Ep 184 Alexandra Cole | Coping with Grief: Self-Care, Parenting, and Life with Human Design

SHOW NOTES SUMMARY:

Are you ready to embark on a journey that could transform your understanding of purpose, parenting, and personal healing?

This week on Grieving Voices, I welcomed Alexandra Cole, a former corporate consultant turned human design coach. After a decade in the Fortune 500 sector, Alexandra pivoted to guiding individuals and families in finding their purpose through human design—a system that combines astrology, I Ching, Kabbalah, and the chakras.

Born in London and raised in Amsterdam with an education from Princeton University, she now resides in Santa Barbara with her husband and young son. Her journey into motherhood inspired “Thriving by Design,” a toolkit designed for parents to understand their child’s unique traits.

Alexandra shares her personal story of loss—losing her mother at age ten—and how it shaped her emotional world. She explains how understanding one’s own human design can be instrumental during grief and aiding parents to align better with their children’s innate designs.

She discusses the five energy types within human design: Manifestors (initiators), Projectors (guides), Generators, & Manifesting Generators (consistent workers who need joy-based work). Each type has different ways of investing energy for fulfillment and purpose. The conversation also delves into parenting aligned with your child’s energy type—such important information and particularly helpful when parenting grieving children.

This insightful discussion highlights how embracing our inherent nature according to our human design can lead us toward more authentic and aligned lives.

If you’re curious about how your unique blueprint can shape your way forward—in joyous times or challenging ones—I encourage you to learn your human design and listen to this episode because sometimes the most authentic path is the one that is tailor-made just for us.

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Unlocking the Power of Human Design in Grieving, Parenting, and Self-Discovery

In today’s fast-paced world, where change is constant and life often throws us curveballs, understanding ourselves and our loved ones can sometimes feel like deciphering an enigmatic puzzle. But what if there was a blueprint—a design—that could help us navigate these complexities with greater ease? Enter Human Design, a revolutionary system that combines ancient wisdom with modern science to offer profound insights into our personalities.

Recently on Grieving Voices, we had the pleasure of hosting Alexandra Cole—once a corporate consultant for Fortune 500 companies who has now found her calling as a human design coach. With her international background and diverse experiences shaping her approach to coaching, she shared how human design has become an invaluable tool for personal growth during grief, enhancing parenting techniques, and managing life’s myriad challenges.

The Transformation Journey: From Corporate Consulting to Human Design

Alexandra’s journey from advising corporations to coaching individuals speaks volumes about the transformative power of purpose. Her work through “Thriving by Design” demonstrates how aligning one’s career with their inner calling can lead not only to personal fulfillment but also make significant impacts on others’ lives.

Understanding Ourselves Through Grief

Grief is unique to every individual; it shapes itself around each person’s energy type. Alexandra emphasizes that knowing your human design can reveal personalized paths for healing when you’re navigating loss or adversity. For example:

– **Manifestors** may need solitude to initiate their own grieving process.
– **Projectors** might seek deep understanding before they can find closure.
– **Generators** require activities that reignite their spark amidst sorrow.
– **Manifesting Generators**, much like generators but with added complexity due to their multifaceted nature.
– Lastly,** Reflectors**, whose sensitivity means they deeply mirror those around them—and thus may absorb collective grief which needs careful navigation.

By recognizing these patterns within ourselves based on our energy types in times of mourning or crisis—we allow space for compassion towards self-healing journeys tailored just right for us.

Parental Guidance Enhanced by Human Design

Parenting is arguably one of life’s most challenging yet rewarding roles—and here too human design offers remarkable guidance. By acknowledging each child’s unique energy type (be it Manifestor or Reflector), parents are better equipped at fostering environments where children thrive authentically rather than conforming them into ill-fitting societal molds.

For instance:

– Encourage your child when you see them light up doing something they love—this physical response signals alignment with their true nature.
– Recognize that while Generators have abundant energy reserves—they must be wary not becoming ‘yes people’, overcommitting themselves away from joyous pursuits
– Understand Reflectors’ need for supportive surroundings given their heightened sensitivities reflecting back the health—or dis-ease—of communities around them

This knowledge doesn’t just cultivate healthier relationships between parent-child dynamics; it paves the way toward nurturing well-rounded individuals grounded in self-awareness from early stages onward.

Better Relationships Through Energetic Understanding

Human design isn’t limited solely to introspection—it extends outwardly enrichening relational dynamics too! Partnerships benefit immensely when both parties respect differing energetic requirements (imagine respecting your partner’s need for dynamic mornings versus quiet evenings). This framework fosters deeper empathy & effective communication leading towards harmonious co-existence amid diversity in temperaments & preferences alike!

Resources at Your Fingertips

Alexandra provides multiple avenues through which anyone interested can delve further into this transformative field:

1) Personal sessions via alexandracole.com
2) Wellness products including customized reports at thrivingbydesign.com
3) Her book “The Purpose Playbook”, guides readers towards living out authentic purposes

These resources serve as tools aiding one along paths whether seeking solace during grief-stricken times or simply aspiring towards more aligned living overall – all underscored by honoring inherent uniqueness above external expectations thrust upon us!

As we wrapped up our conversation filled with gratitude & enlightenment —it became clear why nurturing individuality holds paramount importance across facets ranging from parenting strategies down even unto embracing personal narratives woven uniquely within tapestries called ‘life’.

To live authentically—isn’t just sound advice—it’s foundational ethos empowering thriving existences no matter what storms come ashore!

Episode Transcription:

Victoria Volk
00:00:00 – 00:00:27
Thank you so much for tuning in to grieving voices. I’m very excited to, bring a guest. We haven’t had a guest in a little while here on the podcast. And today, Alexandra Cole is joining me. She is a former corporate consultant turned human design coach after a decade of helping fortune 500 identify and articulate their why she pivoted to help individuals, families, and couples do the same.

Victoria Volk
00:00:27 – 00:01:18
She uses human design as a tool to help her clients pursue their purpose with more clarity and confidence. Alexander is passionate about translating insights from her clients, human design charts into actionable strategies for optimizing their relationships, well-being, careers, finances, and family life. She was born in London, raised in Amsterdam, educated at Princeton University, and now lives in Santa Barbara, California with her husband and 2 year old son. Becoming a mother inspired her to create thriving by design, a collection of tools, cheat sheets, and online courses designed to give parents insight into their child’s unique sensitivities, preferences, and gifts, as well as tactical tips for how to support them. Alexandra is happiest when moving her body, eating good food, exploring new places, and in deep conversation with new or old friends.

Victoria Volk
00:01:19 – 00:01:35
I love that. I love deep conversation too. And I love human design, and I honestly can’t even remember how I got into your sphere, but I did. And you share the same name as my middle Alexandra. I love the name.

Victoria Volk
00:01:35 – 00:01:53
Beautiful name. But there was something I found interesting when I was looking into, I don’t know, I opened an email, then you you know, you get down a rabbit hole. And then I found your wellness. The wellness design report or well by well by design report. And that’s how we kind of connected.

Victoria Volk
00:01:53 – 00:02:30
And I’m just thinking, like, gosh, this would be a really good topic for to bring on the podcast for people, especially particularly grievers who, you know, sometimes you just don’t know what you need. And this well by design report can be a good place to start. Like, if I just wanna feel better, how can I feel better that is aligned with who I am and how I was created and how I was made? Right? And, and I absolutely love also the idea of arming parents with information and knowledge to help them be let’s see.

Victoria Volk
00:02:30 – 00:02:37
What’s the word I wanna use? A more aligned parent for their child.

Alexandra Cole
00:02:32 – 00:02:32
Yeah. 100%

Victoria Volk
00:02:33 – 00:02:37
Based on their child’s design. Right?

Alexandra Cole
00:02:37 – 00:02:37
Mhmm.

Victoria Volk
00:02:38 – 00:03:00
Because if youngest is 15, if I would have known what I know now about human design, about my own design, about my kids, All 3 of them are manifesting generators. I’m a manifester. Like, I was exhausted. Like, motherhood, like, totally exhausted me to the point where, like, you can question, like, oh my god.

Victoria Volk
00:03:00 – 00:03:02
What did I sign up for?

Alexandra Cole
00:03:03 – 00:03:12
I can only imagine. I have one little manifesting generator, and that’s already a lot. I can’t imagine having 3 of them running around.

Victoria Volk
00:03:12 – 00:03:16
And they’re all, like, the first 2 or 18 months apart and the yeah.

Alexandra Cole
00:03:16 – 00:03:16
Wow.

Victoria Volk
00:03:16 – 00:03:20
Yeah. I had 3 under in 5 under 5 years. So

Alexandra Cole
00:03:20 – 00:04:21
That’s impressive. Especially as a manifester, that is incredibly impressive. And, I mean, I would also say too, from a grief perspective, I think both of us lost a parent very young in life. And if I had understood my design better or if, God forbid, anything like that ever happens in my immediate family, having human design as a tool to just better understand a child’s emotional world and how they’re designed to navigate these types of major traumas and just life changing events, especially when it comes to kind of your environment and how that shifts. It allows you to show up in a much more kind of supportive way for that child because you know exactly kind of what their patterning is and how to, yes, align with that and support that in how you are tending to them and caring for them.

Victoria Volk
00:04:21 – 00:04:39
I really wanna get to your story in how you got to where you are in with human design and how this all came to be. And so would you please take us back in time and to that loss and how like, what transpired  in the in between?

Alexandra Cole
00:04:40 – 00:05:22
Oh, man. That loss was early on and probably well before, obviously, human design even was at all in my kind of frame of reference, but I lost my mom to breast cancer at age 10. I’m the oldest of 3 kids, and at the time, we were living in the Netherlands. And my dad did an incredible job of kind of stepping in and trying to play Mom and Dad, we were surrounded by an incredible support system. So all things considered, I look back and can only feel grateful in a way for having experienced it in the way that I did.

Alexandra Cole
00:05:22 – 00:06:25
But nonetheless, right, at 10 years old, experiencing such a huge loss, especially as the eldest child, I think, forced me to grow up very very quickly and forced me to kind of grapple with some of these, like, bigger life questions, a lot earlier on than the average 10 year old, let’s say. So I think I was quite a mature teenager in terms of my life experience, but also kind of, like, my way of connecting and understanding others. And especially when it came to my emotional world, I was very aware of all the emotions I was feeling. I just didn’t necessarily feel like it was appropriate for me to express those anymore because I wanted to be strong for my family. So for a good 8 years, I shut down my own kind of emotional response and probably a huge part of that grieving process.

Alexandra Cole
00:06:26 – 00:07:01
Until fast forward at 18, I moved from the Netherlands to the United States, and my mom had actually studied in the United States. So it was kind of a little bit of, like, following in her footsteps. And I get here, and within the 1st year, I fall madly in love with this American man. And it was the first time since losing my mom that I had this huge fear of losing this individual and the impact that that might have. And it kind of actually opened the door for me to experience grief because I was, 1, I think, far enough removed from my family where I felt like I could do that.

