30
We take 0 action. We take 0 action on that.
Greg Barnsdale
00:44:30 – 00:44:30
Yeah.
Victoria Volk
00:44:30 – 00:44:37
Yaeh. I think that’s the mind-blowing message here for people.
Greg Barnsdale
00:44:37 – 00:44:39
It is. Yes. Yep. Yep. I agree.
Greg Barnsdale
00:44:39 – 00:45:52
And you know what, Victoria? Over the last year and a half, roughly, I’ve been reaching out to a lot of people on LinkedIn who have similar who I’m assuming have similar interests from emergency room nurses to, lawyers to doctors, other financial planners and other funeral directors and even members of the faith community too about this message that I’m promoting. And I’ve told them, you know, ever since I published this book and I’ve been talking about and trying to create something that would really inspire a lot of people, and it took me a long time to really get to the point where I realized that writing a book would be a good way to do it. But the the support that I’m getting on this is actually quite strong, and it’s inspired me to start a movement, and I’m calling it the mortality mindset movement and maybe I’ve looked online I haven’t seen anybody else promoting quite this way but I’m hoping that more people get behind it but I’m referring to the mortality mindset movement where followers uphold their living legacy by becoming the best version of themselves and ultimately leave their last legacy as the best possible, And I think you had referenced that in my bio.
Victoria Volk
00:45:54 – 00:46:09
No. And I love that. And I have one I thought of another question. And so people listening to this, they might think, oh, well, it’s gonna take a lot to you know, I gotta hire this person to help me do all this. And, yes, I wanna do this, but where do, you know, where do I start?
Victoria Volk
00:46:09 – 00:46:19
And I know you mentioned in the book, it’s kind of like just kind of like an overview of all these different topics.
Greg Barnsdale
00:46:19 – 00:46:19
Yes
Victoria Volk
00:46:19 – 00:46:24
But for someone listening, like, can is this, like, a DIY thing? Like, can I, cause you know, I got this folder, and I got all these documents? Right?
Greg Barnsdale
00:46:24 – 00:46:24
Yeah
Victoria Volk
00:46:24 – 00:46:26
And I just need to sit down and do it, and I just haven’t done it.
Victoria Volk
00:46:27 – 00:46:48
Is it something that can be a DIY thing and then you just need it notarized or you need it just something like that? Or do you do you have to, in air quotes, have to? Or is it recommended that you go with an expert, estate planning, financial planner, like all these different pieces? What do you have to share about that?
Greg Barnsdale
00:46:48 – 00:48:10
You can see me shaking my head here. Yes, you can. It can be a DIY project, Victoria for people that have a straightforward situation. Again, something that I try to clearly explain within my book to help educate people about when they should go beyond that and perhaps speak to an Estate Planning Lawyer and perhaps a financial adviser and or an accountant. But I when I wrote the book, I wanted to keep it as straightforward as possible because it’s a tough subject in itself to even talk about so everybody’s situation is different but if someone is has a fairly straight forward type of lifestyle where they do not, they’re not paying child support they’re not paying spousal support they don’t have any business ownership issues they don’t own property in another jurisdiction another state or another country so their situation is fairly straightforward it can very much it can be a DIY project but it comes down to communicating with your family and researching somebody these things online to get to know how things can be set up properly but for those situations where somebody has ownership in a business they’re paying child support and they own a cabin or a cottage in another state or province or country or whatever, they should be seeing a lawyer.
Greg Barnsdale
00:48:11 – 00:48:24
And I know a lot of people are literally to engage a lawyer because of the perceived cost, But avoiding that can actually result in a higher cost after the death than if the person had have engaged lawyer in the first place.
Victoria Volk
00:48:25 – 00:49:00
As you explained and illustrated in that one story you shared where it cost him $50,000 you know, in 7 years of his life. And I imagined in that 7 years, it was a lot of stress and lost time at work and lost productivity and his life lost vacations or whatever. What is the, you know, it’s not just the financial cost, it’s the emotional cost of, you know, your physical self cost and everything else that probably went into that too. So thank you for making that distinction. And sharing that.
Victoria Volk
00:49:00 – 00:49:05
Is there anything else that you would like to share that you think is important that you didn’t get to share?
Greg Barnsdale
00:49:06 – 00:49:41
Boy, it’s, I think we’ve covered pretty well the bulk of what I’d like to say here, Victoria. But other than stressing the fact that anybody listening to this should really try to lean into this. I know it’s not easy, but you can also leverage opportunities when someone else, a friend or a family member happens to be sick or if someone’s been hospitalized or someone that , you know, they bring it up that someone, a friend or something has passed away. That’s a good time to bring up your situation and say well, you know, did you know that I have a will? Or do you know where I keep my will?
Greg Barnsdale
00:49:41 – 00:49:51
You know, if something happened to me, and then just get talking about these things with those that you love and care about so that they’re aware of what you’re thinking.
Victoria Volk
00:49:51 – 00:50:27
Every time someone who my family knows passes away, I asks a specific person where her and her husband would want to be buried if they have talked about that, if they had planned that yet, because, you know, religious affiliations change over time. People, you know, may not go to the same church or they might and this is kind of the situation. And then family is actually buried, you know, out of state and they’re somewhere else. And, you know, they might be out of state or somewhere else. And so every time this happens, I ask, have you talked about this?
Victoria Volk
00:50:27 – 00:50:39
Do you know what you’d want to do? Because I know, especially, you know, like their kids would be just overwhelmed with that whole thing. I just I know they would. And every time the answer is no. Don’t know.
Victoria Volk
00:50:39 – 00:50:46
Not sure. And, you know, so it’s like one of those things where it’s like arrggh, but then at the same time
Greg Barnsdale
00:50:46 – 00:50:47
Yeah.
Victoria Volk
00:50:47 – 00:51:04
I haven’t gotten my crap together either. So it’s like calling the kettle black, So I don’t push it too too hard. But, again, it’s just one of those things. Like, I like you said, that’s a great opportunity to bring it up and maybe just share what you would want. Maybe share what, you know, what you want to happen with you.
Victoria Volk
00:51:04 – 00:51:35
And, you know, for me personally, like, give my organs away. Like, I don’t need them. Like, what good are they to me? And I would rather them, you know, that’s the legacy that I would love to be able to give is life to somebody else like, wow, like, how many people you know, that’s an opportunity that I see it as an opportunity. And, you know, someone in my life is like, adamant that that’s, that’s no, but, you know, I made sure my husband, and it’s on my license, I’m a donor.
Victoria Volk
00:51:36 – 00:51:53
So, you know, it’s just that’s a small action people can take too. It’s you know, if you wanna donate your organs, put that on your driver’s license. You’re stating that that’s your wishes. And, I mean, that’s at least one small piece you can do right now, today. Change it on your driver’s license.
Greg Barnsdale
00:51:53 – 00:51:53
Yes.
Victoria Volk
00:51:53 – 00:51:54
That’s what you want.
Greg Barnsdale
00:51:54 – 00:53:07
And I think a lot of people, Victoria, don’t realize how needed organ donation really is and tissue and organs can actually be donated regardless of one’s age but the other point that I wanted to bring up that you had mentioned a few minutes ago was the fact about funerals and people being buried out of state. Here in Canada we’ve seen this trend for a number of years and I’m quite sure it’s also a prevalent trend in the US as well. Is that a growing number of people don’t see the value in a traditional funeral anymore and they’re opting for other types of ceremonies to take place which are much more casual perhaps in a legion or at a hall or something instead of a traditional 2 days of visitation in a church or a funeral home and then a funeral procession to a cemetery that just isn’t happening as much anymore we seldom see a funeral hearse on the road anymore here in Canada and I’m sure it’s the case there where you are too but if people don’t want to have a funeral it’s important that your family knows that.
Greg Barnsdale
00:53:08 – 00:53:30
If you want to be cremated or if you want to have your organs donated or any of those sorts of things unless those conversations are meaningfully had it’s going to cause stress at the time of the death and it’s so easy to resolve that just by being I guess, a little more courageous and having the conversations while the opportunity exists.
Victoria Volk
00:53:30 – 00:53:39
What are the topics that generally people avoid like the plague? Politics, religion, death. Right?
Greg Barnsdale
00:53:39 – 00:53:39
Yes.
Victoria Volk
00:53:39 – 00:54:07
And so you’re not telling people if you don’t want a funeral. You’re probably not telling people, oh, I’m not this religion anymore. I’m not this faith, or I’ve completely gone away from going to church. And this I’m choosing this other path, which is happening a lot more to a lot more people are leaving the church itself, regardless of what religious affiliation it is. And so that does change how you want to probably be buried and what kind of ceremony you’re wanting to have.
Victoria Volk
00:54:07 – 00:54:10
And again, you wanna have your say.
Greg Barnsdale
00:54:11 – 00:54:11
Yeah.
Victoria Volk
00:54:11 – 00:54:22
You can’t have it after you’re dead, so you might wanna have those conversations as soon as possible because as we’ve talked about on this podcast, you don’t know how much time you have.
Greg Barnsdale
00:54:22 – 00:54:23
Yeah.
Victoria Volk
00:54:23 – 00:54:54
You think you have more time, but that’s not necessarily the case. And now that we’ve depressed everybody with that sobering thought, which I hope just prompts people to action. That’s really what this you know, why I wanted to have you on is to share your story and also to, you know, maybe light a fire under all of our butts to get our act together. And so thank you so much for sharing, your wisdom and your knowledge with us today. And where can people find your book?
Greg Barnsdale
00:54:55 – 00:55:16
The easiest place to find my book is through my website donotignoreyourmortality.com and on all the pages are reminders as to where people can buy it. But it’s available on Amazon, Barnes and Noble. It’s available in physical paperback form, audiobook and ebook and in all the major retailers.
Victoria Volk
00:55:18 – 00:55:25
Amazing. And thank you again for being here. Is there anything else you would like to share? Where can people where are you on social? Are you on social media at all?
Greg Barnsdale
00:55:25 – 00:56:37
Yes. Yes. I am that actually this was another quick interesting point that I’ll briefly mention to you 2 days before my brain surgery my stepdaughter says to me Greg we should take that video that you recorded just after you told mom you had a brain tumor the Celine Dion moment I went out to the truck we were gonna go to the mall to pick up whatever to kind of clear our minds after I told her I had a brain tumor and both of us assumed it was terminal because it was Monday morning, remember, that she was going to come with me to see this ear nose and throat specialist where he said don’t worry about it, Greg, it’s likely an acoustic neuroma and it’s non-cancerous. So that relieved us immensely. But on that Saturday morning about, I don’t know, half an hour or an hour after I told her I thought sitting in the truck waiting for her to come out I would do a little recording on my iPhone not knowing if I would ever share it so I just explained I just told my wife that I had a brain tumor and if it’s cancerous I’ve got some very serious decisions to make and that’s really all I said it was very brief so that’s what my stepdaughter wanted to put on TikTok and we did and it blew up It’s now been viewed over 1,700,000 times.
Victoria Volk
00:56:37 – 00:57:00
Wow. I don’t have TikTok, but my daughter does, and she’s always showing me different things on there. But, yeah, I mean and that’s a great way to get your this message out. I mean, if people are listening to that, I imagine they’re wanna follow-up and hear how your story played out. And did that give you some traction in sharing this message?
Greg Barnsdale
00:57:00 – 00:57:38
Well, it did. It didn’t result in a lot of, book sales, but it resulted in a lot of a fair amount of attention. And I’ve added some other videos that that a whole supplement, this whole message of mine and I’m on all the other major platforms as well but on TikTok my handle or name is author mortality and anybody will see Greg Barnsdale on there in the various videos but yes I’m on LinkedIn I’m on YouTube and Facebook etcetera and if so if anybody does a search for do not ignore your mortality and my name Greg Barnsdale that they’ll see me.
Victoria Volk
00:57:39 – 00:57:42
And I will put the links in the show notes for people to get to connect with you as well.
Greg Barnsdale
00:57:42 – 00:57:42
Thank you.
Victoria Volk
00:57:42 – 00:58:08
And thank you so much for your time today and sharing. I enjoyed this conversation and I, the one action I will do today, I will do this today, I will take out my folder with all of my documents, which is in the safe, and I will take it out as a reminder to myself to get crack a lacking.
Greg Barnsdale
00:58:09 – 00:58:10
Good. Good for you.
Victoria Volk
00:58:10 – 00:58:13
Thank you for lighting the fire under my butt today.
Greg Barnsdale
00:58:14 – 00:58:16
You’re welcome. Thanks for having me.
Victoria Volk
00:58:16 – 00:58:21
And remember, when you unleash your heart, you unleash your life. Much love.
Childhood Grief, Educational, Grieving Voices Guest, Life with Human Design, Parenting, Pespective |
SHOW NOTES SUMMARY:
Are you ready to embark on a journey that could transform your understanding of purpose, parenting, and personal healing?
This week on Grieving Voices, I welcomed Alexandra Cole, a former corporate consultant turned human design coach. After a decade in the Fortune 500 sector, Alexandra pivoted to guiding individuals and families in finding their purpose through human design—a system that combines astrology, I Ching, Kabbalah, and the chakras.
Born in London and raised in Amsterdam with an education from Princeton University, she now resides in Santa Barbara with her husband and young son. Her journey into motherhood inspired “Thriving by Design,” a toolkit designed for parents to understand their child’s unique traits.
Alexandra shares her personal story of loss—losing her mother at age ten—and how it shaped her emotional world. She explains how understanding one’s own human design can be instrumental during grief and aiding parents to align better with their children’s innate designs.
She discusses the five energy types within human design: Manifestors (initiators), Projectors (guides), Generators, & Manifesting Generators (consistent workers who need joy-based work). Each type has different ways of investing energy for fulfillment and purpose. The conversation also delves into parenting aligned with your child’s energy type—such important information and particularly helpful when parenting grieving children.
This insightful discussion highlights how embracing our inherent nature according to our human design can lead us toward more authentic and aligned lives.
If you’re curious about how your unique blueprint can shape your way forward—in joyous times or challenging ones—I encourage you to learn your human design and listen to this episode because sometimes the most authentic path is the one that is tailor-made just for us.
RESOURCES:
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CONNECT WITH VICTORIA:
Unlocking the Power of Human Design in Grieving, Parenting, and Self-Discovery
In today’s fast-paced world, where change is constant and life often throws us curveballs, understanding ourselves and our loved ones can sometimes feel like deciphering an enigmatic puzzle. But what if there was a blueprint—a design—that could help us navigate these complexities with greater ease? Enter Human Design, a revolutionary system that combines ancient wisdom with modern science to offer profound insights into our personalities.
Recently on Grieving Voices, we had the pleasure of hosting Alexandra Cole—once a corporate consultant for Fortune 500 companies who has now found her calling as a human design coach. With her international background and diverse experiences shaping her approach to coaching, she shared how human design has become an invaluable tool for personal growth during grief, enhancing parenting techniques, and managing life’s myriad challenges.
The Transformation Journey: From Corporate Consulting to Human Design
Alexandra’s journey from advising corporations to coaching individuals speaks volumes about the transformative power of purpose. Her work through “Thriving by Design” demonstrates how aligning one’s career with their inner calling can lead not only to personal fulfillment but also make significant impacts on others’ lives.
Understanding Ourselves Through Grief
Grief is unique to every individual; it shapes itself around each person’s energy type. Alexandra emphasizes that knowing your human design can reveal personalized paths for healing when you’re navigating loss or adversity. For example:
– **Manifestors** may need solitude to initiate their own grieving process.
– **Projectors** might seek deep understanding before they can find closure.
– **Generators** require activities that reignite their spark amidst sorrow.
– **Manifesting Generators**, much like generators but with added complexity due to their multifaceted nature.
– Lastly,** Reflectors**, whose sensitivity means they deeply mirror those around them—and thus may absorb collective grief which needs careful navigation.
By recognizing these patterns within ourselves based on our energy types in times of mourning or crisis—we allow space for compassion towards self-healing journeys tailored just right for us.
Parental Guidance Enhanced by Human Design
Parenting is arguably one of life’s most challenging yet rewarding roles—and here too human design offers remarkable guidance. By acknowledging each child’s unique energy type (be it Manifestor or Reflector), parents are better equipped at fostering environments where children thrive authentically rather than conforming them into ill-fitting societal molds.
For instance:
– Encourage your child when you see them light up doing something they love—this physical response signals alignment with their true nature.
– Recognize that while Generators have abundant energy reserves—they must be wary not becoming ‘yes people’, overcommitting themselves away from joyous pursuits
– Understand Reflectors’ need for supportive surroundings given their heightened sensitivities reflecting back the health—or dis-ease—of communities around them
This knowledge doesn’t just cultivate healthier relationships between parent-child dynamics; it paves the way toward nurturing well-rounded individuals grounded in self-awareness from early stages onward.
Better Relationships Through Energetic Understanding
Human design isn’t limited solely to introspection—it extends outwardly enrichening relational dynamics too! Partnerships benefit immensely when both parties respect differing energetic requirements (imagine respecting your partner’s need for dynamic mornings versus quiet evenings). This framework fosters deeper empathy & effective communication leading towards harmonious co-existence amid diversity in temperaments & preferences alike!
Resources at Your Fingertips
Alexandra provides multiple avenues through which anyone interested can delve further into this transformative field:
1) Personal sessions via alexandracole.com
2) Wellness products including customized reports at thrivingbydesign.com
3) Her book “The Purpose Playbook”, guides readers towards living out authentic purposes
These resources serve as tools aiding one along paths whether seeking solace during grief-stricken times or simply aspiring towards more aligned living overall – all underscored by honoring inherent uniqueness above external expectations thrust upon us!
As we wrapped up our conversation filled with gratitude & enlightenment —it became clear why nurturing individuality holds paramount importance across facets ranging from parenting strategies down even unto embracing personal narratives woven uniquely within tapestries called ‘life’.
To live authentically—isn’t just sound advice—it’s foundational ethos empowering thriving existences no matter what storms come ashore!
Episode Transcription:
Victoria Volk
00:00:00 – 00:00:27
Thank you so much for tuning in to grieving voices. I’m very excited to, bring a guest. We haven’t had a guest in a little while here on the podcast. And today, Alexandra Cole is joining me. She is a former corporate consultant turned human design coach after a decade of helping fortune 500 identify and articulate their why she pivoted to help individuals, families, and couples do the same.
Victoria Volk
00:00:27 – 00:01:18
She uses human design as a tool to help her clients pursue their purpose with more clarity and confidence. Alexander is passionate about translating insights from her clients, human design charts into actionable strategies for optimizing their relationships, well-being, careers, finances, and family life. She was born in London, raised in Amsterdam, educated at Princeton University, and now lives in Santa Barbara, California with her husband and 2 year old son. Becoming a mother inspired her to create thriving by design, a collection of tools, cheat sheets, and online courses designed to give parents insight into their child’s unique sensitivities, preferences, and gifts, as well as tactical tips for how to support them. Alexandra is happiest when moving her body, eating good food, exploring new places, and in deep conversation with new or old friends.
Victoria Volk
00:01:19 – 00:01:35
I love that. I love deep conversation too. And I love human design, and I honestly can’t even remember how I got into your sphere, but I did. And you share the same name as my middle Alexandra. I love the name.
Victoria Volk
00:01:35 – 00:01:53
Beautiful name. But there was something I found interesting when I was looking into, I don’t know, I opened an email, then you you know, you get down a rabbit hole. And then I found your wellness. The wellness design report or well by well by design report. And that’s how we kind of connected.
Victoria Volk
00:01:53 – 00:02:30
And I’m just thinking, like, gosh, this would be a really good topic for to bring on the podcast for people, especially particularly grievers who, you know, sometimes you just don’t know what you need. And this well by design report can be a good place to start. Like, if I just wanna feel better, how can I feel better that is aligned with who I am and how I was created and how I was made? Right? And, and I absolutely love also the idea of arming parents with information and knowledge to help them be let’s see.
Victoria Volk
00:02:30 – 00:02:37
What’s the word I wanna use? A more aligned parent for their child.
Alexandra Cole
00:02:32 – 00:02:32
Yeah. 100%
Victoria Volk
00:02:33 – 00:02:37
Based on their child’s design. Right?
Alexandra Cole
00:02:37 – 00:02:37
Mhmm.
Victoria Volk
00:02:38 – 00:03:00
Because if youngest is 15, if I would have known what I know now about human design, about my own design, about my kids, All 3 of them are manifesting generators. I’m a manifester. Like, I was exhausted. Like, motherhood, like, totally exhausted me to the point where, like, you can question, like, oh my god.
Victoria Volk
00:03:00 – 00:03:02
What did I sign up for?
Alexandra Cole
00:03:03 – 00:03:12
I can only imagine. I have one little manifesting generator, and that’s already a lot. I can’t imagine having 3 of them running around.
Victoria Volk
00:03:12 – 00:03:16
And they’re all, like, the first 2 or 18 months apart and the yeah.
Alexandra Cole
00:03:16 – 00:03:16
Wow.
Victoria Volk
00:03:16 – 00:03:20
Yeah. I had 3 under in 5 under 5 years. So
Alexandra Cole
00:03:20 – 00:04:21
That’s impressive. Especially as a manifester, that is incredibly impressive. And, I mean, I would also say too, from a grief perspective, I think both of us lost a parent very young in life. And if I had understood my design better or if, God forbid, anything like that ever happens in my immediate family, having human design as a tool to just better understand a child’s emotional world and how they’re designed to navigate these types of major traumas and just life changing events, especially when it comes to kind of your environment and how that shifts. It allows you to show up in a much more kind of supportive way for that child because you know exactly kind of what their patterning is and how to, yes, align with that and support that in how you are tending to them and caring for them.
Victoria Volk
00:04:21 – 00:04:39
I really wanna get to your story in how you got to where you are in with human design and how this all came to be. And so would you please take us back in time and to that loss and how like, what transpired in the in between?
Alexandra Cole
00:04:40 – 00:05:22
Oh, man. That loss was early on and probably well before, obviously, human design even was at all in my kind of frame of reference, but I lost my mom to breast cancer at age 10. I’m the oldest of 3 kids, and at the time, we were living in the Netherlands. And my dad did an incredible job of kind of stepping in and trying to play Mom and Dad, we were surrounded by an incredible support system. So all things considered, I look back and can only feel grateful in a way for having experienced it in the way that I did.
Alexandra Cole
00:05:22 – 00:06:25
But nonetheless, right, at 10 years old, experiencing such a huge loss, especially as the eldest child, I think, forced me to grow up very very quickly and forced me to kind of grapple with some of these, like, bigger life questions, a lot earlier on than the average 10 year old, let’s say. So I think I was quite a mature teenager in terms of my life experience, but also kind of, like, my way of connecting and understanding others. And especially when it came to my emotional world, I was very aware of all the emotions I was feeling. I just didn’t necessarily feel like it was appropriate for me to express those anymore because I wanted to be strong for my family. So for a good 8 years, I shut down my own kind of emotional response and probably a huge part of that grieving process.