Alexandra Cole
00:07:01 – 00:07:55
And 2, I had this trigger of someone I cared so deeply about, and the thought of losing him was, like, such a kind of miserable like, the the pain was, like, so great associated with that that I allowed myself to finally grieve, and I think I cried. Like, basically, I made up for those 8 years of not shedding a tear. And this poor man, who I’m now married to, so I can I can say this? Like, he was incredible, but he probably didn’t understand everything that I was kind of processing and going through at the moment itself. Anyway, fast forward a few years, I graduated college and picked the path of least resistance in the sense that I very much went down the road that I felt like everyone expected me to and that I felt pressured to in a way, which was a very kind of corporate path in management consulting.

Alexandra Cole
00:07:56 – 00:08:29
And I kinda had most of my life planned out. I was a very kind of a logical, rational thinker when it came to kind of where I thought I was heading. And maybe that was also part of all of those years of kind of shutting down that emotional world even though my emotions, especially according to human design, are my most trustworthy inner compass. I just wasn’t listening to them. A few years into that career, a friend of mine asked me to help her brainstorm a new business idea that she had.

Alexandra Cole
00:08:30 – 00:09:09
And I would meet with her before work. I would meet with her after work, and I was doing 12 to 16 hour days. So this was like a commitment to meet with her, but I became so passionate about what it was that she was working on to the point that she eventually asked me to leave my job and cofound this company with her. And I think I thought about it for maybe a few days and felt this full body just yes in response to it. It was a complete conviction that this was what I was meant to do, and it came from this place of genuine excitement and passion.

Alexandra Cole
00:09:10 – 00:09:28
And it was such a departure from how I had lived my life before, which was very much kind of like, mind oriented that the fact and I did. I ended up leaving my job, starting this company with her, and we had no clients. We had no track record. We had no funding. We had no experience.

Alexandra Cole
00:09:28 – 00:10:07
Nothing. We made it all work, but it was a few months after that that I reflected on this this leap and how I was able to make it with so much confidence and conviction when really there was, you know, no logical reason to do so. And it set me on this path of self development, trying to better understand what that was inside of me and why I finally allowed that to make the decision instead of the kind of rational brain. And that’s what ultimately led me to discover human design, which told me, like, hey. Listen.

Alexandra Cole
00:10:07 – 00:10:52
You’re actually here to listen to your gut, to listen to your emotions. And the more I started leaning into that, the more myself I felt. Like, I had I realized that for those past, like, 10, 12 years, I had been kind of a you know, trying again to live up to this expectation that I thought other people had of me, of who I needed to be for them in that moment, and had lost the essence of who I was along the way. And so that’s really what human design allowed me to do. And after several years of just kind of using it to heal myself and to allow myself to grieve in many ways, I started using it with other people, friends and family at first.

Alexandra Cole
00:10:52 – 00:11:14
And over the course of a few years, it kind of blossomed into this side hustle and then something more than a side hustle. And now here I am working with clients every day, helping them better understand, you know, the most aligned use of their energy and how to become a more authentic version of themselves.

Victoria Volk
00:11:15 – 00:11:56
I’m curious too for you. I’m sure I already know the answer. But what if what human design has helped me to is to better understand the environment in which I lived with the people that I shared it with. Right? So for instance, especially a parent, you know, if you don’t have their exact details, you know, birthplace and things like that, it can be a little difficult, but what did that give you when you, when you started to learn more about human design and, and for being so young and losing your mother, did it help you to really get to know her in a way that you couldn’t because she’d passed, you know, through her human design?

Alexandra Cole
00:11:57 – 00:12:06
Such a good question. Yes. It did really help me with that. And, also, it helped me see certain parts of myself that I share with her. Right?

Alexandra Cole
00:12:06 – 00:12:47
And also understand why certain aspects of her are so memorable to me and other parts, you know, you it’s it’s hard for you to understand unless someone else kinda tells a story and you’re like, like, oh, right. I guess she was like that too. One thing that human design really helped me understand, though, is the fact that so my dad is also an emotional. He’s an emotional manifesting generator, and my brother and sister are non emotionals. And so for people who aren’t familiar with human design, what this means is that both my dad and I experience the world first and foremost through our own emotional lens.

Alexandra Cole
00:12:47 – 00:13:34
Like, we have this inherent emotional bias about how we are experiencing everything around us. And we feel our own emotions first and foremost, and they’re very much supposed to inform how we operate. My brother and sister, they feel other people’s emotions first and foremost. So their kind of experience of the world is more shaped by other people’s emotions, and they sometimes have a harder time distinguishing where they end and where someone else begins. And I think with if you think about our kind of family unit, obviously, my dad is going through an insurmountable amount of grief and was making a concerted effort to actually share that grief with us.

Alexandra Cole
00:13:34 – 00:13:43
Right? He took the approach of, I wanna be open with my kids. I wanna talk about how sad I am. Right? And so he did that.

Alexandra Cole
00:13:44 – 00:14:09
But because both my brother and sister are open emotions, they were incredibly sensitive to that. So they picked up on everything and then started kind of absorbing it and carrying that weight. And I think as a 10 year old, I intuitively saw that and decided, you know, there’s not there’s no space for another emotional in this family. Right? Like, I can’t do that same thing.

Alexandra Cole
00:14:09 – 00:15:00
So I’m just gonna kind of, like, shut mine down so that my dad can have that space and we can kind of all absorb or at least maybe even with my siblings. Like, I’m gonna try and shield them from my dad’s emotions, right, instead of add to that kind of, like, fire hose effect. Like, recognizing that and the role that made forced me to play has been really helpful, not just in kind of making sense of kind of my journey, but also making sense in my relationship with my dad and why certain things that he does trigger me so much. Right? And so I think those that, especially in these past kind of 5 years in becoming a mom, I’ve reflected on this a lot, and human design has definitely been, invaluable in that process.

Victoria Volk
00:15:02 – 00:15:05
And how has that shaped how you parent your son?

Alexandra Cole
00:15:05 – 00:15:37
So my son is also an emotional, and my husband is a nonemotional. So I think just knowing what I know about human design, the biggest takeaway here is that kids, a lot of it is nature. Right? They come into this world with a certain set of patterns and behaviors and sensitivities. And as parents, there’s this tendency to want to kind of manage and control that.

Alexandra Cole
00:15:37 – 00:15:55
And we think that’s that we’re protecting them in a way. Right? We think we’re we’re setting them up for success. But, really, what I’ve learned is that the best thing you can do as a parent is kind of do less. Like, step back and allow them to kind of grow into that little human they’re designed to be.

Alexandra Cole
00:15:55 – 00:16:40
And having their human design chart makes that much easier because you can kind of see, oh, wait. Actually, they’re living their design because especially when who they’re designed to be might be different from you or opposite from you in terms of how their emotions work or how they’re designed to communicate or make decisions. We only know what we know and we look at the world again through that kind of, like, biased lens. And so when you’re raising a child, it’s really hard to let go of that, and human design has allowed me to do that. So, for example, when my son has an emotional reaction to something, and he’s a very emotional child because his first reaction is always gonna be this, like, big emotional outburst.

Alexandra Cole
00:16:40 – 00:16:48
My husband’s response to that typically is, you’re okay. You’re okay. You’re okay. There’s no need cry. No tears.

Alexandra Cole
00:16:48 – 00:17:10
No tears. Right? Like, that’s just because he is not emotional, so he doesn’t understand the significance of allowing yourself to kind of feel those feelings. I, on the other hand, and now I’ve also, you know, not trained, but coached my husband to respond in a similar way, I will just give my son a big hug and say, let it out. Let’s ride this emotional wave together.

Alexandra Cole
00:17:10 – 00:17:34
Right? Like, tell me what you’re feeling. Tell me what happened. Right? And I don’t ever try to shut that down because I know that this if I start to kind of manipulate his emotional experience, he is gonna lose it’s like losing a limb, right, for him because it’s such an important way of how he is designed to make sense of the world.

Alexandra Cole
00:17:35 – 00:17:50
And if he doesn’t feel like he can trust it or he feels like it’s wrong to respond emotionally, he’s gonna do what I did for 8 years and pay the price. So that’s just one small example of how I’m using this as a parent.

Victoria Volk
00:17:50 – 00:17:57
And when it comes to grief, that is a massively important example. Massively.

Alexandra Cole
00:17:57 – 00:17:57
Yes. Yeah

Victoria Volk
00:17:58 – 00:18:15
And if you if your child is a manifester, good luck to you. Oh. I know. You know, I’ve learned, like, I was probably just an some sort of enigma to my mother. Like but you know what?

Victoria Volk
00:18:15 – 00:18:23
I learned that my mother was is a projector, which I was like, woah. That makes sense.

Alexandra Cole
00:18:24 – 00:18:47
Yeah. That makes so much sense. And that’s one of the things that I love about human design is it does give it allows you to see other people in a much more objective way, where you can start to understand, oh, this is why I must have been so challenging for my mom. Right? And it is just it doesn’t excuse any behavior.

Alexandra Cole
00:18:47 – 00:19:25
It just gives you a different lens through which to kind of witness and observe and see the things that happened, because, yeah, as a manifester, right, part of what you’re here to do is to trigger people, like, in a way. Right? Like, you are here to challenge people. And sometimes that can feel really uncomfortable. And if as a parent, you’re not cut out for that or you don’t know how to handle that and you’re not aware of where that’s coming from, it can be really challenging.

Alexandra Cole
00:19:25 – 00:19:41
And she would just have wanted to kind of shut your manifesting tendencies down. Right? Or in an effort to protect you, she’s like, you can’t be this big. I need to, like, I need to limit this person. I need to kind of, like, you know, encourage them to control it.

Alexandra Cole
00:19:42 – 00:19:52
Exactly. Exactly. When, really, what a manifester kid needs to be able to do is, like, do their thing. And with complete freedom, throw a tantrum. Right?

Alexandra Cole
00:19:52 – 00:20:12
Like, let it out, get angry, and move on. But if you tell them, like, you can’t do that, that’s not appropriate, That manifestor is gonna grow up to be a shell of who they actually could be. Because, again, they don’t trust any of those, like, inner voices that are communicating to them constantly or trying to.

Victoria Volk
00:20:13 – 00:20:27
Amen to that. I can tell you wholeheartedly. Because I first discovered human design, like, a little over a year ago.

Alexandra Cole
00:20:20 – 00:20:20
Wow!

Victoria Volk
00:20:20 – 00:20:26
So it has been like yeah.

Alexandra Cole
00:20:27 – 00:20:27
Yeah.

Victoria Volk
00:20:27 – 00:20:53
Mind blowing. So since we’re on this topic, can you quickly run down do a rundown of, like, the child You describe the child manifestor because that’s what I am. But can you quickly just kinda describe the other types, energy types.