Alexandra Cole
00:06:26 – 00:07:01
Until fast forward at 18, I moved from the Netherlands to the United States, and my mom had actually studied in the United States. So it was kind of a little bit of, like, following in her footsteps. And I get here, and within the 1st year, I fall madly in love with this American man. And it was the first time since losing my mom that I had this huge fear of losing this individual and the impact that that might have. And it kind of actually opened the door for me to experience grief because I was, 1, I think, far enough removed from my family where I felt like I could do that.
Alexandra Cole
00:07:01 – 00:07:55
And 2, I had this trigger of someone I cared so deeply about, and the thought of losing him was, like, such a kind of miserable like, the the pain was, like, so great associated with that that I allowed myself to finally grieve, and I think I cried. Like, basically, I made up for those 8 years of not shedding a tear. And this poor man, who I’m now married to, so I can I can say this? Like, he was incredible, but he probably didn’t understand everything that I was kind of processing and going through at the moment itself. Anyway, fast forward a few years, I graduated college and picked the path of least resistance in the sense that I very much went down the road that I felt like everyone expected me to and that I felt pressured to in a way, which was a very kind of corporate path in management consulting.
Alexandra Cole
00:07:56 – 00:08:29
And I kinda had most of my life planned out. I was a very kind of a logical, rational thinker when it came to kind of where I thought I was heading. And maybe that was also part of all of those years of kind of shutting down that emotional world even though my emotions, especially according to human design, are my most trustworthy inner compass. I just wasn’t listening to them. A few years into that career, a friend of mine asked me to help her brainstorm a new business idea that she had.
Alexandra Cole
00:08:30 – 00:09:09
And I would meet with her before work. I would meet with her after work, and I was doing 12 to 16 hour days. So this was like a commitment to meet with her, but I became so passionate about what it was that she was working on to the point that she eventually asked me to leave my job and cofound this company with her. And I think I thought about it for maybe a few days and felt this full body just yes in response to it. It was a complete conviction that this was what I was meant to do, and it came from this place of genuine excitement and passion.
Alexandra Cole
00:09:10 – 00:09:28
And it was such a departure from how I had lived my life before, which was very much kind of like, mind oriented that the fact and I did. I ended up leaving my job, starting this company with her, and we had no clients. We had no track record. We had no funding. We had no experience.
Alexandra Cole
00:09:28 – 00:10:07
Nothing. We made it all work, but it was a few months after that that I reflected on this this leap and how I was able to make it with so much confidence and conviction when really there was, you know, no logical reason to do so. And it set me on this path of self development, trying to better understand what that was inside of me and why I finally allowed that to make the decision instead of the kind of rational brain. And that’s what ultimately led me to discover human design, which told me, like, hey. Listen.
Alexandra Cole
00:10:07 – 00:10:52
You’re actually here to listen to your gut, to listen to your emotions. And the more I started leaning into that, the more myself I felt. Like, I had I realized that for those past, like, 10, 12 years, I had been kind of a you know, trying again to live up to this expectation that I thought other people had of me, of who I needed to be for them in that moment, and had lost the essence of who I was along the way. And so that’s really what human design allowed me to do. And after several years of just kind of using it to heal myself and to allow myself to grieve in many ways, I started using it with other people, friends and family at first.
Alexandra Cole
00:10:52 – 00:11:14
And over the course of a few years, it kind of blossomed into this side hustle and then something more than a side hustle. And now here I am working with clients every day, helping them better understand, you know, the most aligned use of their energy and how to become a more authentic version of themselves.
Victoria Volk
00:11:15 – 00:11:56
I’m curious too for you. I’m sure I already know the answer. But what if what human design has helped me to is to better understand the environment in which I lived with the people that I shared it with. Right? So for instance, especially a parent, you know, if you don’t have their exact details, you know, birthplace and things like that, it can be a little difficult, but what did that give you when you, when you started to learn more about human design and, and for being so young and losing your mother, did it help you to really get to know her in a way that you couldn’t because she’d passed, you know, through her human design?
Alexandra Cole
00:11:57 – 00:12:06
Such a good question. Yes. It did really help me with that. And, also, it helped me see certain parts of myself that I share with her. Right?
Alexandra Cole
00:12:06 – 00:12:47
And also understand why certain aspects of her are so memorable to me and other parts, you know, you it’s it’s hard for you to understand unless someone else kinda tells a story and you’re like, like, oh, right. I guess she was like that too. One thing that human design really helped me understand, though, is the fact that so my dad is also an emotional. He’s an emotional manifesting generator, and my brother and sister are non emotionals. And so for people who aren’t familiar with human design, what this means is that both my dad and I experience the world first and foremost through our own emotional lens.
Alexandra Cole
00:12:47 – 00:13:34
Like, we have this inherent emotional bias about how we are experiencing everything around us. And we feel our own emotions first and foremost, and they’re very much supposed to inform how we operate. My brother and sister, they feel other people’s emotions first and foremost. So their kind of experience of the world is more shaped by other people’s emotions, and they sometimes have a harder time distinguishing where they end and where someone else begins. And I think with if you think about our kind of family unit, obviously, my dad is going through an insurmountable amount of grief and was making a concerted effort to actually share that grief with us.
Alexandra Cole
00:13:34 – 00:13:43
Right? He took the approach of, I wanna be open with my kids. I wanna talk about how sad I am. Right? And so he did that.
Alexandra Cole
00:13:44 – 00:14:09
But because both my brother and sister are open emotions, they were incredibly sensitive to that. So they picked up on everything and then started kind of absorbing it and carrying that weight. And I think as a 10 year old, I intuitively saw that and decided, you know, there’s not there’s no space for another emotional in this family. Right? Like, I can’t do that same thing.
Alexandra Cole
00:14:09 – 00:15:00
So I’m just gonna kind of, like, shut mine down so that my dad can have that space and we can kind of all absorb or at least maybe even with my siblings. Like, I’m gonna try and shield them from my dad’s emotions, right, instead of add to that kind of, like, fire hose effect. Like, recognizing that and the role that made forced me to play has been really helpful, not just in kind of making sense of kind of my journey, but also making sense in my relationship with my dad and why certain things that he does trigger me so much. Right? And so I think those that, especially in these past kind of 5 years in becoming a mom, I’ve reflected on this a lot, and human design has definitely been, invaluable in that process.
Victoria Volk
00:15:02 – 00:15:05
And how has that shaped how you parent your son?
Alexandra Cole
00:15:05 – 00:15:37
So my son is also an emotional, and my husband is a nonemotional. So I think just knowing what I know about human design, the biggest takeaway here is that kids, a lot of it is nature. Right? They come into this world with a certain set of patterns and behaviors and sensitivities. And as parents, there’s this tendency to want to kind of manage and control that.
Alexandra Cole
00:15:37 – 00:15:55
And we think that’s that we’re protecting them in a way. Right? We think we’re we’re setting them up for success. But, really, what I’ve learned is that the best thing you can do as a parent is kind of do less. Like, step back and allow them to kind of grow into that little human they’re designed to be.
Alexandra Cole
00:15:55 – 00:16:40
And having their human design chart makes that much easier because you can kind of see, oh, wait. Actually, they’re living their design because especially when who they’re designed to be might be different from you or opposite from you in terms of how their emotions work or how they’re designed to communicate or make decisions. We only know what we know and we look at the world again through that kind of, like, biased lens. And so when you’re raising a child, it’s really hard to let go of that, and human design has allowed me to do that. So, for example, when my son has an emotional reaction to something, and he’s a very emotional child because his first reaction is always gonna be this, like, big emotional outburst.
Alexandra Cole
00:16:40 – 00:16:48
My husband’s response to that typically is, you’re okay. You’re okay. You’re okay. There’s no need cry. No tears.
Alexandra Cole
00:16:48 – 00:17:10
No tears. Right? Like, that’s just because he is not emotional, so he doesn’t understand the significance of allowing yourself to kind of feel those feelings. I, on the other hand, and now I’ve also, you know, not trained, but coached my husband to respond in a similar way, I will just give my son a big hug and say, let it out. Let’s ride this emotional wave together.
Alexandra Cole
00:17:10 – 00:17:34
Right? Like, tell me what you’re feeling. Tell me what happened. Right? And I don’t ever try to shut that down because I know that this if I start to kind of manipulate his emotional experience, he is gonna lose it’s like losing a limb, right, for him because it’s such an important way of how he is designed to make sense of the world.
Alexandra Cole
00:17:35 – 00:17:50
And if he doesn’t feel like he can trust it or he feels like it’s wrong to respond emotionally, he’s gonna do what I did for 8 years and pay the price. So that’s just one small example of how I’m using this as a parent.
Victoria Volk
00:17:50 – 00:17:57
And when it comes to grief, that is a massively important example. Massively.
Alexandra Cole
00:17:57 – 00:17:57
Yes. Yeah
Victoria Volk
00:17:58 – 00:18:15
And if you if your child is a manifester, good luck to you. Oh. I know. You know, I’ve learned, like, I was probably just an some sort of enigma to my mother. Like but you know what?
Victoria Volk
00:18:15 – 00:18:23
I learned that my mother was is a projector, which I was like, woah. That makes sense.
Alexandra Cole
00:18:24 – 00:18:47
Yeah. That makes so much sense. And that’s one of the things that I love about human design is it does give it allows you to see other people in a much more objective way, where you can start to understand, oh, this is why I must have been so challenging for my mom. Right? And it is just it doesn’t excuse any behavior.
Alexandra Cole
00:18:47 – 00:19:25
It just gives you a different lens through which to kind of witness and observe and see the things that happened, because, yeah, as a manifester, right, part of what you’re here to do is to trigger people, like, in a way. Right? Like, you are here to challenge people. And sometimes that can feel really uncomfortable. And if as a parent, you’re not cut out for that or you don’t know how to handle that and you’re not aware of where that’s coming from, it can be really challenging.
Alexandra Cole
00:19:25 – 00:19:41
And she would just have wanted to kind of shut your manifesting tendencies down. Right? Or in an effort to protect you, she’s like, you can’t be this big. I need to, like, I need to limit this person. I need to kind of, like, you know, encourage them to control it.
Alexandra Cole
00:19:42 – 00:19:52
Exactly. Exactly. When, really, what a manifester kid needs to be able to do is, like, do their thing. And with complete freedom, throw a tantrum. Right?
Alexandra Cole
00:19:52 – 00:20:12
Like, let it out, get angry, and move on. But if you tell them, like, you can’t do that, that’s not appropriate, That manifestor is gonna grow up to be a shell of who they actually could be. Because, again, they don’t trust any of those, like, inner voices that are communicating to them constantly or trying to.
Victoria Volk
00:20:13 – 00:20:27
Amen to that. I can tell you wholeheartedly. Because I first discovered human design, like, a little over a year ago.
Alexandra Cole
00:20:20 – 00:20:20
Wow!
Victoria Volk
00:20:20 – 00:20:26
So it has been like yeah.
Alexandra Cole
00:20:27 – 00:20:27
Yeah.
Victoria Volk
00:20:27 – 00:20:53
Mind blowing. So since we’re on this topic, can you quickly run down do a rundown of, like, the child You describe the child manifestor because that’s what I am. But can you quickly just kinda describe the other types, energy types.
Alexandra Cole
00:20:40 – 00:20:40
Yeah.
Victoria Volk
00:20:40 – 00:20:53
Children, for people who are listening, who may feel like there’s I I think this can help with conflict within parent child dynamics. So I think it’s I’m glad the conversation went here.
Victoria Volk
00:20:53 – 00:20:53
So.
Alexandra Cole
00:20:54 – 00:21:20
Absolutely. And as I describe it too, this also applies to adults, and to inner children. Like, a lot of the time when I talk about when I, you know, share content through that parenting lens, I get responses from people that say, you know, this helped me so much to heal my inner child Mhmm. And trauma that I experienced as a kid, just understanding what that, like, little version of me must have been experiencing in that moment. So there’s 5 energy types.
Alexandra Cole
00:21:20 – 00:22:13
And just kind of at a very high level, this whole system, human design, essentially, it’s based on your birth time date and place and the energetic frequency that was present in the exact moment you took your first breath. And you wanna imagine it’s like you were imprinted with this energetic frequency. And the chart itself is like that, like, blueprint to how your energy is designed to operate in the most authentic and the most effortless way. Right? Like, when you are listening to that blueprint and operating in alignment with it, there’s this element of flow to life where you’re still gonna encounter challenging situations, but you’ll move through them with a sense of confidence and conviction and trust in your own kind of inner authority to be able to overcome those things.
Alexandra Cole
00:22:14 – 00:23:12
So the foundation of this system is something that we call an energy type, and I often describe it as, like, the outer layer of the onion where there are so many more nuanced layers to the system that get into an incredible amount of detail in terms of, you know, how you’re designed to eat, the types of environments that are most supportive for you, how you’re designed to communicate and emote and all those things. But the first piece to understand is your energy type. There’s 5 different energy types, and each type has a slightly different way of investing energy in order to get the greatest return on that investment in terms of fulfillment and purpose and reward. So we talked about the manifestor and the manifestor little kid. Manifestors, their energy is designed to be quite extreme in terms of highs and lows.
Alexandra Cole
00:23:12 – 00:23:55
Like, they’ll have these, like, huge creative emotional bursts where literally they can go for days on this, like, energetic high, and then it’ll come crashing down and they will need to rest, reset, recharge. But, ultimately, that’s because manifestor’s role in this world is to initiate, to create things, to challenge that status quo and initiate newness and novelty. And so you need a lot of, like, powerful energy to do that, and you also need to not give a damn about everyone else around you. And that’s that triggering piece that I was talking about. And that’s why when you meet a little manifestor kid, they’re just off doing their thing.
Alexandra Cole
00:23:55 – 00:24:04
Right? Like, they get this urge. They need to, you know, dig a hole in the garden. And they just grab the shovel, and they just start digging. Right?
Alexandra Cole
00:24:04 – 00:24:27
They’re not here to ask for permission. They’re not here to look for validation. They’re just here to follow those urges and convictions. And as a parent, again, that can be really triggering because we’re told we have to control our kids, and our kids’ behavior is a reflection on us. And so when that kid just grabs that shovel without asking and starts digging, your immediate reaction is, hey.
Alexandra Cole
00:24:27 – 00:24:54
You didn’t you didn’t ask me. We can’t just do that. Right? And so you can imagine how that leads to a lot of pressure and conditioning for that child to not be themselves and to adapt and adjust. And suddenly, these manifestors start to ask for permission and look for validation, which prevents them from starting the magical movements and things that they are supposed to.
Alexandra Cole
00:24:54 – 00:25:37
So that’s the manifestor kit. Then the second kind of, group I’d like to talk about are projectors. So projectors make up about 20% of the population, and projectors are very much the kind of guides. So if manifestors are here to kind of initiate and be the spark, Projectors are here to refine and guide and optimize. And so projectors actually have a much more moderate ebb and flow of energy, and they are really most effective when they can focus on one thing at a time and dedicate themselves to something for a short intense burst of time, and then they too need to kind of rest and reset.
Alexandra Cole
00:25:37 – 00:26:15
So projector kids are the types of kids that, one, are gonna be fascinated by how things work and kind of optimizing or understanding how to, kind of improve or better something. Like, they love fixing and solving things. And they’re gonna be able to kind of sit quietly working on a puzzle or with some type of toy for that, like, kind of short intense burst of time. And then they’re going to need to kind of rest their mind and sit back and almost observe. Right?
Alexandra Cole
00:26:15 – 00:26:50
There’s a there’s a lot of power for a projector in just being free to observe instead of there being pressure to actually create or output. Projectors sometimes, though, because they have that ability to see how something can be done better, they can come across as quite critical. And if they tend to kind of share their insights and observations without being invited to do so, it can come across as a little bit of a, like, know it all. Right? Or, again, overly, like, a glass half-empty kind of thing.
Alexandra Cole
00:26:50 – 00:27:44
And so for projectors, the name of the game is really learning to wait for that invitation, to wait to be recognized, to wait to be acknowledged, to wait for someone to kind of celebrate your ability to problem solve or your natural gifts that all projectors have and kind of invite you to share those. So if you have a projector child, really being mindful that, like, all they want is for you to see them clearly and for you to invite them to share their gifts. They’re not here to go and initiate in the same way that manifestors are. They’re really here to be a little bit more passive until you invite them in. And they also are gonna need a lot of alone time, and they are going to do best when they have your 1 on 1 attention as opposed to, you know, bigger groups of people, which can be quite overwhelming for that projector initially.
Alexandra Cole
00:27:44 – 00:28:34
Now we get to the largest cohort of people, and that is the generators and the manifesting generators. So these two groups together make up about 70% of the population, and that’s because this group’s energy is very consistent. These generators and manifesting generators are here to almost act as, like, the motors of society in the sense that they have this ability to apply themselves in a very consistent, persistent way to things. And they don’t have that ebb and flow as much as the manifestors and the projectors do. Now for generators and manifesting generators, it’s really important that they are applying that energy to think that excitement excite them and bring them joy.
Alexandra Cole
00:28:34 – 00:29:01
So for them, it’s a really kind of physical response that they will feel towards something. Even, you know, if you have a generator, a manifesting generator child, pay attention to what their body does when they are loving what they’re doing. Right? Whether it’s they’re eating their favorite food and you hear them just go, like, mmm, they, like, start making noises. Or my son, when he’s doing something that he really enjoys, he starts to rock back and forth.
Alexandra Cole
00:29:01 – 00:29:28
Right? Or he does this, like, happy dance. It’s a very physical response. And so as a parent, pay attention to where what gives your kids that physical response because that’s a clear telltale sign that they’re meant to do more of it, that it’s a great use of their time and energy. When generators and manifesting generators are forced to do things that don’t really excite them or light them up, it’ll be quite draining.
Alexandra Cole
00:29:28 – 00:30:35
But because they have that consistent source of energy, they don’t necessarily hit that point of burnout like a manifestor or a projector will. And so what’s really hard is that most adult generators and manifesting generators have been conditioned to basically be these martyrs that say yes to every request, do a lot of stuff for other people because it makes that other person happy, and they happen to have the energetic capacity to do so. But they’ve lost touch with what actually brings them joy and what excites them. And so they’re operating at, you know, 50 to 60% of their full potential, and that full potential can only be accessed when they prioritize their own joy and excitement. And so as a parent of a young generator and manifesting generator, helping them recognize that, helping them realize that, like, they don’t have to say yes to doing what other people want them to do, and it is completely valid to prioritize their own needs and what brings them joy, even over yours as the parent.
Alexandra Cole
00:30:35 – 00:31:11
Right? Like, that’s a really important lesson for them to learn. The slight difference between these two types is that whereas generators can be a little bit more focused in their application of energy, manifesting generators are nonlinear beings, and that they have a little bit of that manifestor erratic nature while they will move very quickly from one interest to the other, and they love a variety of things. And they’re like I mean, with my son, for example, I’ve learned to never clean up after him because I think he’s done. And I then, as the generator mom, I’m like, okay.
Alexandra Cole
00:31:11 – 00:31:34
I’m gonna start to organize and clean this up. But, actually, he wants to circle back to it an hour from now after he’s, like, pulled out another 5 other toys. Right? And when we’re on an airplane, I have to have, like, you know, 20 different activities versus if I had a projector child, maybe I just need 3 and he could play with each for an hour. My son needs to just, like, constantly cycle through things.
Alexandra Cole
00:31:35 – 00:32:16
So that’s the generator manifesting generator, and then the very last type is a reflector. And reflectors are just as the name suggests. They’re like these magical unicorn snowflake kids that are highly sensitive and really designed to reflect the health and well-being of whatever community that they are a part of. So they are the product of their environment in many ways, And a reflector is like a mirror. So, if you have a reflector in your family, looking at them and how they’re doing and how they’re showing up and what their health and well-being is like is going to tell you what’s going on with the rest of the family.
Alexandra Cole
00:32:17 – 00:32:44
Because they are constantly absorbing everyone else’s energy, emotions, fears. Right? All of that. And in a way, they are then reflecting that back to you. And so for reflector children, it’s really important for them to understand how to manage this hypersensitivity because it can really throw you.
Alexandra Cole
00:32:44 – 00:33:12
Right? Because you can be feeling totally good, and then one person walks into the room. Right? Or one kid comes to class that day and is dealing with something really, really and you don’t even know what it is, but you feel in your body suddenly this grief or pain or anger that isn’t yours, and yet you’re still experiencing it as if it is. And so that’s something that is a lot for a little child to handle.
Alexandra Cole
00:33:12 – 00:33:57
And you might notice that reflectors do get sick more frequently. They do feel overwhelmed a lot depending and they’re very sensitive to environment, people as well as just, like, the energy and the vibe of the setting that they’re in. So as a parent, the best thing that you can do with a Reflector Child is teach them that a lot of the time what they’re experiencing isn’t actually theirs to carry. Right? And, also, be super mindful of, like, what are the environments and people that they seem most at peace around, and how can I make sure we’re spending most of our time in those types of places and avoiding the people that seem to, like, have the greatest triggering effect on them?
Victoria Volk
00:33:58 – 00:33:59
That was a lot.
Alexandra Cole
00:33:59 – 00:33:59
I know.
Victoria Volk
00:34:00 – 00:34:00
Thank you so much.
Victoria Volk
00:34:00 – 00:34:15
No. In a good way. In a in a good way because I hope people listening can are reflecting on their own lives and take from what you shared and apply it. And, hopefully, they already know their body type or their energy type.
Alexandra Cole
00:34:15 – 00:34:16
Energy type.
Victoria Volk
00:34:16 – 00:34:38
Yep. And or have their design. Right? They know their design. And if you don’t, I’m gonna put a link in the show notes where you can find that information out and then come back and listen to this again and find your children’s human design and listen to this, like, 2 or 3 times if you have to really take in what was shared because I think it’s so important.
Victoria Volk
00:34:38 – 00:34:49
The stuff that we I can’t even imagine being a reflector. Like, that just sounds so exhausting to me. Do I even know a reflector? I don’t even know if I know a reflector.
Alexandra Cole
00:34:50 – 00:34:54
I mean, they’re 1 only 1% of the population. So it’s possible that you don’t.
Victoria Volk
00:34:54 – 00:34:57
Well, in manifestors are, like, 9%. Right?
Alexandra Cole
00:34:57 – 00:34:57
Mmm.Yup
Victoria Volk
00:34:57 – 00:35:08
So we’re kind of a rare breed too in a way, but no. Thank you so much for all of that. It’s just good for me. I’ve heard it, you know, I’ve heard it in other ways. And it’s when you hear it a different way, it’s just yeah.
Victoria Volk
00:35:08 – 00:35:27
I really love that. So thank you so much. I wanna go back to, like, your story though, and, like, how this all kind of played out, like, so with your relationship so when you first met your now husband, did you know his human design? Were you into human design? Not not at that time.