Alexandra Cole
00:20:40 – 00:20:40
Yeah.

Victoria Volk
00:20:40 – 00:20:53
Children, for people who are listening, who may feel like there’s I I think this can help with conflict within parent child dynamics. So I think it’s I’m glad the conversation went here.

Victoria Volk
00:20:53 – 00:20:53
So.

Alexandra Cole
00:20:54 – 00:21:20
Absolutely. And as I describe it too, this also applies to adults, and to inner children. Like, a lot of the time when I talk about when I, you know, share content through that parenting lens, I get responses from people that say, you know, this helped me so much to heal my inner child Mhmm. And trauma that I experienced as a kid, just understanding what that, like, little version of me must have been experiencing in that moment. So there’s 5 energy types.

Alexandra Cole
00:21:20 – 00:22:13
And just kind of at a very high level, this whole system, human design, essentially, it’s based on your birth time date and place and the energetic frequency that was present in the exact moment you took your first breath. And you wanna imagine it’s like you were imprinted with this energetic frequency. And the chart itself is like that, like, blueprint to how your energy is designed to operate in the most authentic and the most effortless way. Right? Like, when you are listening to that blueprint and operating in alignment with it, there’s this element of flow to life where you’re still gonna encounter challenging situations, but you’ll move through them with a sense of confidence and conviction and trust in your own kind of inner authority to be able to overcome those things.

Alexandra Cole
00:22:14 – 00:23:12
So the foundation of this system is something that we call an energy type, and I often describe it as, like, the outer layer of the onion where there are so many more nuanced layers to the system that get into an incredible amount of detail in terms of, you know, how you’re designed to eat, the types of environments that are most supportive for you, how you’re designed to communicate and emote and all those things. But the first piece to understand is your energy type. There’s 5 different energy types, and each type has a slightly different way of investing energy in order to get the greatest return on that investment in terms of fulfillment and purpose and reward. So we talked about the manifestor and the manifestor little kid. Manifestors, their energy is designed to be quite extreme in terms of highs and lows.

Alexandra Cole
00:23:12 – 00:23:55
Like, they’ll have these, like, huge creative emotional bursts where literally they can go for days on this, like, energetic high, and then it’ll come crashing down and they will need to rest, reset, recharge. But, ultimately, that’s because manifestor’s role in this world is to initiate, to create things, to challenge that status quo and initiate newness and novelty. And so you need a lot of, like, powerful energy to do that, and you also need to not give a damn about everyone else around you. And that’s that triggering piece that I was talking about. And that’s why when you meet a little manifestor kid, they’re just off doing their thing.

Alexandra Cole
00:23:55 – 00:24:04
Right? Like, they get this urge. They need to, you know, dig a hole in the garden. And they just grab the shovel, and they just start digging. Right?

Alexandra Cole
00:24:04 – 00:24:27
They’re not here to ask for permission. They’re not here to look for validation. They’re just here to follow those urges and convictions. And as a parent, again, that can be really triggering because we’re told we have to control our kids, and our kids’ behavior is a reflection on us. And so when that kid just grabs that shovel without asking and starts digging, your immediate reaction is, hey.

Alexandra Cole
00:24:27 – 00:24:54
You didn’t you didn’t ask me. We can’t just do that. Right? And so you can imagine how that leads to a lot of pressure and conditioning for that child to not be themselves and to adapt and adjust. And suddenly, these manifestors start to ask for permission and look for validation, which prevents them from starting the magical movements and things that they are supposed to.

Alexandra Cole
00:24:54 – 00:25:37
So that’s the manifestor kit. Then the second kind of, group I’d like to talk about are projectors. So projectors make up about 20% of the population, and projectors are very much the kind of guides. So if manifestors are here to kind of initiate and be the spark, Projectors are here to refine and guide and optimize. And so projectors actually have a much more moderate ebb and flow of energy, and they are really most effective when they can focus on one thing at a time and dedicate themselves to something for a short intense burst of time, and then they too need to kind of rest and reset.

Alexandra Cole
00:25:37 – 00:26:15
So projector kids are the types of kids that, one, are gonna be fascinated by how things work and kind of optimizing or understanding how to, kind of improve or better something. Like, they love fixing and solving things. And they’re gonna be able to kind of sit quietly working on a puzzle or with some type of toy for that, like, kind of short intense burst of time. And then they’re going to need to kind of rest their mind and sit back and almost observe. Right?

Alexandra Cole
00:26:15 – 00:26:50
There’s a there’s a lot of power for a projector in just being free to observe instead of there being pressure to actually create or output. Projectors sometimes, though, because they have that ability to see how something can be done better, they can come across as quite critical. And if they tend to kind of share their insights and observations without being invited to do so, it can come across as a little bit of a, like, know it all. Right? Or, again, overly, like, a glass half-empty kind of thing.

Alexandra Cole
00:26:50 – 00:27:44
And so for projectors, the name of the game is really learning to wait for that invitation, to wait to be recognized, to wait to be acknowledged, to wait for someone to kind of celebrate your ability to problem solve or your natural gifts that all projectors have and kind of invite you to share those. So if you have a projector child, really being mindful that, like, all they want is for you to see them clearly and for you to invite them to share their gifts. They’re not here to go and initiate in the same way that manifestors are. They’re really here to be a little bit more passive until you invite them in. And they also are gonna need a lot of alone time, and they are going to do best when they have your 1 on 1 attention as opposed to, you know, bigger groups of people, which can be quite overwhelming for that projector initially.

Alexandra Cole
00:27:44 – 00:28:34
Now we get to the largest cohort of people, and that is the generators and the manifesting generators. So these two groups together make up about 70% of the population, and that’s because this group’s energy is very consistent. These generators and manifesting generators are here to almost act as, like, the motors of society in the sense that they have this ability to apply themselves in a very consistent, persistent way to things. And they don’t have that ebb and flow as much as the manifestors and the projectors do. Now for generators and manifesting generators, it’s really important that they are applying that energy to think that excitement excite them and bring them joy.

Alexandra Cole
00:28:34 – 00:29:01
So for them, it’s a really kind of physical response that they will feel towards something. Even, you know, if you have a generator, a manifesting generator child, pay attention to what their body does when they are loving what they’re doing. Right? Whether it’s they’re eating their favorite food and you hear them just go, like, mmm, they, like, start making noises. Or my son, when he’s doing something that he really enjoys, he starts to rock back and forth.

Alexandra Cole
00:29:01 – 00:29:28
Right? Or he does this, like, happy dance. It’s a very physical response. And so as a parent, pay attention to where what gives your kids that physical response because that’s a clear telltale sign that they’re meant to do more of it, that it’s a great use of their time and energy. When generators and manifesting generators are forced to do things that don’t really excite them or light them up, it’ll be quite draining.

Alexandra Cole
00:29:28 – 00:30:35
But because they have that consistent source of energy, they don’t necessarily hit that point of burnout like a manifestor or a projector will. And so what’s really hard is that most adult generators and manifesting generators have been conditioned to basically be these martyrs that say yes to every request, do a lot of stuff for other people because it makes that other person happy, and they happen to have the energetic capacity to do so. But they’ve lost touch with what actually brings them joy and what excites them. And so they’re operating at, you know, 50 to 60% of their full potential, and that full potential can only be accessed when they prioritize their own joy and excitement. And so as a parent of a young generator and manifesting generator, helping them recognize that, helping them realize that, like, they don’t have to say yes to doing what other people want them to do, and it is completely valid to prioritize their own needs and what brings them joy, even over yours as the parent.

Alexandra Cole
00:30:35 – 00:31:11
Right? Like, that’s a really important lesson for them to learn. The slight difference between these two types is that whereas generators can be a little bit more focused in their application of energy, manifesting generators are nonlinear beings, and that they have a little bit of that manifestor erratic nature while they will move very quickly from one interest to the other, and they love a variety of things. And they’re like I mean, with my son, for example, I’ve learned to never clean up after him because I think he’s done. And I then, as the generator mom, I’m like, okay.

Alexandra Cole
00:31:11 – 00:31:34
I’m gonna start to organize and clean this up. But, actually, he wants to circle back to it an hour from now after he’s, like, pulled out another 5 other toys. Right? And when we’re on an airplane, I have to have, like, you know, 20 different activities versus if I had a projector child, maybe I just need 3 and he could play with each for an hour. My son needs to just, like, constantly cycle through things.

Alexandra Cole
00:31:35 – 00:32:16
So that’s the generator manifesting generator, and then the very last type is a reflector. And reflectors are just as the name suggests. They’re like these magical unicorn snowflake kids that are highly sensitive and really designed to reflect the health and well-being of whatever community that they are a part of. So they are the product of their environment in many ways, And a reflector is like a mirror. So, if you have a reflector in your family, looking at them and how they’re doing and how they’re showing up and what their health and well-being is like is going to tell you what’s going on with the rest of the family.

Alexandra Cole
00:32:17 – 00:32:44
Because they are constantly absorbing everyone else’s energy, emotions, fears. Right? All of that. And in a way, they are then reflecting that back to you. And so for reflector children, it’s really important for them to understand how to manage this hypersensitivity because it can really throw you.

Alexandra Cole
00:32:44 – 00:33:12
Right? Because you can be feeling totally good, and then one person walks into the room. Right? Or one kid comes to class that day and is dealing with something really, really and you don’t even know what it is, but you feel in your body suddenly this grief or pain or anger that isn’t yours, and yet you’re still experiencing it as if it is. And so that’s something that is a lot for a little child to handle.

Alexandra Cole
00:33:12 – 00:33:57
And you might notice that reflectors do get sick more frequently. They do feel overwhelmed a lot depending and they’re very sensitive to environment, people as well as just, like, the energy and the vibe of the setting that they’re in. So as a parent, the best thing that you can do with a Reflector Child is teach them that a lot of the time what they’re experiencing isn’t actually theirs to carry. Right? And, also, be super mindful of, like, what are the environments and people that they seem most at peace around, and how can I make sure we’re spending most of our time in those types of places and avoiding the people that seem to, like, have the greatest triggering effect on them?

Victoria Volk
00:33:58 – 00:33:59
That was a lot.

Alexandra Cole
00:33:59 – 00:33:59
I know.

Victoria Volk
00:34:00 – 00:34:00
Thank you so much.

Victoria Volk
00:34:00 – 00:34:15
No. In a good way. In a in a good way because I hope people listening can are reflecting on their own lives and take from what you shared and apply it. And, hopefully, they already know their body type or their energy type.

Alexandra Cole
00:34:15 – 00:34:16
Energy type.

Victoria Volk
00:34:16 – 00:34:38
Yep. And or have their design. Right? They know their design. And if you don’t, I’m gonna put a link in the show notes where you can find that information out and then come back and listen to this again and find your children’s human design and listen to this, like, 2 or 3 times if you have to really take in what was shared because I think it’s so important.