Victoria Volk
00:35:27 – 00:35:28
Not yet.
Alexandra Cole
00:35:28 – 00:35:30
Nope. Not yet at all.
Victoria Volk
00:35:30 – 00:35:30
Yeah.
Alexandra Cole
00:35:31 – 00:35:56
Yep. And it’s been I I often credit human design to, you know, the fact that we still have a thriving relationship now 16 years later. Because neither of us were really planning on meeting our person that young. We still wanted to do a lot and travel a lot. And we, especially him, needed a lot of freedom to explore all those things before we settled down.
Alexandra Cole
00:35:56 – 00:36:29
So we didn’t get married until 10 years after we met, and then we took another few years before we had our son. But learning about his human design allowed me to be such a better partner for him because up until I learned about it, there were certain aspects. So he’s a projector, right, which, like I said, projectors need a lot of alone time. And I remember so distinctly, even in college too, you know, we’d have these, like, free afternoons. And my immediate response was, great.
Alexandra Cole
00:36:29 – 00:36:50
Let’s go do something. And you could tell he did not want to. Sometimes he kind of appeased me, but most of the time, it’s like, I just I just kinda wanna be by myself in my room. And I could not understand, and I would take it personally. So I would assume, oh, he’s not into me or he’s not into me as much as I’m into him.
Alexandra Cole
00:36:50 – 00:37:25
Right? And when I discovered that he was a projector, it all made so much sense. And I could finally stop taking those things personally because he would just sit in his room and watch a movie. And in my head, I’m like, well, I could just watch the movie with you, but it wouldn’t have been the same. Like, he really needed to be in his own aura, his own energy in order to fully recharge from the just busyness of being in college and playing a sport and you know, the whole social scene and life, like, that was really important for him.
Alexandra Cole
00:37:25 – 00:38:27
And I wish I knew in college because it would have saved me a lot of anxiety. But especially now also, you know, becoming parents and understanding, for example, that for a projector, starting his day slowly is really really supportive and allows him to show up more fully as a dad and as a partner later on in the day. Whereas for me, as a generator, I kind of wake up and immediate this is not true for all generators, but for me, I kind of have this, like, you know, steady current of energy that I can use as a parent. And so I take the majority of the morning shifts because I know that then later on, if I need him around dinner time, my husband’s gonna be present and ready to go. But if I or on the mornings where he does have to do the, you know, 6:30, 7 AM wake up, by the end of the day, he’s shot, and he needs more of that solo time to recharge.
Alexandra Cole
00:38:27 – 00:39:12
So it’s just learning to understand that and then not comparing his energetic outputs, right, to mine because they’re incomparable, and one isn’t better than the other. It’s just different. So when he has a solo weekend, for example, my husband knows that he can only be on, quote unquote, as that parent for 2, 3 hours at a time comfortably before it starts to become really really difficult. So he will, in advance, make sure he’s got his parents that are gonna take a little window, that we’ve got a babysitter that might take the little window to set him up for success. Whereas I am much better able to just kind of grind it out for 48 hours.
Alexandra Cole
00:39:12 – 00:39:36
Right? And for me, the more important thing is making sure that throughout the day, I get to do things that excite me and bring me joy and that I get to take my son to, like, my favorite coffee shop or treat us to, you know, a delicious dinner or get an hour at my, like, favorite Pilates studio. Like, that’s much more important to me and is not at all significant to my husband in that case.
Victoria Volk
00:39:36 – 00:39:45
I love that. What’s interesting is that I learned that my husband and I, he’s like the male version of me. We’re both
Alexandra Cole
00:39:45 – 00:39:47
Is he also a manifestor?
Victoria Volk
00:39:47 – 00:39:51
4, 6 emotional manifestor. Exactly.
Alexandra Cole
00:39:49 – 00:39:50
Wow.
Victoria Volk
00:39:51 – 00:39:51
He and I both.
Alexandra Cole
00:39:52 – 00:39:53
What are the odds? Like, that
Victoria Volk
00:39:53 – 00:40:12
Like what are the Odds? I 20 years. 20 years. But just knowing the things that I know, like, I’ve been kinda digging into the gates of love, which really has I mean, we have a lot of these, what are they called?
Victoria Volk
00:40:13 – 00:40:14
The gates of compromise?
Alexandra Cole
00:40:14 – 00:40:16
Yeah. Compromise channels.
Victoria Volk
00:40:16 – 00:40:41
Yeah. We have, like, 5 of them.
Alexandra Cole
00:40:18 – 00:40:18
Mhmm.
Victoria Volk
00:40:18 – 00:40:41
And so just learning about those has been really eye opening and, like, just how he, like, you know, he’s he’s such a giver of of love and affection and, like, being the provider. And and when he’s not feeling like he’s getting something , getting that in return, like, the equivalent of that, like, he can feel a little bit of
Alexandra Cole
00:40:41 – 00:40:43
Taken for granted. He got anger.
Victoria Volk
00:40:43 – 00:40:43
Exactly. Yeah.
Alexandra Cole
00:40:43 – 00:40:43
Yeah.
Victoria Volk
00:40:43 – 00:40:53
So as a manifestor, anger is not our self theme. So when I feel myself getting angry about anything, it’s, oh, what what’s going on?
Alexandra Cole
00:40:54 – 00:41:22
And that’s another really good one to be aware of in partners and in kids too. Right? Because each of those energy types I just described has, you you know, what Victoria just mentioned, this not self theme, which is basically what comes up when you are compromising on your natural energetic pattern. And so for manifestors, that’s anger. So if you notice your child getting angry, your manifestor kid, it’s usually just a sign that they’re being limited in some way.
Alexandra Cole
00:41:22 – 00:42:05
They’re being forced to not listen to that, like, urge that they want to follow or pursue. And for a generator or manifesting generator, it’s gonna be frustration. So if you notice your child getting frustrated, right, or feeling more of that, like, stuck, that frustrated energy, that’s usually a sign that they’re being forced to do many thing too many things that don’t light them up, that aren’t exciting to them. And as a projector, the not-self is bitterness or a lot of the times it comes across as resentment. So if a projector is, you know, not being invited or recognized enough or they feel like they’re pushing themselves too hard beyond their energetic capacity.
Alexandra Cole
00:42:05 – 00:42:29
Right? They’re not given enough time to rest and recharge. They’ll start to get resentful about that. And then reflectors, the final one is disappointment. So if you notice that a reflector is, like, constantly disappointed in themselves or in the world and they just feel let down, that’s a sign that they probably, aren’t in the right environment.
Alexandra Cole
00:42:29 – 00:42:44
Right? That they’re not surrounded by the right people and that they are not able to or that they have absorbed far too much of everyone else’s energy and don’t really know what to do with it or can’t figure out how to let it go.
Victoria Volk
00:42:44 – 00:43:04
So how has this information helped you specifically? Because I’m sure you’ve had more grieving experiences since your mom’s passing, but how has the losses you’ve experienced since then? Been in how do I wanna word this? I think you know what I’m getting at. But, like
Alexandra Cole
00:43:04 – 00:43:04
Mhmm.
Victoria Volk
00:43:05 – 00:43:05
How do you use
Alexandra Cole
00:43:05 – 00:43:08
How do I use human design to support that process?
Victoria Volk
00:43:08 – 00:43:17
Yes. And where would one look at their human design to see where like, where are some areas for people to look in at their human design when it comes to grief?
Alexandra Cole
00:43:17 – 00:44:00
So it’s helped me in so many ways, and 3 come to mind immediately. The first being the energy type piece, and this is mostly around how to support yourself best as you go through that grief. So, again, for me, I know I’m going to feel most like myself and most energized when I am creating enough space to do things that light me up and bring me joy. So even in the face of well, especially in the face of grief, that becomes that much more important, right, to carve out that time for myself. And for projectors, for example, rest becomes that much more important that you’re not pushing yourself.
Alexandra Cole
00:44:01 – 00:44:32
And for manifestors, like, honoring your energetic ups and downs and your desires in that moment and letting go of what other people think becomes that much more important when you’re going through grief. So that’s one. The other piece is that emotional center that we already talked about. So I know that for me, it’s really important for me to allow myself to feel my feelings and to ride that wave. And I can now almost enjoy that process in a weird way.
Alexandra Cole
00:44:32 – 00:44:47
Right? Because I know it’s gonna I know that wave is gonna crash at some moment. Usually, there’s this wave like pattern to emotions, which I think also very much mirrors grief, right, where it kind of, like, comes rolling in. It builds. It builds.
Alexandra Cole
00:44:47 – 00:45:05
It builds. Then there’s this crescendo moment where you’re feeling so much. And then, eventually, that wave crashes, and you kind of find yourself bobbing at the surface in more of kind of that cool, calm, collected space. And you’re still feeling, but the charge has disappeared. Like, it’s less overwhelming.
Alexandra Cole
00:45:06 – 00:45:30
And so understanding that pattern has helped me a lot because I can kind of gauge where I am on that wave, and I can know, okay, it’s gonna crash soon, and that’s the place where I really wanna sit and reflect for a little bit. And be like, okay. What is what is this feeling trying to tell me? Because I know for me that the feelings are always trying to communicate something. So that’s another piece.
Alexandra Cole
00:45:30 – 00:45:55
I allow myself to really sit with things more as opposed to feel like I need to act or do something to resolve it. I know that that wave pattern is gonna continue to exist. Whereas, if you are an open emotional or a non emotional, so that emotional center is what we call undefined and you know you’re more sensitive to other people. If you’re going through grief, you might actually wanna isolate a little bit more. Right?
Alexandra Cole
00:45:55 – 00:46:36
You might actually wanna remove yourself from the other grieving people because you it will almost overshadow your ability to kind of sit with your own grief because you’re gonna be feeling everyone else’s and then feel pressure, right, to respond to that or do something about their grief. So that’s a really helpful insight. And then the last thing that I’d say is looking at profile. So there’s this element in human design called profile, which speaks more to your personality and really to the how, to, like, how you approach things in life. And there’s 12 different profiles, and each profile consists of two numbers.
Alexandra Cole
00:46:37 – 00:47:14
And each of the numbers in the profile represent, like, an archetype that lives within you. So when Victoria was just saying we’re both 4 6 manifestors, the 4 6 is her profile and her husband’s profile. Each of these numbers also can tell you a little bit about, like, how you might process grief most effectively. So really quickly, the number one is known as the investigator archetype. So these are people who will want to know as much as possible and get into the research and feel most comfortable when they have all the data points and all the information.
Alexandra Cole
00:47:15 – 00:47:40
Right? So, for example, when it comes to grieving, these might be the people if, let’s say, it has something to do with an illness. Their immediate thing is I’m gonna research everything that, like, possible about this particular illness and, like, what the statistics are saying or they might delve into, I want to understand like the science behind grief and, like, what the different stages are. Right? Like, that’s very much the, like, one line.
Alexandra Cole
00:47:40 – 00:48:46
The 2, number 2 line is the naturally gifted person. It’s the person who, kind of picks things up very easily, intuitively, and naturally, doesn’t really need to study anything, but just knows in their bones certain things to be true or how to do certain things, Twos benefit a lot from alone time and having the ability to kind of in a safe cocoon-like space do their thing. So in times of grief, a 2 might feel like they really they just wanna, like, close the door to their bedroom and cry or journal or whatever that might look like, but they might feel this need to wanna do it themselves and to really get, like, fully absorbed in their own process and whatever feels good to them at that moment in time to move through it. Threes are like the experimenters. Threes are the the people who learn best through trial and error and throwing stuff against the wall and seeing what sticks.
Alexandra Cole
00:48:46 – 00:48:57
So if you’re a 3 and you’re grieving, you might try all the different things. You might try a certain form of therapy. You might try journaling. You might try painting. You might try meditation.
Alexandra Cole
00:48:58 – 00:49:22
Right? And you just keep kind of, like, whatever you hear about or whatever sparks your interest, I encourage you to experiment with it and see if it supports you and feel supportive. Because the only way you’re gonna figure out what is going to help you through this grieving process is by just trying a lot of different things. And you won’t know just from hearing it from a friend. Right?
Alexandra Cole
00:49:22 – 00:49:39
And just because it worked for the friend doesn’t mean it’s gonna work for you. You’ve gotta try it for yourself. Then there’s the 4. Fours are the relationship oriented people who are very sensitive to the quality of the relationships in their life. They’re very gifted connectors.
Alexandra Cole
00:49:40 – 00:50:21
They’re also people who, you know, get equally as lit up by social interactions as they can get exhausted by them, but it’s this, like, love hate relationship. Right? As you as you probably know, Victoria. So for fours, though, the support system is really really key when it comes to grief, making sure that you feel like you have those individuals in your life that you can vent to that are gonna show up for you, and being very aware of, like, what are the resources that I need, human resources as well as otherwise, in order to feel most supportive supported during this time. 5 is the problem solver.
Alexandra Cole
00:50:22 – 00:50:46
5 are the people who just immediately go into, like, fix it mode. Fives are also very much like, they feel a lot of responsibility. I have a 5. So you can see how, right, as a kid, my immediate reaction was, like, I’m gonna go into problem solving. I’m going to be the person that everyone in my family can rely on, and so that means shutting down my own emotions.
Alexandra Cole
00:50:46 – 00:51:33
So fives oftentimes have a lot going on below the surface that no one can see because they feel like they have to uphold a certain level of kind of responsibility, and they really hate disappointing other people. And they don’t like feeling vulnerable even though the vulnerability is actually the key for them. So for fives, finding even the one person or the one setting in which you can truly be vulnerable and allow that hard outer shell to kind of, like, disappear for a moment in times of grief is essential. Because in most situations, you’re gonna wanna be that, like, problem solver, and you can’t always be that. You need to also take care of yourself and your own needs in that sense.
Alexandra Cole
00:51:34 – 00:52:12
And then the last number, the 6, is the role model, and sixes are people who are wise beyond their years. They’re kind of these, like, natural advisers, very fair, very objective, and very reflective too. So for sixes as you’re going through grief, a lot of it will be reflecting on and observing kind of what’s coming up for me, what might that mean in almost like a bird’s eye view type of way. Right? Like, very much kind of, feeling almost like a little bit removed as if you’re looking at yourself going through that grieving process.
Alexandra Cole
00:52:13 – 00:52:45
But sixes might also, again, feel pressure to, play that role model part and therefore also not get, like, pulled under by their grief. And so it’s important for sixes to kind of still lean into that other number that they have because you always have 2 numbers in order to help them actually do that work because they’re very quickly gonna wanna go into, okay, what have I learned from this grief, and how can I now use that to support other people through the same process?
Victoria Volk
00:52:45 – 00:52:50
This has been gold. Just absolute gold. I how are you on time?
Alexandra Cole
00:52:50 – 00:52:54
I’m good. I probably should start wrapping it up though soon.
Victoria Volk
00:52:55 – 00:53:27
Okay. Oh, because I wanted to talk more about your story a little bit more, but, I wanna ask though quickly. So knowing what you know now, like, what gives you the most hope for the future? And, also, what is it about human design that you feel, you can bring into or how what would you suggest for Grievers to that’s not even a good question either. I’m trying to I wanna ask, like, a 1,000,000 questions right now because I’m I’m pressure root center.
Alexandra Cole
00:53:28 – 00:53:30
Mhmm. Just let it let it sit. You’ll get there.
Victoria Volk
00:53:32 – 00:53:48
Okay. What would you like to share? What do you think? I’m gonna just I’m gonna put it in your hands because you know human design far beyond my my capabilities. So what do you think is most important for people to know that you haven’t shared already?
Victoria Volk
00:53:48 – 00:53:57
And also the most important lesson and things that you have gotten from human design that you’re taking forward and that you’re utilizing in your life.
Alexandra Cole
00:53:57 – 00:54:28
I think I’ll keep it as simple and succinct as possible and say that the whole system of human design is built on this premise of differentiation, science of differentiation. Like, each of us is designed intentionally to be unique and different in terms of the way our energy works. And that, by definition, means that everyone is designed to grieve differently. Right? Like, there is no one size fits all approach to grief.
Alexandra Cole
00:54:28 – 00:54:59
And so I really encourage you to, you know, find some type of solace in that too. Right? That, like, just because, you know, something worked for someone else in your life and it’s not working for you, it doesn’t mean there’s anything wrong with you. It just means that you haven’t found the most aligned way for you to process that grief. And a lot of it comes down to understanding yourself on this, like, whole another level and trusting yourself.
Alexandra Cole
00:54:59 – 00:55:44
And I think that, again, we live in a world that puts so much pressure on us to be a certain way, to operate in a certain way. There’s a very clear right and wrong way to do things. And as a result, we compromise on or shut down and ignore those inner voices that, as kids, are much louder and then as adults kind of fade away into the background. And I hope that the grieving process serves as a way for you to start to get to know those voices again, to start to hear them more clearly, to start to kind of shut out all the shoulds that you’re feeling pressure to live up to from the outside world and really tune into what do I need, what does my body want. Right?
Alexandra Cole
00:55:45 – 00:56:26
How am I responding to whatever it is that you might be facing in that moment in time? Because if you can allow the grieving process to do that, you will come out on the other end so much stronger and more aligned and in tune with who you are really here to be. And if nothing else, right, that the grieving process is such a powerful way of just, like, shedding more layers and coming closer to, like, that authentic self. So accept and embrace this idea that we’re all here to do things differently and use this as an opportunity to kind of get to know what that unique recipe looks like for you.
Victoria Volk
00:56:27 – 00:56:29
I actually have a program. It’s called do grief differently.
Alexandra Cole
00:56:30 – 00:56:33
There you go. I didn’t even know that. See?
Victoria Volk
00:56:33 – 00:57:09
But it is a framework, and it is evidence-based. And so as I’m listening to you, I’m like, I’ve seen this work for so many different types of people, so many different personalities, of course, so many different energy types. Right? And so it is like, it is very much about digging into the emotional climate within you. And it’s individualized because it’s it’s a framework that you apply to your grief, not to your neighbor’s grief, your mother’s grief, your sister’s grief, your brother’s grief, whatever.
Victoria Volk
00:57:09 – 00:57:21
And I think that’s why it works because it’s individualized to you in your experience. And I think that’s why it works. But thank you so much. I absolutely loved this. I seriously have loved this.
Victoria Volk
00:57:21 – 00:57:55
I geek out on human design. I’m still in my own explore more exploration and experiment to, of course, and I think that will be a forever ongoing thing. I am a huge proponent of anything that helps us understand ourselves better because I think the most important thing that we can give ourselves is compassion and grace. Not like a grace as a past, but a grace of just self-grace for being able to honor yourself, who you are in the moment, and given yourself that compassion that maybe you didn’t receive growing up. Because of who you were.
Victoria Volk
00:57:55 – 00:58:11
I love Human Design for that reason. Clearly, it’s been a gift for you in your grief experience. And I really, I would love to have you back sometime again, because this was so good. This was really so good. So I really appreciate your time today.
Victoria Volk
00:58:11 – 00:58:16
And, yeah, just so so many so much thanks to you for sharing.
Alexandra Cole
00:58:16 – 00:58:18
Thank you for having me.
Victoria Volk
00:58:18 – 00:58:32
I’m so impressed. Like, you just, like didn’t have to look up notes. Like, you knew it, like, the back of your hand. So I’m very impressed by that and impressed by you and everything that you shared today. Anything else you would like to share?
Alexandra Cole
00:58:32 – 00:58:50
No. I think that’s it. And just thank you for the work that you do too. I mean, I have there’s a special place in my heart for grief and finding frameworks and support to, you know, guide people through those moments in life. So thank you for the work you’re doing as well.
Victoria Volk
00:58:50 – 00:58:56
So how can people work with you? Because you have 2 websites. Right? You have 2 different websites.
Alexandra Cole
00:58:57 – 00:59:34
Yeah. I have 2 different websites. One of them is more just my personal website where you can book sessions, 1 on 1 sessions. Although I will say, because I’m about to have a baby, those sessions will pick up again in May or June, I would say. So that’s alexandracole.com. For all my other offerings and products, it’s thrivingbydesign.com, and that’s where you can find the wellness report or the well-being report that Victoria was talking about at the beginning, which takes your chart and translates it essentially into your optimal recipe for well-being.
Alexandra Cole
00:59:34 – 01:00:16
And we look at everything from rest and nourishment to mental and emotional health. So a lot of the things that we touched on today will come through in that report, but it’s very specific to well-being. It’s not, like, a broad overview of your chart, let’s say. I also, on that website, have something called Raised by Design, which is for parents who want to, at a very high level, understand their child’s design. It’s like a 20 page summary of just kind of the, like, main points that you need to understand with very tactical strategies for how to actually support your child in that way, in the most aligned way.
Victoria Volk
01:00:16 – 01:00:18
And that’s specific to your child’s chart.
Alexandra Cole
01:00:18 – 01:00:21
Correct? That’s specific to your child’s chart.
Victoria Volk
01:00:21 – 01:00:21
Gold, people.
Alexandra Cole
01:00:22 – 01:00:22
Yeah.
Victoria Volk
01:00:23 – 01:00:23
That’s gold.
Alexandra Cole
01:00:24 – 01:00:36
Yeah. So I mean, there’s a lot of other also free resources and different things on Thriving by Design, but those are 2 reports that I, you know, are worth calling out specifically.
Victoria Volk
01:00:36 – 01:00:37
How about the purpose playbook?
Alexandra Cole
01:00:38 – 01:01:22
The purpose playbook is my book that I wrote, you know, after that experience of just kind of leaving the corporate world and reflecting on, you know, what allowed me to do that with so much conviction and confidence. It doesn’t actually even talk about human design. It’s very much like a framework for helping people pinpoint, like, what their purpose and mission is in this life and how to go pursue it in a aligned way. So I wrote that book back in 2019, came out in 2020. So if you’re looking for more of the kind of step by step process to articulate and live out your purpose in life, that’s that’s a really helpful resource too.
Victoria Volk
01:01:22 – 01:01:27
I bet you could come up with a second book knowing what you know now.
Alexandra Cole
01:01:27 – 01:01:36
Maybe. I know. I know. It’s just such a big endeavor, and I’ve been you know, my biggest projects these past few years have been kids. So once I get past that, who knows?
Alexandra Cole
01:01:36 – 01:01:37
The next will be a book.
Victoria Volk
01:01:38 – 01:02:26
Quickly, the few things that from the ebook, I just wanna share from the well by design. For me, it was so surprising things were, exercise in the afternoon to cleanse my system, which I found I naturally tend to do that sometimes. I was very surprised to learn that I don’t need much food to, yeah, I don’t need as much food to feel nourished, which I was really surprising to me because I’ve just went through a coaching thing and, you know, a lot of it was like macros, and I had to eat so much food, so much food, and I had so much energy, but, you know, I could tell my something was waning at some I know it’s a point, you know, when it came to my digestion and stuff. So that was interesting. And not surprising is that I’m prone to overthinking, which but it’s so good too.