Victoria Volk
00:34:38 – 00:34:49
The stuff that we I can’t even imagine being a reflector. Like, that just sounds so exhausting to me. Do I even know a reflector? I don’t even know if I know a reflector.

Alexandra Cole
00:34:50 – 00:34:54
I mean, they’re 1 only 1% of the population. So it’s possible that you don’t.

Victoria Volk
00:34:54 – 00:34:57
Well, in manifestors are, like, 9%. Right?

Alexandra Cole
00:34:57 – 00:34:57
Mmm.Yup

Victoria Volk
00:34:57 – 00:35:08
So we’re kind of a rare breed too in a way, but no. Thank you so much for all of that. It’s just good for me. I’ve heard it, you know, I’ve heard it in other ways. And it’s when you hear it a different way, it’s just yeah.

Victoria Volk
00:35:08 – 00:35:27
I really love that. So thank you so much. I wanna go back to, like, your story though, and, like, how this all kind of played out, like, so with your relationship so when you first met your now husband, did you know his human design? Were you into human design? Not not at that time.

Victoria Volk
00:35:27 – 00:35:28
Not yet.

Alexandra Cole
00:35:28 – 00:35:30
Nope. Not yet at all.

Victoria Volk
00:35:30 – 00:35:30
Yeah.

Alexandra Cole
00:35:31 – 00:35:56
Yep. And it’s been I I often credit human design to, you know, the fact that we still have a thriving relationship now 16 years later. Because neither of us were really planning on meeting our person that young. We still wanted to do a lot and travel a lot. And we, especially him, needed a lot of freedom to explore all those things before we settled down.

Alexandra Cole
00:35:56 – 00:36:29
So we didn’t get married until 10 years after we met, and then we took another few years before we had our son. But learning about his human design allowed me to be such a better partner for him because up until I learned about it, there were certain aspects. So he’s a projector, right, which, like I said, projectors need a lot of alone time. And I remember so distinctly, even in college too, you know, we’d have these, like, free afternoons. And my immediate response was, great.

Alexandra Cole
00:36:29 – 00:36:50
Let’s go do something. And you could tell he did not want to. Sometimes he kind of appeased me, but most of the time, it’s like, I just I just kinda wanna be by myself in my room. And I could not understand, and I would take it personally. So I would assume, oh, he’s not into me or he’s not into me as much as I’m into him.

Alexandra Cole
00:36:50 – 00:37:25
Right? And when I discovered that he was a projector, it all made so much sense. And I could finally stop taking those things personally because he would just sit in his room and watch a movie. And in my head, I’m like, well, I could just watch the movie with you, but it wouldn’t have been the same. Like, he really needed to be in his own aura, his own energy in order to fully recharge from the just busyness of being in college and playing a sport and you know, the whole social scene and life, like, that was really important for him.

Alexandra Cole
00:37:25 – 00:38:27
And I wish I knew in college because it would have saved me a lot of anxiety. But especially now also, you know, becoming parents and understanding, for example, that for a projector, starting his day slowly is really really supportive and allows him to show up more fully as a dad and as a partner later on in the day. Whereas for me, as a generator, I kind of wake up and immediate this is not true for all generators, but for me, I kind of have this, like, you know, steady current of energy that I can use as a parent. And so I take the majority of the morning shifts because I know that then later on, if I need him around dinner time, my husband’s gonna be present and ready to go. But if I or on the mornings where he does have to do the, you know, 6:30, 7 AM wake up, by the end of the day, he’s shot, and he needs more of that solo time to recharge.

Alexandra Cole
00:38:27 – 00:39:12
So it’s just learning to understand that and then not comparing his energetic outputs, right, to mine because they’re incomparable, and one isn’t better than the other. It’s just different. So when he has a solo weekend, for example, my husband knows that he can only be on, quote unquote, as that parent for 2, 3 hours at a time comfortably before it starts to become really really difficult. So he will, in advance, make sure he’s got his parents that are gonna take a little window, that we’ve got a babysitter that might take the little window to set him up for success. Whereas I am much better able to just kind of grind it out for 48 hours.

Alexandra Cole
00:39:12 – 00:39:36
Right? And for me, the more important thing is making sure that throughout the day, I get to do things that excite me and bring me joy and that I get to take my son to, like, my favorite coffee shop or treat us to, you know, a delicious dinner or get an hour at my, like, favorite Pilates studio. Like, that’s much more important to me and is not at all significant to my husband in that case.

Victoria Volk
00:39:36 – 00:39:45
I love that. What’s interesting is that I learned that my husband and I, he’s like the male version of me. We’re both

Alexandra Cole
00:39:45 – 00:39:47
Is he also a manifestor?

Victoria Volk
00:39:47 – 00:39:51
4, 6 emotional manifestor. Exactly.

Alexandra Cole
00:39:49 – 00:39:50
Wow.

Victoria Volk
00:39:51 – 00:39:51
He and I both.

Alexandra Cole
00:39:52 – 00:39:53
What are the odds? Like, that

Victoria Volk
00:39:53 – 00:40:12
Like what are the Odds? I 20 years. 20 years. But just knowing the things that I know, like, I’ve been kinda digging into the gates of love, which really has I mean, we have a lot of these, what are they called?

Victoria Volk
00:40:13 – 00:40:14
The gates of compromise?

Alexandra Cole
00:40:14 – 00:40:16
Yeah. Compromise channels.

Victoria Volk
00:40:16 – 00:40:41
Yeah. We have, like, 5 of them.

Alexandra Cole
00:40:18 – 00:40:18
Mhmm.

Victoria Volk
00:40:18 – 00:40:41
And so just learning about those has been really eye opening and, like, just how he, like, you know, he’s he’s such a giver of of love and affection and, like, being the provider. And and when he’s not feeling like he’s getting something , getting that in return, like, the equivalent of that, like, he can feel a little bit of

Alexandra Cole
00:40:41 – 00:40:43
Taken for granted. He got anger.

Victoria Volk
00:40:43 – 00:40:43
Exactly. Yeah.

Alexandra Cole
00:40:43 – 00:40:43
Yeah.

Victoria Volk
00:40:43 – 00:40:53
So as a manifestor, anger is not our self theme. So when I feel myself getting angry about anything, it’s, oh, what what’s going on?

Alexandra Cole
00:40:54 – 00:41:22
And that’s another really good one to be aware of in partners and in kids too. Right? Because each of those energy types I just described has, you you know, what Victoria just mentioned, this not self theme, which is basically what comes up when you are compromising on your natural energetic pattern. And so for manifestors, that’s anger. So if you notice your child getting angry, your manifestor kid, it’s usually just a sign that they’re being limited in some way.

Alexandra Cole
00:41:22 – 00:42:05
They’re being forced to not listen to that, like, urge that they want to follow or pursue. And for a generator or manifesting generator, it’s gonna be frustration. So if you notice your child getting frustrated, right, or feeling more of that, like, stuck, that frustrated energy, that’s usually a sign that they’re being forced to do many thing too many things that don’t light them up, that aren’t exciting to them. And as a projector, the not-self is bitterness or a lot of the times it comes across as resentment. So if a projector is, you know, not being invited or recognized enough or they feel like they’re pushing themselves too hard beyond their energetic capacity.

Alexandra Cole
00:42:05 – 00:42:29
Right? They’re not given enough time to rest and recharge. They’ll start to get resentful about that. And then reflectors, the final one is disappointment. So if you notice that a reflector is, like, constantly disappointed in themselves or in the world and they just feel let down, that’s a sign that they probably, aren’t in the right environment.

Alexandra Cole
00:42:29 – 00:42:44
Right? That they’re not surrounded by the right people and that they are not able to or that they have absorbed far too much of everyone else’s energy and don’t really know what to do with it or can’t figure out how to let it go.

Victoria Volk
00:42:44 – 00:43:04
So how has this information helped you specifically? Because I’m sure you’ve had more grieving experiences since your mom’s passing, but how has the losses you’ve experienced since then? Been in how do I wanna word this? I think you know what I’m getting at. But, like

Alexandra Cole
00:43:04 – 00:43:04
Mhmm.

Victoria Volk
00:43:05 – 00:43:05
How do you use

Alexandra Cole
00:43:05 – 00:43:08
How do I use human design to support that process?

Victoria Volk
00:43:08 – 00:43:17
Yes. And where would one look at their human design to see where like, where are some areas for people to look in at their human design when it comes to grief?

Alexandra Cole
00:43:17 – 00:44:00
So it’s helped me in so many ways, and 3 come to mind immediately. The first being the energy type piece, and this is mostly around how to support yourself best as you go through that grief. So, again, for me, I know I’m going to feel most like myself and most energized when I am creating enough space to do things that light me up and bring me joy. So even in the face of well, especially in the face of grief, that becomes that much more important, right, to carve out that time for myself. And for projectors, for example, rest becomes that much more important that you’re not pushing yourself.

Alexandra Cole
00:44:01 – 00:44:32
And for manifestors, like, honoring your energetic ups and downs and your desires in that moment and letting go of what other people think becomes that much more important when you’re going through grief. So that’s one. The other piece is that emotional center that we already talked about. So I know that for me, it’s really important for me to allow myself to feel my feelings and to ride that wave. And I can now almost enjoy that process in a weird way.

Alexandra Cole
00:44:32 – 00:44:47
Right? Because I know it’s gonna I know that wave is gonna crash at some moment. Usually, there’s this wave like pattern to emotions, which I think also very much mirrors grief, right, where it kind of, like, comes rolling in. It builds. It builds.

Alexandra Cole
00:44:47 – 00:45:05
It builds. Then there’s this crescendo moment where you’re feeling so much. And then, eventually, that wave crashes, and you kind of find yourself bobbing at the surface in more of kind of that cool, calm, collected space. And you’re still feeling, but the charge has disappeared. Like, it’s less overwhelming.

Alexandra Cole
00:45:06 – 00:45:30
And so understanding that pattern has helped me a lot because I can kind of gauge where I am on that wave, and I can know, okay, it’s gonna crash soon, and that’s the place where I really wanna sit and reflect for a little bit. And be like, okay. What is what is this feeling trying to tell me? Because I know for me that the feelings are always trying to communicate something. So that’s another piece.

Alexandra Cole
00:45:30 – 00:45:55
I allow myself to really sit with things more as opposed to feel like I need to act or do something to resolve it. I know that that wave pattern is gonna continue to exist. Whereas, if you are an open emotional or a non emotional, so that emotional center is what we call undefined and you know you’re more sensitive to other people. If you’re going through grief, you might actually wanna isolate a little bit more. Right?

Alexandra Cole
00:45:55 – 00:46:36
You might actually wanna remove yourself from the other grieving people because you it will almost overshadow your ability to kind of sit with your own grief because you’re gonna be feeling everyone else’s and then feel pressure, right, to respond to that or do something about their grief. So that’s a really helpful insight. And then the last thing that I’d say is looking at profile. So there’s this element in human design called profile, which speaks more to your personality and really to the how, to, like, how you approach things in life. And there’s 12 different profiles, and each profile consists of two numbers.