Victoria Volk
01:02:26 – 01:02:42
So I really highly recommend that people check that out. And I’ll put all of the information in the show notes, but I just wanted to quickly share that. Yes. The well by design report is excellent. I the raise by design, get your hands on it because, you know, your children are a product of your parenting.
Victoria Volk
01:02:42 – 01:02:42
Right?
Alexandra Cole
01:02:44 – 01:02:54
100%. Yeah. In a way. They’re they’re actually very like, they have their own makeup, but as a parent, you can either support or negate it. And that’s the key.
Alexandra Cole
01:02:54 – 01:03:04
Right? Like, we wanna actually, as parents, encourage them to become more of themselves as opposed to more of what the world expects them or wants them to be.
Victoria Volk
01:03:04 – 01:03:14
Yeah. No pressure.
Alexandra Cole
01:03:05 – 01:03:05
I know.
Victoria Volk
01:03:05 – 01:03:14
But I think when it comes to grief, right, this is why this information is so important and why I wanted to have you on. So thank you.
Victoria Volk
01:03:14 – 01:03:17
Thank you again. Thank you again for being here.
Alexandra Cole
01:03:17 – 01:03:19
Of course. My pleasure. Thank you for having me.
Victoria Volk
01:03:19 – 01:03:24
And remember, when you unleash your heart, you unleash your life. Much love.
Educational, Emotions, Grief Tips, Grieving Voices Podcast, Pespective, Podcast, solo episode |
SHOW NOTES SUMMARY:
Today’s episode of GrievingVoices takes a deep dive into the complex emotion of anger, especially for us Human Design Manifestor-types navigating loss and trauma. I open up about my battle with anger following life’s curveballs and how it can be misunderstood or mishandled.
As someone who has walked through the fire of personal loss and trauma, I’ve learned firsthand how anger can be both destructive and transformative. It’s not just an outburst; it’s a signal calling us to introspection.
Why does this affect me so deeply?
What boundaries have been crossed?
Many turn to short-term fixes or STERBs (short-term energy-relieving behaviors) like anger to cope with grief. But these are merely band-aids on deeper emotional wounds. The key lies in processing anger constructively. This isn’t about suppressing emotions but rather understanding them—identifying what needs protection or restoration within ourselves before we react impulsively.
Key Takeaways:
-Anger should prompt introspection rather than projection onto others.
-Short-term coping mechanisms like STERBs provide temporary relief but do not address underlying emotional pain.
– Constructive processing of anger involves self-protection and restoration efforts.
– Emotional intelligence grows through understanding our reactions and setting healthy boundaries.
Establishing clear boundaries emerged as another critical theme. The absence of boundary-setting skills during childhood can lead to adult challenges such as unchecked anger. To navigate this complex terrain, the book “Boundaries” is recommended for those seeking guidance on creating and implementing boundaries.
Engagement with our emotions in real-time fosters balance and wellness. Tools like visualization and mindful breathing are practical strategies for dissipating anger without confrontation. We pave the way toward transformative life changes by embracing self-awareness and actively managing our emotions.
Join me in embracing self-awareness and mastering emotional management as pathways toward transforming our lives after loss.
RESOURCES:
Episode Sponsor: Magic Mind | Use the code “GRIEVINGVOICES” to receive one month free with a 3-month subscription. This special promotion is only for January!
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NEED HELP?
- National Suicide Prevention Lifeline: 1-800-273-8255
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If you are struggling with grief due to any of the 40+ losses, free resources are available HERE.
CONNECT WITH VICTORIA:
Navigating the Stormy Seas of Grief: Understanding and Managing Anger
Grief is an ocean of emotion, vast and unpredictable. For many who have lost a loved one or experienced significant life changes, anger can be a tempestuous wave that crashes over them without warning. On today’s episode of “Grieving Voices,” hosted by myself from theunleashedheart.com, I delve deep into this fiery aspect of grief.
As not an only advanced grief recovery method specialist but also as someone who has weathered my own storms of loss. With over three decades under my belt navigating personal grieving experiences—including the loss of my father—I bring both professional insight and heartfelt empathy to our discussion on dealing with anger in grief.
Why Does Anger Manifest in Grief?
Anger during grief often arises from a place within us that feels violated; it may stem from feelings of injustice or powerlessness following a loss. It’s important to recognize that anger isn’t inherently negative—it’s a natural response to pain and can signal areas where we require healing or change.
However, when misunderstood or repressed, anger becomes unhealthy. It festers like an untreated wound, leading potentially to bitterness or even physical ailments due to the stress it imposes on our bodies.
The Pitfalls of Short-Term Energy Relieving Behaviors (STERBs)
In trying times, grievers might turn towards behaviors such as outbursts of rage—or STERBs—to momentarily alleviate their suffering. While these actions might offer temporary solace by releasing pent-up energy, they do little for long-term emotional well-being.
The real challenge lies in confronting what remains emotionally unresolved within us—the core issues beneath the surface-level expressions of distress—and addressing those directly.
Establishing Healthy Boundaries
A key factor contributing to feelings like resentment is poor boundary setting—a topic all too familiar for many individuals brought up without an understanding of healthy personal limits. Without clear boundaries, you may find yourself slipping into roles that don’t serve you well: becoming overly accommodating at your expense (people-pleasing) or struggling with asserting your needs effectively (difficulty saying no).
For those eager to learn more about establishing healthier interpersonal dynamics—which can significantly reduce instances where anger stems from feeling taken advantage of—I recommend reading the book *Boundaries* which provides profound insights into this critical skill set for maintaining emotional health.
Embracing Your Emotional Compass
As we wrap up today’s conversation on “Grieving Voices,” remember that each emotion carries its message—one worth listening to if we are brave enough to face it head-on. Whether through acknowledging our hurt openly instead of masking it behind aggression or learning how to better manage stressful situations using tools like Magic Mind—we must strive toward understanding ourselves deeper.
In facing these challenging emotions related specifically to sadness & fury associated with w/losses big & small alike, let’s take heart in my closing mantra: Unleash your heart so you may unleash your life! Share this podcast episode if it resonates with you & continue spreading compassion simply by being “a heart with ears.”
Episode Transcription:
Victoria Volk
00:01:29 – 00:01:51
Hello friends. Welcome to another episode of Grieving Voices if you’ve been listening all along. Today is episode 179, and that seems crazy to say.
Victoria Volk
00:01:51 – 00:02:16
This is the 179th time that I’m sitting down to record for you. And what a blessing and what a ride it’s been, and so thank you for being here. And if this is your first time listening, I hope you come back for another episode. Today, I wanna talk about anger. And the question is, that a lot of grievers have.
Victoria Volk
00:02:18 – 00:03:19
It’s something that I’ve personally struggled with a lot of my life. And, you know, in learning about human design and being a manifestor, our not self theme as a manifestor is anger. And so every time, you know, when I reflect on my past and my life up to this point, there’s a lot of moments where I can distinctly remember where my anger got the best of me. And particularly with a grieving experience, you know, after my dad had passed away and then being molested, a year later and subsequently, later after that, I was holding a lot of anger in my body. There was no way for me to channel it.
Victoria Volk
00:03:19 – 00:03:47
And actually, it wasn’t really an emotion that I learned was healthy. You know, so many of us grew up in homes where anger is expressed but yet we’re shamed for it or, it’s like something to keep to yourself. Right?, like, it’s, you know, don’t express it to other people because, I mean, it’s hurt it can be hurtful too. Right?
Victoria Volk
00:03:47 – 00:04:46
Like anger projected onto other people can Inflict emotional wounds on others. We can be very, what’s the word? Victimizing of others with our anger, and also, we’re also suffering when we do that because I believe that we are all sparks of love and light, and, you know, we come into this world in love, and I believe we go out of this world in love and so I would say anger is a not love theme too for all of us, but it’s there to serve a purpose, I believe, as well. Anger shows us where we have some work to do on ourselves. Not where other people need to work on themselves or where other people need to heal something within us.
Victoria Volk
00:04:47 – 00:05:30
I think when anger comes up, it is like a stop sign like, woah, hold the bus. Why is this upsetting me? Why do I feel activated by you or this conversation or this thing you did or the feelings that I’m feeling, why am I feeling fired up inside? Why am I feeling passionate about this that, you know, it can come up as anger too when we feel like this injustice is being done or I mean, there’s plenty of that around the world right now, and we can feel angry about it. We can feel angry at God for the suffering that we experience in our lives, like I was for many years.
Victoria Volk
00:05:32 – 00:06:03
Why would God allow such, you know, things to happen. Why would God take a young child’s parent away? Why would God allow sexual abuse of children. There’s so many questions that come up within our grief and our trauma, and the anger can be so overwhelming and all consuming. We have nowhere to put it.
Victoria Volk
00:06:03 – 00:06:52
We don’t know what to do with it. And I can’t talk about anger without talking about STERBS or short term energy relieving behaviors, which is what we call them in grief recovery. These are things that we do as gravers to relieve or dispel this overwhelming build up of emotional energy that is caused by the death of a person for whom we are grieving or something someone did to us. And the problem with STERBs is that that’s their short-term. There’s no long-term relief when we just use up energy to distract ourselves from our pain.
Victoria Volk
00:06:53 – 00:07:23
It doesn’t make the pain go away. And one of the most common short-term relievers is anger. And the problem with anger is that you can never finish or complete it. It’s like this key it keeps looping like a hamster on a wheel. And the more time you spend using your energy to express the anger, you know, and lashing out to the other person or even taking it to the gym.
Victoria Volk
00:07:23 – 00:08:08
Right?, And just was going to town on a on a punching bag, the less time you spend on what would help you discover and resolve what was left emotionally unfinished for you, either by the death of a loved one or by not addressing what is really at the crux of whatever loss it is that you experienced. And the other issues, with STERBS, we can, you know, related to sterbs and anger is, you know, we want we wanna get rid of that anger. We don’t know what to do with it. We wanna get rid of it, but so what we do is we just kind of attempt to disassociate ourselves from it.
Victoria Volk
00:08:08 – 00:08:44
Like, I just need to get away from the situation. I just need to try and forget about it. And so we start, we might actually slip into these other these other emotions come into play. Right? And then we can feel depressed about where we are in our situation, and we might be sleeping more and spending endless hours watching TV or reading novels that help us escape from our day to day lives and our emotions that we’re experiencing such as strong emotions of anger and, of course, grief.
Victoria Volk
00:08:45 – 00:09:33
But those nonaction activities do nothing to help you discover and complete what is emotionally unfinished for you? It’s with action that you can turn things around. Being able to find the language and articulate what it is that you are angry about. And often, so often, anger shows us, and doing the the steps of grief recovery show us where we don’t have boundaries or where a boundary has been violated. Before we get on the topic of boundaries, I have a shout-out for my sponsor of this episode, Magic Mind.
Victoria Volk
00:09:33 – 00:10:15
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Victoria Volk
00:10:16 – 00:10:40
One shot gets you into your most productive flow state. Customers report a 40% boost to productivity on average. They say athletes have gatorade and now creators have creator aid. And so I just wanna give a shout out to them. And if you are listening to this and you wanna give it a try, they have a special promotion right now for my listeners only in January.
Victoria Volk
00:10:41 – 00:11:15
You get 1 month for free when you subscribe for 3 months at the go to the website, magicmind.com/jangrievingvoices. That’s magicmind.com/jangrievingvoices and use my code grieving voices, and that gets you an extra 20% off, which gets you to a total of 75% off. And remember, this only lasts until the end of January, so hurry up before this offer goes away. And I hope that you find it just as useful for you as I have in my morning routine. Alright.