Alexandra Cole
00:46:37 – 00:47:14
And each of the numbers in the profile represent, like, an archetype that lives within you. So when Victoria was just saying we’re both 4 6 manifestors, the 4 6 is her profile and her husband’s profile. Each of these numbers also can tell you a little bit about, like, how you might process grief most effectively. So really quickly, the number one is known as the investigator archetype. So these are people who will want to know as much as possible and get into the research and feel most comfortable when they have all the data points and all the information.

Alexandra Cole
00:47:15 – 00:47:40
Right? So, for example, when it comes to grieving, these might be the people if, let’s say, it has something to do with an illness. Their immediate thing is I’m gonna research everything that, like, possible about this particular illness and, like, what the statistics are saying or they might delve into, I want to understand like the science behind grief and, like, what the different stages are. Right? Like, that’s very much the, like, one line.

Alexandra Cole
00:47:40 – 00:48:46
The 2, number 2 line is the naturally gifted person. It’s the person who, kind of picks things up very easily, intuitively, and naturally, doesn’t really need to study anything, but just knows in their bones certain things to be true or how to do certain things, Twos benefit a lot from alone time and having the ability to kind of in a safe cocoon-like space do their thing. So in times of grief, a 2 might feel like they really they just wanna, like, close the door to their bedroom and cry or journal or whatever that might look like, but they might feel this need to wanna do it themselves and to really get, like, fully absorbed in their own process and whatever feels good to them at that moment in time to move through it. Threes are like the experimenters. Threes are the the people who learn best through trial and error and throwing stuff against the wall and seeing what sticks.

Alexandra Cole
00:48:46 – 00:48:57
So if you’re a 3 and you’re grieving, you might try all the different things. You might try a certain form of therapy. You might try journaling. You might try painting. You might try meditation.

Alexandra Cole
00:48:58 – 00:49:22
Right? And you just keep kind of, like, whatever you hear about or whatever sparks your interest, I encourage you to experiment with it and see if it supports you and feel supportive. Because the only way you’re gonna figure out what is going to help you through this grieving process is by just trying a lot of different things. And you won’t know just from hearing it from a friend. Right?

Alexandra Cole
00:49:22 – 00:49:39
And just because it worked for the friend doesn’t mean it’s gonna work for you. You’ve gotta try it for yourself. Then there’s the 4. Fours are the relationship oriented people who are very sensitive to the quality of the relationships in their life. They’re very gifted connectors.

Alexandra Cole
00:49:40 – 00:50:21
They’re also people who, you know, get equally as lit up by social interactions as they can get exhausted by them, but it’s this, like, love hate relationship. Right? As you as you probably know, Victoria. So for fours, though, the support system is really really key when it comes to grief, making sure that you feel like you have those individuals in your life that you can vent to that are gonna show up for you, and being very aware of, like, what are the resources that I need, human resources as well as otherwise, in order to feel most supportive supported during this time. 5 is the problem solver.

Alexandra Cole
00:50:22 – 00:50:46
5 are the people who just immediately go into, like, fix it mode. Fives are also very much like, they feel a lot of responsibility. I have a 5. So you can see how, right, as a kid, my immediate reaction was, like, I’m gonna go into problem solving. I’m going to be the person that everyone in my family can rely on, and so that means shutting down my own emotions.

Alexandra Cole
00:50:46 – 00:51:33
So fives oftentimes have a lot going on below the surface that no one can see because they feel like they have to uphold a certain level of kind of responsibility, and they really hate disappointing other people. And they don’t like feeling vulnerable even though the vulnerability is actually the key for them. So for fives, finding even the one person or the one setting in which you can truly be vulnerable and allow that hard outer shell to kind of, like, disappear for a moment in times of grief is essential. Because in most situations, you’re gonna wanna be that, like, problem solver, and you can’t always be that. You need to also take care of yourself and your own needs in that sense.

Alexandra Cole
00:51:34 – 00:52:12
And then the last number, the 6, is the role model, and sixes are people who are wise beyond their years. They’re kind of these, like, natural advisers, very fair, very objective, and very reflective too. So for sixes as you’re going through grief, a lot of it will be reflecting on and observing kind of what’s coming up for me, what might that mean in almost like a bird’s eye view type of way. Right? Like, very much kind of, feeling almost like a little bit removed as if you’re looking at yourself going through that grieving process.

Alexandra Cole
00:52:13 – 00:52:45
But sixes might also, again, feel pressure to, play that role model part and therefore also not get, like, pulled under by their grief. And so it’s important for sixes to kind of still lean into that other number that they have because you always have 2 numbers in order to help them actually do that work because they’re very quickly gonna wanna go into, okay, what have I learned from this grief, and how can I now use that to support other people through the same process?

Victoria Volk
00:52:45 – 00:52:50
This has been gold. Just absolute gold. I how are you on time?

Alexandra Cole
00:52:50 – 00:52:54
I’m good. I probably should start wrapping it up though soon.

Victoria Volk
00:52:55 – 00:53:27
Okay. Oh, because I wanted to talk more about your story a little bit more, but, I wanna ask though quickly. So knowing what you know now, like, what gives you the most hope for the future? And, also, what is it about human design that you feel, you can bring into or how what would you suggest for Grievers to that’s not even a good question either. I’m trying to I wanna ask, like, a 1,000,000 questions right now because I’m I’m pressure root center.

Alexandra Cole
00:53:28 – 00:53:30
Mhmm. Just let it let it sit. You’ll get there.

Victoria Volk
00:53:32 – 00:53:48
Okay. What would you like to share? What do you think? I’m gonna just I’m gonna put it in your hands because you know human design far beyond my my capabilities. So what do you think is most important for people to know that you haven’t shared already?

Victoria Volk
00:53:48 – 00:53:57
And also the most important lesson and things that you have gotten from human design that you’re taking forward and that you’re utilizing in your life.

Alexandra Cole
00:53:57 – 00:54:28
I think I’ll keep it as simple and succinct as possible and say that the whole system of human design is built on this premise of differentiation, science of differentiation. Like, each of us is designed intentionally to be unique and different in terms of the way our energy works. And that, by definition, means that everyone is designed to grieve differently. Right? Like, there is no one size fits all approach to grief.

Alexandra Cole
00:54:28 – 00:54:59
And so I really encourage you to, you know, find some type of solace in that too. Right? That, like, just because, you know, something worked for someone else in your life and it’s not working for you, it doesn’t mean there’s anything wrong with you. It just means that you haven’t found the most aligned way for you to process that grief. And a lot of it comes down to understanding yourself on this, like, whole another level and trusting yourself.

Alexandra Cole
00:54:59 – 00:55:44
And I think that, again, we live in a world that puts so much pressure on us to be a certain way, to operate in a certain way. There’s a very clear right and wrong way to do things. And as a result, we compromise on or shut down and ignore those inner voices that, as kids, are much louder and then as adults kind of fade away into the background. And I hope that the grieving process serves as a way for you to start to get to know those voices again, to start to hear them more clearly, to start to kind of shut out all the shoulds that you’re feeling pressure to live up to from the outside world and really tune into what do I need, what does my body want. Right?

Alexandra Cole
00:55:45 – 00:56:26
How am I responding to whatever it is that you might be facing in that moment in time? Because if you can allow the grieving process to do that, you will come out on the other end so much stronger and more aligned and in tune with who you are really here to be. And if nothing else, right, that the grieving process is such a powerful way of just, like, shedding more layers and coming closer to, like, that authentic self. So accept and embrace this idea that we’re all here to do things differently and use this as an opportunity to kind of get to know what that unique recipe looks like for you.

Victoria Volk
00:56:27 – 00:56:29
I actually have a program. It’s called do grief differently.

Alexandra Cole
00:56:30 – 00:56:33
There you go. I didn’t even know that. See?

Victoria Volk
00:56:33 – 00:57:09
But it is a framework, and it is evidence-based. And so as I’m listening to you, I’m like, I’ve seen this work for so many different types of people, so many different personalities, of course, so many different energy types. Right? And so it is like, it is very much about digging into the emotional climate within you. And it’s individualized because it’s it’s a framework that you apply to your grief, not to your neighbor’s grief, your mother’s grief, your sister’s grief, your brother’s grief, whatever.

Victoria Volk
00:57:09 – 00:57:21
And I think that’s why it works because it’s individualized to you in your experience. And I think that’s why it works. But thank you so much. I absolutely loved this. I seriously have loved this.

Victoria Volk
00:57:21 – 00:57:55
I geek out on human design. I’m still in my own explore more exploration and experiment to, of course, and I think that will be a forever ongoing thing. I am a huge proponent of anything that helps us understand ourselves better because I think the most important thing that we can give ourselves is compassion and grace. Not like a grace as a past, but a grace of just self-grace for being able to honor yourself, who you are in the moment, and given yourself that compassion that maybe you didn’t receive growing up. Because of who you were.

Victoria Volk
00:57:55 – 00:58:11
I love Human Design for that reason. Clearly, it’s been a gift for you in your grief experience. And I really, I would love to have you back sometime again, because this was so good. This was really so good. So I really appreciate your time today.

Victoria Volk
00:58:11 – 00:58:16
And, yeah, just so so many so much thanks to you for sharing.

Alexandra Cole
00:58:16 – 00:58:18
Thank you for having me.

Victoria Volk
00:58:18 – 00:58:32
I’m so impressed. Like, you just, like didn’t have to look up notes. Like, you knew it, like, the back of your hand. So I’m very impressed by that and impressed by you and everything that you shared today. Anything else you would like to share?

Alexandra Cole
00:58:32 – 00:58:50
No. I think that’s it. And just thank you for the work that you do too. I mean, I have there’s a special place in my heart for grief and finding frameworks and support to, you know, guide people through those moments in life. So thank you for the work you’re doing as well.

Victoria Volk
00:58:50 – 00:58:56
So how can people work with you? Because you have 2 websites. Right? You have 2 different websites.

Alexandra Cole
00:58:57 – 00:59:34
Yeah. I have 2 different websites. One of them is more just my personal website where you can book sessions, 1 on 1 sessions. Although I will say, because I’m about to have a baby, those sessions will pick up again in May or June, I would say. So that’s alexandracole.com. For all my other offerings and products, it’s thrivingbydesign.com, and that’s where you can find the wellness report or the well-being report that Victoria was talking about at the beginning, which takes your chart and translates it essentially into your optimal recipe for well-being.

Alexandra Cole
00:59:34 – 01:00:16
And we look at everything from rest and nourishment to mental and emotional health. So a lot of the things that we touched on today will come through in that report, but it’s very specific to well-being. It’s not, like, a broad overview of your chart, let’s say. I also, on that website, have something called Raised by Design, which is for parents who want to, at a very high level, understand their child’s design. It’s like a 20 page summary of just kind of the, like, main points that you need to understand with very tactical strategies for how to actually support your child in that way, in the most aligned way.