Victoria Volk
00:11:15 – 00:11:52
Back to the episode and talking about boundaries. Alright. So far, we’ve talked about anger as being a stirr up, a short-term energy relieving behavior. And I’ve mentioned how when anger arises within ourselves and we feel it coming up in our body and rising up, it’s usually in response to something someone did or something someone said or something that we’re really activated by. It could be something even we’re passionate about, maybe even in injustice in the world, and when we feel this coming up within us, it’s coming up for to be in within our awareness.
Victoria Volk
00:11:53 – 00:13:31
And, really, the question we could be asking ourselves when we are feeling anger is, a, what must be protected, and b, What must be restored? These are two questions you can ask yourself when you’re feeling activated with anger. And you can choose to either respond to the other person if they’ve said or done something towards you, but really that’s not going to resolve anything that will probably make that other person just feel defensive and, you know, unless they’re emotionally intelligent and have worked so much on themselves and have addressed so much anger in their life, they’re likely to respond like most of society would respond, and that would be in a defensive pattern, with probably more anger back towards you. And then not only is it something that you’re angry about what they just said or did, but now It’s even severed that relationship or hindered or wounded that relationship even more. So we deepen these wounds when we don’t stop long enough to think about and have some introspection about why we’re angry and what is it that is bringing up so much disease within us, this fiery response that we feel in every cell of our our bodies that, you know, we feel like we just gotta punch something or we want to we have to like we have to do something with this activated energy.
Victoria Volk
00:13:32 – 00:14:24
And so we can either move it physically or you can move it with your mind. Right?, like, energetically. Like, I’ve learned a lot about this just in the energetics of emotions and The energy healing work that I’ve been doing and for my personal my own personal emotional hygiene is we can our minds are amazing, miraculous things and a tool that is sorely underestimated, but because we give it so much power that in circumstances like these when we’re feeling angry and it’s like poop, the monkey mind just takes over and we have this initial response and we don’t pause long enough to and we don’t pause long enough to check-in with our emotional body. And it is our emotional body responding to, like I said, these a boundary or something that needs to be protected or something that needs to be restored.
Victoria Volk
00:14:24 – 00:15:15
And so asking ourselves those questions can lead us to better answers. And so if you want to you can either physically move that energy with your mind or your body and then through your breath, which is underestimated as well. Like, we can you can take your your mind through this mental process of putting imagine when you feel activated by someone or something, imagine this fiery energy just surrounding you. Feel feel imagine yourself as like this flame and allowing it to intensify, allowing those emotions to intensify this flame that you’re feeling, it seems counterintuitive, but just stay with me. So you feel this energy building up and this the fire within you and this boundary fire.
Victoria Volk
00:15:15 – 00:15:31
Right? Like, it let’s let’s think of it as active energy. Right? Because again, what needs to be protected? There’s something within you that is being activated because there’s a boundary being dishonored in some way.
Victoria Volk
00:15:31 – 00:15:52
You know, maybe it was you’re bound you’re maybe you value honesty, and this person just lied to you. That’s gonna activate some anger within you, don’t you think? Like, if that’s a real high value for you. And the thing is honesty, and we talk about this in Youmap when we talk about values. Honesty is a reciprocal value.
Victoria Volk
00:15:52 – 00:16:20
We expect that other people are going to be honest. It’s a typical reciprocal value, and so when others aren’t honest with us, we get activated with anger. And so a response to that could be not spewing anger back at the person, but taking that energy and letting it just kinda rise up within you, see your energy field putting up this protective. This protective wall. Not a wall.
Victoria Volk
00:16:22 – 00:16:46
Barrier. We’ll call it a barrier. Protective barrier around you. And see that energy building up, and then you can do it in your mind, or you can really walk away from the situation and do this or reflect on it later and do this on the situation. But through your breath, put out that fire.
Victoria Volk
00:16:46 – 00:17:08
Like, imagine you’re, like, spitting water on this fire, And you can literally dissolve that anger that you felt in that moment that is built up within you, that you’re feeling this energy. Put it out with your breath, but imagine that breath as water because what does oxygen do? It stokes a fire. Right? We wanna put it out.
Victoria Volk
00:17:08 – 00:17:53
So imagine you’re just blowing water onto this fire, this flame. It’s crazy how these visualizations can shift your energetic body in a matter of moments. The mind is so capable that we underestimate it so much. A visual I use a lot of visualizations in the energy work that I do just because it helps people connect to a part of themselves they don’t normally connect to. We just don’t take that, and that’s where meditation is huge in disconnecting, you know, our monkey mind from our body and tapping into the body and tapping into the emotional body.
Victoria Volk
00:17:54 – 00:18:48
So then after we’ve done this, we can then recognize what are the boundaries that were being violated we’re dishonored. I think it’s so hard for people to articulate what their boundaries are because so many of us grew up without our autonomy, without our boundaries being respected, for example, let’s say you’re at a family function. Let’s say when you were a kid, you’re at a family function, and I see this I’ve seen this myself a lot. And at first, I did this when my kids were young too. Oh, give so and so a hug, or let grandma give you a hug and kiss on the cheek, or whatever the case was, and they didn’t want that physical touch in that moment and said no, or I don’t want to give grandma a hug, or I don’t want to give my uncle a hug, or aunt, or whoever it is, it doesn’t matter.
Victoria Volk
00:18:49 – 00:19:15
And the child says no, and the parent dishonors that no, and makes them do that anyway, that is a violation of a boundary that a child had and where their no wasn’t respected. Now if you’re listening to this and you’re like, oh my gosh. This happened to me all the time Think about if you’re a parent, have you done this? Like, this is something we learn.
Victoria Volk
00:19:15 – 00:19:50
Right? This is a pattern that we continue through time, but we don’t think of these things as laying a foundation of not respecting our own boundaries. So then you become an adult who becomes a people pleaser to make others so others feel better. So it’s almost as if, well, go give grandma a hug now because she’ll feel better. She’ll be happier, regardless of how you feel about it.
Victoria Volk
00:19:50 – 00:20:21
Now how does this translate as an adult? Saying yes when you mean no. It’s a violation of your own boundary of protecting your personal space. And sometimes you might feel just fine giving the hug or showing the other person affection, but maybe there’s a moment where you don’t. The last thing anybody wants is to be forced to do so and to not have our no respected.
Victoria Volk
00:20:22 – 00:21:21
And so then when you think about sexual abuse or things like that, well, that’s a definite violation of personal space and safety and all of these other things that create these traumatic emotional wounds around boundaries. So many of us don’t wouldn’t know a boundary if it slapped us in the face. And then when we have others in our lives who start having this awareness around boundaries, who know themselves well, and who know their needs and desires and where they draw the line well and start implementing boundaries to others and communicating those, what do you think people are met with boundaries? Or when it’s perceived as well, what’s this change about? Like, what when you start Implementing boundaries in your life?
Victoria Volk
00:21:21 – 00:21:30
You’re gonna have people that are gonna be activated by that. Right? You’re changed. There’s something different. I don’t like this.
Victoria Volk
00:21:31 – 00:21:58
Why aren’t you letting me walk all over you like you used to? Right? I used to be able to control you, and now, you have these boundaries and now you’re standing up for yourself and I don’t know what to do with this. This makes me angry. So we can meet anger too just by creating boundaries, and how are we gonna be prepared for that?
Victoria Volk
00:21:59 – 00:22:42
When it comes to boundaries, I highly recommend The book “Boundaries”, I’ve actually it’s been several years since I’ve read it, but, I think I’m going to actually, read it again. I actually, I read it after I went through grief recovery. Because like I said, it’s a great follow-up to grief recovery because you realize in grief recovery where you did not have boundaries and where your parents did not teach you about boundaries because, you know, they probably didn’t even have their own. Right? It’s like, you know, parents with a date night if parents never have a date night, and they’re always with their children 247.
Victoria Volk
00:22:42 – 00:22:55
And then, all of a sudden, they decide they’re gonna have a date night. What do you think that child’s gonna feel? Maybe some anger? Maybe some abandonment. Like, why are you doing this now?
Victoria Volk
00:22:55 – 00:23:14
I want you to stay with me. You’ve always been with me. Now all of a sudden you’re gonna go out and you’re gonna spend time alone, and I’m gonna be here by myself or with this babysitter, and it’s probably gonna bring him some anger. But that’s a good thing. This is how we learn how to work with our emotions, that all emotions are valid.
Victoria Volk
00:23:14 – 00:23:49
So it’s not to say to the child, well, there’s nothing to be angry about, and dismiss the anger. Rather, explain to the child about boundaries. Rather, teach the child how to breathe through their anger, how to channel it physically or, you know, with their breath or physically with their body to rid themselves of that energy. These are practical things that we just are never taught in school. Right?
Victoria Volk
00:23:49 – 00:24:11
About boundaries, about anger, about our emotions. I mean, we are so complex when it comes to our emotions. This stuff isn’t taught in school. So I hope you check into the resource, the book boundaries. It has a little bit of a Christian spin, but it’s not like shoved down your throat or anything.
Victoria Volk
00:24:12 – 00:25:28
But I hope you check out that book Boundaries., I will link to it in the show notes. And Just one final thought about anger is that and just like grief, you cannot relate to another person, if you don’t know who you are or where you began and that other person ends, just as you cannot nurture peace or honor the needs of others until you understand and meet your own needs. And that relates to anger, that relates to grief, and that relates to just any emotion that you’re experiencing and the boundaries that you may or may not have. And I think that’s been I think that’s one of my missions too, along with changing the conversation around grief and talking about it like we talk about the weather is the mission of knowing yourself, understanding yourself, and putting yourself in the way of resources and people and tools and maybe guides or therapists or modalities that can get you closer to knowing yourself, identifying your emotional climate when it comes up, whether it be, well, this is grief, or this is anger, and what do you do with it?
Victoria Volk
00:25:28 – 00:25:54
You know, you can run away from it. It’s gonna come up eventually, or you can just you can face it. You can address it, and you can do something about it. So it doesn’t impact your life moving forward, because how many times have you had an anger outburst or an interaction with somebody that it left you feeling angry after. And you’re thinking about it days later.
Victoria Volk
00:25:54 – 00:26:19
Days later. That’s no good for you. That’s no good for anybody. You know, so then you have these this emotional incompleteness with this other person now, and it’s almost like this contract of anger that you have with this person, and I’m here to say that you can blow that up. You can do something about it without having to confront them.
Victoria Volk
00:26:20 – 00:26:35
And you can do it with your mind. You can do it with visualization. You can do it with writing and burn it. There are ways we can physically move through the emotions that are there for a reason. They are there communicating with you.
Victoria Volk
00:26:35 – 00:27:12
It is your body communicating with you, whether it’s grief, whether it’s anger, joy, sadness, everything in between. There are resource resources out there. You just gotta look for them and be open to learning. And that’s what I will leave you with today. I hope you are curious now about the book “Boundaries” and about what boundaries might you not have and might you need and learning more about, you know, really just emotional equilibrium.
Victoria Volk
00:27:13 – 00:27:56
Right? It’s not about stuffing down, controlling, or disregarding or minimizing or running away from, you know, we faith when you face this stuff as it arises, not like, oh, I’ll deal with that later once I get this, that, and the other thing done, or I’ll deal with that later once I just sit down and have a drink. That’s not gonna help you, my friend. Your mind is a miraculous tool and a thing that I think most of us waste in a lot of ways. So, yeah, I’m just sharing some things that I’ve learned along the way, and I hope you find it helpful.
Victoria Volk
00:27:56 – 00:28:25
And remember, when you unleash your heart, you unleash your life. Much love.