Victoria Volk
01:00:16 – 01:00:18
And that’s specific to your child’s chart.

Alexandra Cole
01:00:18 – 01:00:21
Correct? That’s specific to your child’s chart.

Victoria Volk
01:00:21 – 01:00:21
Gold, people.

Alexandra Cole
01:00:22 – 01:00:22
Yeah.

Victoria Volk
01:00:23 – 01:00:23
That’s gold.

Alexandra Cole
01:00:24 – 01:00:36
Yeah. So I mean, there’s a lot of other also free resources and different things on Thriving by Design, but those are 2 reports that I, you know, are worth calling out specifically.

Victoria Volk
01:00:36 – 01:00:37
How about the purpose playbook?

Alexandra Cole
01:00:38 – 01:01:22
The purpose playbook is my book that I wrote, you know, after that experience of just kind of leaving the corporate world and reflecting on, you know, what allowed me to do that with so much conviction and confidence. It doesn’t actually even talk about human design. It’s very much like a framework for helping people pinpoint, like, what their purpose and mission is in this life and how to go pursue it in a aligned way. So I wrote that book back in 2019, came out in 2020. So if you’re looking for more of the kind of step by step process to articulate and live out your purpose in life, that’s that’s a really helpful resource too.

Victoria Volk
01:01:22 – 01:01:27
I bet you could come up with a second book knowing what you know now.

Alexandra Cole
01:01:27 – 01:01:36
Maybe. I know. I know. It’s just such a big endeavor, and I’ve been you know, my biggest projects these past few years have been kids. So once I get past that, who knows?

Alexandra Cole
01:01:36 – 01:01:37
The next will be a book.

Victoria Volk
01:01:38 – 01:02:26
Quickly, the few things that from the ebook, I just wanna share from the well by design. For me, it was so surprising things were, exercise in the afternoon to cleanse my system, which I found I naturally tend to do that sometimes. I was very surprised to learn that I don’t need much food to, yeah, I don’t need as much food to feel nourished, which I was really surprising to me because I’ve just went through a coaching thing and, you know, a lot of it was like macros, and I had to eat so much food, so much food, and I had so much energy, but, you know, I could tell my something was waning at some I know it’s a point, you know, when it came to my digestion and stuff. So that was interesting. And not surprising is that I’m prone to overthinking, which but it’s so good too.

Victoria Volk
01:02:26 – 01:02:42
So I really highly recommend that people check that out. And I’ll put all of the information in the show notes, but I just wanted to quickly share that. Yes. The well by design report is excellent. I the raise by design, get your hands on it because, you know, your children are a product of your parenting.

Victoria Volk
01:02:42 – 01:02:42
Right?

Alexandra Cole
01:02:44 – 01:02:54
100%. Yeah. In a way. They’re they’re actually very like, they have their own makeup, but as a parent, you can either support or negate it. And that’s the key.

Alexandra Cole
01:02:54 – 01:03:04
Right? Like, we wanna actually, as parents, encourage them to become more of themselves as opposed to more of what the world expects them or wants them to be.

Victoria Volk
01:03:04 – 01:03:14
Yeah. No pressure.

Alexandra Cole
01:03:05 – 01:03:05
I know.

Victoria Volk
01:03:05 – 01:03:14
But I think when it comes to grief, right, this is why this information is so important and why I wanted to have you on. So thank you.

Victoria Volk
01:03:14 – 01:03:17
Thank you again. Thank you again for being here.

Alexandra Cole
01:03:17 – 01:03:19
Of course. My pleasure. Thank you for having me.

Victoria Volk
01:03:19 – 01:03:24
And remember, when you unleash your heart, you unleash your life. Much love.

 

Ep 178 Mandy Capehart | The Integration of Grief and Restoration of Self

Mandy Capehart | The Integration of Grief and Restoration of Self

 

SHOW NOTES SUMMARY:

In this week’s heartfelt episode, we dive into the complexities of grief with my special guest, Mandy Capehart – a trauma-informed certified grief educator and somatic embodiment life coach.

Mandy shares her journey through grief, which led her to establish the Restorative Grief Project, an online community dedicated to supporting grievers and those who stand by them. Her book, “Restorative Grief: Embracing Our Losses Without Losing Ourselves,” is a blend of memoir and practical guidebook that offers insight into managing loss.

We touch on topics like:

  • The universality of experiencing loss
  • Moving beyond minimizing pain
  • Navigating uncertainty in times of sorrow
  • How our upbringing shapes our understanding of grief

Mandy also delves into how COVID-19 has highlighted the need for greater ‘grief literacy’ – acknowledging that you don’t need death as a reason to grieve. She emphasizes validating experiences rather than dismissing them and discusses how she uses storytelling as a tool for connection and healing.

Moreover, Mandy opens up about personal losses such as miscarriages, providing raw insights into the emotional turmoil they entail while calling out common misconceptions surrounding them.

This episode is not just about dealing with grief but learning from it, embracing vulnerability, and engaging in deeper conversations instead of hiding behind social niceties or sugarcoated interactions.

This conversation provides solace and guidance for anyone grappling with loss or seeking ways to support others in their grieving process.

Key Takeaway:
Grief isn’t solely triggered by death; it encompasses various forms of personal loss and change. The conversation challenges us to confront cultural tendencies that often minimize these experiences or avoid deep discussions.

Mandy’s insights remind us that grieving is not just an emotional process but one that touches every fiber of our being – physically, mentally, and spiritually.

Your story matters. Your pain deserves recognition. And together, we can find pathways toward restoration.

RESOURCES:

CONNECT:

Episode Sponsor: Magic Mind | Use the code “GRIEVINGVOICES” to receive one month free with a 3-month subscription. This special promotion is only for January!

_______

NEED HELP?

  • National Suicide Prevention Lifeline: 1-800-273-8255
  • Crisis Text Line provides free, 24/7 support via text message. Text HOME to 741741 to connect with a trained Crisis Counselor

If you are struggling with grief due to any of the 40+ losses, free resources are available HERE.

CONNECT WITH VICTORIA:

Victoria Volk
00:00:00 – 00:00:16
Thank you for tuning in to grieving voices., If this is your first time listening, welcome., And if you are returning and listening again, thank you for coming back. Today, my guest is Mandy Capehart. She is a trauma-informed certified grief educator and somatic embodiment life coach.

Victoria Volk
00:00:17 – 00:00:47
She’s an author, speaker, and master mindset coach located in the Pacific Northwest. She is the founder of the Restorative Grief Project, an online community of grievers and grief supporters looking for movement while they heal. Her own experience with grief left her searching for resources while offering empathetic long term support without minimizing the pain of the moment. When she found nothing, she created it for herself and for you. Her first book is Titled Restorative Grief, Embracing Our Losses Without Losing Ourselves was released in 2021.

Victoria Volk
00:00:48 – 00:01:19
And this is a memoir and a 31-day guidebook for managing grief and growth in the aftermath of loss, no matter how long it lasts. You can hear more about her work on her podcast, Restorative Grief with Mandy Capehart, or consider working with her 1 on 1 on her website. She has all the resources and I will put those links in the show notes. And she’s a storyteller through and through and always in pursuit of adventure, grace, and opportunities to express gratitude. No matter the medium, her work revolves around learning how to honor our process of becoming.

Victoria Volk
00:01:19 – 00:01:29
She currently lives in Southern Oregon with her husband, daughter, Border Collie Rescue Pup and way too many houseplants. Thank you so much for being here. I too have way too many houseplants. I am told.

Mandy Capehart
00:01:29 – 00:01:43
I know., Right. I mean, I loved houseplants before the pandemic, but it was an easy hobby for me. I think I was up to, like, 95 at one point before I just said, this is a problem. I don’t wanna just let these die, but I also don’t know what to do.

Mandy Capehart
00:01:43 – 00:01:51
And so we’re down to probably a solid 40 now. We’ve recovered. They didn’t die. They were lovingly rehomed, but yeah,

Victoria Volk
00:01:51 – 00:02:05
I have not counted mine, but I know it’s not 40, but I went from like 0 to just kind of like an obsession. I just kept buying and kept buying. Oh, I need another plant. I need another plant.

Mandy Capehart
00:02:05 – 00:02:24
Well, we needed the dopamine. We needed the immediate gratification of something beautiful in our home. We can justify it because plants clarify the air and there are so many collect. It’s like, you know, us elder millennials are, like, barely on the cusp of when Pokemon was, like, practically Introduced. We gotta catch them all.

Mandy Capehart
00:02:24 – 00:02:31
We have to collect every variety of Echeveria that exists. And until then, I will not be satisfied.

Victoria Volk
00:02:32 – 00:02:35
I know it’s like people walk in, welcome to the jungle.

Mandy Capehart
00:02:35 – 00:02:39
Yeah, exactly. It was very, humid in our home for a while.

Victoria Volk
00:02:40 – 00:02:53
I bet. But you know what?, Like you said, it puts oxygen in the air. And when especially living in, like, a rainy climate like yourself or like a snowy cold climate like I where I live and dry. I need all the nature inside.

Mandy Capehart
00:02:53 – 00:02:56
I can get everything I can. Yes. That’s right.

Victoria Volk
00:02:57 – 00:03:18
So we’re not talking about houseplants today. But if we were I’m sure there’s a podcast for that there’s a podcast for everything. That’s right. But today we’re talking about grief, which fortunately for you and I is becoming much more talked about and the work that we were doing. And I think COVID but a huge spotlight on that for everybody.

Victoria Volk
00:03:19 – 00:03:44
Like, hey, nobody has to die for you to grieve. Right? And so I guess let’s, I really want to start out with  kind of your origin story as to what led you into the work that you’re doing today, because I know firsthand for myself and everyone that I’ve talked to on this podcast for every guest I’ve had, their work is really born out of their story. So where would you like to begin?

Mandy Capehart
00:03:45 – 00:04:35
Yeah, we’ve got this legacy as wounded healers. And when we get to that
point of recognizing where the needle moved for us, we can start to develop a way to, offer it to others. And so for me, I don’t remember a time in my life that I didn’t have some form of grief event, whether it was a person dying, a person moving away, divorce, relationship loss, illness. There was always something or someone leaving my world, my circle of influence. And so I, as a young person, did what we all do and stuffed it down and became very outwardly loud and big and vivacious and tried to live a very happy, playful life because I didn’t have the tools to navigate the loss I was experiencing.

Mandy Capehart
00:04:35 – 00:05:08
And that’s not to say that my parents didn’t know what they were doing because in a lot of ways they did, but at the same time, they were also very young when they had me. And so as we all experienced these losses together, including their, divorce when I was pretty young, I think I was 9. It doesn’t It just didn’t translate until I was older. And so, instead of giving you a list all the people I’ve lost in stories, I’m just gonna jump ahead because when my mom died in 2016, this month, it’ll be 7 years, I think. That right?

Mandy Capehart
00:05:08 – 00:05:30
Good math. It was pretty sudden. It was after after a few months of cancer treatment and unexpected, illness on top of that. And so I spent the next 4 years quitting everything I knew. I stepped down from being a worship leader of 16 years at my church.

Mandy Capehart
00:05:30 – 00:06:15
I pulled away from the career, I almost became a youth pastor so that I could move closer to being near her. It would have been the absolute worst position for me and all the children would have like perished under my anger because I was in so much pain, but I was willing to do anything to try and get close to her while she was going through, treatment. And I’m very grateful that didn’t happen. But I realized in 2020 when January started, I was starting the year with a miscarriage with the anniversary of losing my mom with a job loss and with a former employer, spreading gossip about me. And so I was in, like, trauma city all by myself.

Mandy Capehart
00:06:15 – 00:06:32
And then I’m starting to hear on the news about COVID and pandemics, and I became really guarded and angry about it. Like, hey, guys. 2020 is my year to have a mess. Everybody get it together. And in March, when our school shut down and I lost another job, I realized this is not the world I can live in.

Mandy Capehart
00:06:32 – 00:07:17
I cannot live in a world where there are going to be generations of untended grief and a complete lack of understanding and brief literacy. So I started writing my story down. That was where the book came from, over the course of a couple months, I just went through everything that I had experienced that was encouraging and positive to me, both within the of my faith and without it looking for pathways forward that were relatable to others, that could be relatable. Not just like this is what worked for me. So it will work for you, but creating more of an invitation into exploring what might be possible through these different methods of approaching our grief and ourselves differently.

Mandy Capehart
00:07:17 – 00:08:02
And as the book was finished, there was a wildfire in our town that destroyed 25100 homes. So I got firsthand an opportunity to not only share this work of my heart and to connect with people I knew who lost their homes and were now survivors of this wildfire. There were 3 people who died as well, but I also took that into this idea of what if I became a coach around the idea of what it means to grieve and to survive. And so I took my my personal background, my educational background, and poured it all into this, practice that I’ve built. And it just has transformed everything I expected my life to become.

Mandy Capehart
00:08:02 – 00:08:09
I always knew I’d be a writer. Right? We always have those threads. I always knew I’d be a writer.  I’m very, people driven.

Mandy Capehart
00:08:09 – 00:08:29
So I always knew I’d be working with people. I never expected that I’d be working as a grief and trauma educator, showing up for people in their worst moments and sitting with them through the enormity of it. So that’s my quickest way to describe why I decided grief and death were the things I wanted to talk about all day long.

Victoria Volk
00:08:30 – 00:08:38
Kind of similar to my story. Started very young. How old were you when you had your first loss that you can recall?

Mandy Capehart
00:08:42 – 00:08:58
I mean, I was probably that I can recall would be my great grandmother. My grandparents are all I mean, every generation is at 10, 20 years, 19 to 20 years of each other. So I knew all of my great grandparents., Wow. And a couple of my great great grandparents.

Mandy Capehart
00:09:00 – 00:09:16
Wow. I’m sorry. It was my great great grandmother, Selma, who died when I was 3. And I have memories of sitting in her kitchen and being with her and having her read to me. And that I would say that would probably be the earliest loss I can recall.

Mandy Capehart
00:09:16 – 00:09:23
And at that age, what do you know? You’re 3 and great grandma great great grandma’s almost just not around anymore. We don’t have framework for it. But,

Victoria Volk
00:09:25 – 00:09:37
Yeah. Do you know what’s fascinating though? By age 3, we have learned 75% of our of our awarenesses of how to respond to life.

Mandy Capehart
00:09:37 – 00:09:40
Right? It’s wild. Like it’s in there’s

Victoria Volk
00:09:40 – 00:09:53
no conscious, conscious recollection and hindsight about that. But yeah. By that, we’re sponges. So how young were your parents when they had you?

Mandy Capehart
00:09:53 – 00:10:00
I think my mom was 20, 21. My dad was 24. Sounds right.

Victoria Volk
00:10:01 – 00:10:06
And you knew your great, great grandparents? Yeah. Wow. That’s fascinating. Yeah.

Victoria Volk
00:10:06 – 00:10:07
Incredible, really.

Mandy Capehart
00:10:07 – 00:10:24
Yeah, I mean, my grandmother is in her eighties now and consistent. Like we’ve stopped correcting people. That is my mom. We just don’t correct anyone because people assume it is my mom because the age range makes sense.

Mandy Capehart
00:10:24 – 00:10:31
Right? And with my aunts, people assume that we’re sisters and I’m just like, you can have it. Take it. Like, sure. We’re sisters.

Mandy Capehart
00:10:31 – 00:10:41
It doesn’t bother me. It’s who cares? But it’s interesting the way that we perceive age gaps. That’s a whole other conversation, but anyway. Yeah.

Mandy Capehart
00:10:41 – 00:10:42
Young family.

Victoria Volk
00:10:42 – 00:10:58
What did you find yourself saying the most during COVID, to others? What was the story that was playing in your head over and over as you were kind of reflecting on your losses, as you’re writing your book, as you were working with other grievers and talking to other grievers.

Mandy Capehart
00:10:59 – 00:11:55
Yeah. I think a lot of what I experienced personally and also in the stories of others was this pain around being minimized and dismissed. So in my immediate family, I have an immune disorder in our family. And so we were really guarded and absolutely afraid of the unknown and the uncertainty of this pandemic and what would be happening. And we did lose people that we knew and where I would support others and be working with people around the fear of that was invalidating was through validating the stories that they were telling as well and through validating their experiences and helping them to validate and not minimize the enormity of their experiences, their emotions, their sensations in their body, like we as a people, and maybe just this is western culture.

Mandy Capehart
00:11:55 – 00:12:39
I don’t know. Became so quick to justify and minimize our responses for survival so
we could socially still belong or mentally not cave under the pressure of choosing all of these black and white dichotomous opportunities that were handed to us. I feel like there was so much of you’re either with me or you’re against me and, and that in and of itself is a distorted way of thinking, but it’s also such an eliminator of that gray space, that grief exists within. Right? We cannot navigate grief without recognizing it is all gray space.

Mandy Capehart
00:12:39 – 00:13:13
There really is no black and white. And so when I would come up against those black and white thinking patterns in clients and in friends and family members. It was an exercise in, do I wanna do this for a long period of time or is this just the COVID reaction to losing my job and having to pivot and having zero certainty for the foreseeable future. And so it really transformed into this understanding of, oh, no, certainty is the lie. Certainty is the addiction.

Mandy Capehart
00:13:13 – 00:13:32
What does that look like then as a griever and even as a grief professional to help individuals not minimize their fear of certainty or their fear of a lack of certainty, and come to embrace uncertainty and all of its beauty and all of its gray space and all of its opportunity, to find healing.

Victoria Volk
00:13:33 – 00:13:51
What were the lessons that you were taught about grief as you grew up within your family? Like, how did how did that because you had a lot of grief in your life growing up. Yeah. How was that shaped your belief before you knew now what you know. Right?

Victoria Volk
00:13:53 – 00:13:57
Like, what were you taught about grief and how to grieve?

Mandy Capehart
00:13:57 – 00:14:09
You know, not a lot. I think and keeping in mind, like, this is the early nineties. Right? Late eighties, early nineties. We, weren’t necessarily stiff upper lip people.

Mandy Capehart
00:14:10 – 00:14:21
We were very strong back. We can do this, push through it. There’s always a solution. You’ll figure it out. Just keep going kind of people.

Mandy Capehart
00:14:21 – 00:15:05
My dad still to this day says work smart, not hard. And so as a young griever, I can I translated that to It’s hard to grieve, so I will work smart by not grieving and just truly minimize my own experience so that I can do the task in front of me? And I think that that’s a pretty, pretty expected and universal response to grieve as a child, I also think I was watching my parents grieve. And when I was a teenager, I remember having a distinct moment of deciding, oh, my parents are human. So I’m sitting back here angry with them, grieving everything that they’ve gone through, that they’ve put us through trying to survive this ongoing grief experiences that we’re having.

Mandy Capehart
00:15:05 – 00:15:31
And yet I have failed to see them as people as well who are at that time 30. And I think now to when I was 30 and realizing, oh my God, I was no one knew what they were doing. I was a mess at 30. Even for as much as I had figured out, I was a immature trying to just prove that I knew what I was doing and I was valuable in the world. What if my parents were in similar boats?

Mandy Capehart
00:15:31 – 00:16:14
And so I think even grandparents and extended family members had their own opinions about grief. And there were some very strong, religious influences on part of our family, which was, of course, a different layer to how people wanted to navigate grief or not navigated at all., But I feel like it just wasn’t really a conversation to the degree that when my mom died, that following she died right after Christmas, not following Christmas. I went back home for the holidays and remember thinking this is gonna be either a mess or the most restorative experience we could ever have together. Like this is a definitive Christmas gathering.

Mandy Capehart
00:16:14 – 00:16:28
What do I wanna do about it? What do I wanna bring to this family? So the first night I brought bourbon and I got everyone really sick and hungover the next day. And we all pretended we weren’t hungover, which was in retrospect, my favorite thing. We were just like, wow, I don’t feel good.

Mandy Capehart
00:16:28 – 00:16:40
What did we eat yesterday? And I was like, guys, we drank too much bourbon. I don’t know why that’s unclear. Why aren’t we admitting? But that was such a perfect example of like, oh, we’re all grieving as well, and we’re not admitting it.

Mandy Capehart
00:16:40 – 00:16:54
Okay, It opened it up so that I was able to say, hey, this whole denial thing is not serving us. We’ve tried for a year to survive on our own. It does not work. And so now I’m going to start asking you guys some really vulnerable questions.

Mandy Capehart
00:16:55 – 00:17:10
And even if it’s just for me, if you need to believe that you’re answering those questions so that I can heal. That’s fine. But don’t shut down. Don’t pull back. And so it’s really become this family that I mean, still still grieving.

Mandy Capehart
00:17:10 – 00:17:31
Like I said off air, I have an aunt who’s in the hospital right now for cancer and her daughter is in the hospital as well for some medical crisis, that she’s been navigating. And these are not simple, small things. These are not I had a wart removed operations. Right? It’s still a family unit where we can say, this is horrible.

Mandy Capehart
00:17:31 – 00:18:13
How do we survive this? How do we hold each other In the midst of the uncertainty of if we’ll survive it or not, if our family members will be okay. So I think that, lack of grief literacy kind of articulated in my childhood is a big part of why now, despite the discomfort, despite the, pushback I get when I bring it up in certain situations when people just wanna have a good time. I don’t care. I’ve seen the benefit of pushing into those uncomfortable places and teaching both myself and my nervous system, how to remain aligned and resting even amid what feels like a threat to my health and my mental stability.

Mandy Capehart
00:18:13 – 00:18:21
Grief can disrupt all of that. And yet it can also be the doorway into like binding restoration in that area as well.

Victoria Volk
00:18:21 – 00:19:02
The thing I heard you say in I’ll say it how I heard it is that there’s this deep desire to have deeper conversations instead of all that surface level stuff. And, I’ve even found myself, I’ll be out and about mingling in the bar or whatever with friends and I’ll say something and they’ll look at me like, okay. Yeah. That’s, that’s too depressing. They’re kind of like, to be not to be the Debbie downer, but it’s like, let’s, I have friends too where it’s like, I don’t I don’t even know what their dreams are.

Victoria Volk
00:19:02 – 00:19:08
Yeah. But I know if I ask them, it’s like, why are you asking me that? Like, they don’t want to talk about it. Like,

Mandy Capehart
00:19:08 – 00:19:33
Sure. You know, I think often whether they wanna talk about it or they don’t have an answer or they haven’t gotten through the the layer of, but what if it doesn’t workout. But what if I can’t the uncertainty. Right? They their relationship to uncertainty is directly impacted by their desire to control the outcome and control their experiences.

Mandy Capehart
00:19:33 – 00:19:57
And I think those uncomfortable conversations, those deeper conversations are sacred ground. We’re asking someone to step forward and be seen and be known and to not have the answers. And certainly, it’s a collective approach. Right? It’s collective healing that I’m inviting people into when I say, share your deepest, darkest moments with me.

Mandy Capehart
00:19:57 – 00:20:14
Tell me what you’re afraid of, because guess what? You’re not only totally valid and being afraid of that. I’m afraid of that too. But now what do we perceive each other to be less than or weak or an trustworthy? Like, I don’t know.

Mandy Capehart
00:20:14 – 00:20:50
I see that depth and that willingness to be seen as such a a flag of safety. My aunt the other day, a different aunt was telling me how this family member in the hospital is the strongest person that she knows and gave all this evidence. And I responded, it takes one to know one. And I say that because you lost my mom, your sister, you’ve experienced heartache after heartache. And here you are In person, caring for our family members that are in the hospital all by yourself.

Mandy Capehart
00:20:50 – 00:21:13
And while I would, if I could drop everything and come to you, our lives are very different and she has that ability. What does that what does it look like to be supported by me right now? Like, you don’t have to be so strong all the time too. And I think when we can finally tell people that you don’t have to be strong, like you don’t have to keep being strong. I personally hate it when someone’s like, oh my gosh, you’re so strong.

Mandy Capehart
00:21:13 – 00:21:32
And I was like, no. What you see, because you’re not safe for me to not be strong, is the strength. You see the backbone. The soft tender side of me is available to people who aren’t going to disrespect or diminish me. And to be honest, I show that side to a lot of people now, but when I was younger, not so much.

Mandy Capehart
00:21:32 – 00:21:59
And I think being able to just call that tenderness out in people toward themselves, right? Show yourself your tender side. Be honest with how much you’re carrying and let’s see if we can’t offload some of that weight simply by Identifying and addressing it and letting it move through our life and our story and our experiences. So it’s not Debbie Downer to me to bring up like deepest, darkest fears in the bar. That is the moment of vulnerability that I can say, hey.

Mandy Capehart
00:21:59 – 00:22:14
Your walls are down and you’re with safe people, If I’m not a safe person, probably don’t invite me to drinks again, because alcohol is gonna make you say and do things you don’t want me to remind you of the next day. Otherwise, I must be a safe person because I’m here. So let’s just be real. K?

Mandy Capehart
00:22:14 – 00:22:28
Because we’ve got limited time. We don’t know what’s gonna happen tomorrow. Tell me what should tell me what hurts. Let’s talk through it and just bear witness to each other in a way that we’ve been discouraged from doing.

Victoria Volk
00:22:29 – 00:22:38
Yeah. I made sugar cookies recently and I was just thinking, yep. Just like sugarcoating. Just it’s it’s that. I mean, it’s a terrible Yeah.

Victoria Volk
00:22:38 – 00:22:46
Literal sugar coating. That’s what we do. Right. And yeah, like you said, just to get real. Let’s get real.

Victoria Volk
00:22:47 – 00:23:03
I don’t want to gloss over something you said because, I feel like it’s an important lost to talk about because there’s not just you, it’s also your partner involved. But you had, shared that you had lost had a miscarriage.

Mandy Capehart
00:23:04 – 00:23:19
Oh, yeah. I actually don’t know how many miscarriages I’ve had. We got married pretty I was early twenties and our daughter was born when I was 30. And so we had years of infertility. We weren’t trying right away.

Mandy Capehart
00:23:19 – 00:23:51
But when we did start, just years of infertility and the undeniable pain that goes with that is when they come on and say like, oh, we’re not sure why everything about you is normal. I’m like, cool. Except that my body can’t do the one thing that like It was created to do okay. Like all of the uncertainty, every question and, anybody who’s ever experienced infertility knows immediately the question is like, what did I do wrong? What am I doing wrong?

Mandy Capehart
00:23:51 – 00:24:14
Is it because I did x y z. If there’s religious trauma on top of it, there’s all of that blame that comes along from a spiritual side as well. There was so much, built in. And then we so our daughter was born in, 2014 as a miracle. Like she was a surprise and I was terrified the entire pregnancy.

Mandy Capehart
00:24:15 – 00:24:25
And then a few years later, of course, in 2020, on New Year’s Eve, I knew I was pregnant. I looked at my husband. I’m like, I’m pregnant. And he’s like, really? Did you take a test?

Mandy Capehart
00:24:25 – 00:24:41
Are you kidding? That doesn’t make sense. How how do you know? And I was like, no, I just, I have a feeling. And I tested positive a couple of days later and started bleeding a couple of days after that and just sat with it because it was the one I knew about.

Mandy Capehart
00:24:41 – 00:25:23
It was the one I had a test, a positive, Oh my God. Is this really happening? Experience, especially 4 years after losing mom and realizing, like, the hope I had placed in that little pregnancy, it was interesting because I remember feeling very much, and this is similar to how I felt in the week after my mom died, feeling very much that, okay, I can safeguard and bear in mind. This is before I wrote my book or any of the like, started doing any of this work really professionally. I’ve been speaking publicly and leading a small, church in a bar for years up until then.

Mandy Capehart
00:25:23 – 00:26:28
But, and so I talked about loss and grief plenty of times, but this was really a moment where I again decided, okay, I can choose to numb myself and step away from the hope of ever having another baby from the fullness of what this means and what it doesn’t mean, or I can choose to really lean in to both the grief I’m going to experience from this and the stillness I need to heal because it is not a the misunderstanding of what a miscarriage does to a human body is so offensive is the best way I can put it. Like the lack of understanding people have about what actually happens and what you’re experiencing. I had to give myself a lot of permission to be tender and still, and unproductive. I’m extremely busy and productive when you were listing all the things in my bio was like, jeez, I have done so many things. Maybe it’s time to calm down a bit.

Mandy Capehart
00:26:28 – 00:26:44
But, anyway, the sensation even of having the pregnancy and knowing, oh, I’ve got untold number of miscarriages in my past. What do I do? Do I Dream. Do I hope? Do I pretend I’m not pregnant?

Mandy Capehart
00:26:45 – 00:27:02
Do I wait? Do I tell anyone? Do I panic? I chose hope I chose to lean in fully and say, I’m going to imagine our life with another baby. I’m going to lean fully in and completely invest.

Mandy Capehart
00:27:02 – 00:27:26
And so when, the miscarriage began, I had to tell my husband. Yep.  I’m going to lean fully into the loss here too. And not just for me, although I will say his ability to support me has often been at the expense of him supporting himself. And that’s a, that’s a whole nother topic of how to help your grieving partner.

Mandy Capehart
00:27:26 – 00:27:43
Right. But it’s been a very healing journey for us to come back together and really talk About what that meant and what it means ongoing.  And yeah, miscarriage is a very, very nuanced experience of loss.

Victoria Volk
00:27:43 – 00:27:54
What would you like to say and clarify for people about what you said, how the misconception about miscarriage and what it does to them.

Mandy Capehart
00:27:55 – 00:28:07
Yeah, it’s a good question. I think It comes back to that recognition that we are holistic beings. We are heart, mind, body, spirit.  We are not just a body. We are not just a mind.

Mandy Capehart
00:28:07 – 00:28:54
We are not just the emotions that we feel. And when we approach ourselves from a disjointed perspective trying to heal, trying to experience grief. We dismiss the wisdom that we have carried from all of our other experiences into this moment where we could integrate them together and actually experience healing. And so I say that in regards to miscarriage because the emotional impact, the true emotions, the things I’m feeling in my heart, the thoughts I’m thinking about the miscarriage itself, about the loss of my future, about the rationale behind what happened and why about the debate internally. Is it a baby?

Mandy Capehart
00:28:54 – 00:29:03
Is it a fetus? Is it viable? Is it not? What will people say? What will people think like the mental fireworks that are just exploding left and right?

Mandy Capehart
00:29:03 – 00:29:25
And then that piritual side. And, in my framework, there’s sort of grief framework. Spirit refers to that connection to self, to others, relationally to the world, at large. And then if there is a spiritual practice to our sense of higher power. But all of those pieces have to be included, honored, and addressed when we’re healing.

Mandy Capehart
00:29:25 – 00:29:38
And I think with miscarriages, because there have been such again, black and white perspectives discerning. Okay. It’s just a scientific process. I don’t know if you’ve read Becoming Michelle Obama’s first book. It’s beautiful.

Mandy Capehart
00:29:39 – 00:29:50
She tells the story of her miscarriage and she’s very practical. She’s like, it it was just a clump of cells to me. And so and that’s how she moves through it in the book. And I sat with it for a long time because to some degree. Yeah.

Mandy Capehart
00:29:50 – 00:30:19
Totally. Just like not viable outside of me, scientific process. And like I said, I don’t know how many I’ve had.  I had such irregular cycles that I’ve probably had multiple. And yet here I am choosing hope on the front of that and saying, if I don’t lean fully in with my emotions, with my mind and with my sense of connection to this little clump of cells, then I may miss out on the fullness of what this experience can be.

Mandy Capehart
00:30:19 – 00:30:57
I think when we discredit people who have babies and who can carry life and put them into this well, and you see this in legislation right now, everywhere. We’ve minimized their personhood as autonomous individuals. We’ve minimized their ability to advocate for themselves, which is because we don’t think it’s important. We don’t see the enormity of what life and giving life and going through all of the steps of that can be. So I think that the misconception of like, oh my gosh, you’ve had a miscarriage.

Mandy Capehart
00:30:57 – 00:31:13
I’ve had some too. That immediate centering of yourself in someone else’s experience when they share with you. Right. When they are real and vulnerable and honest is a reflection of that other person’s discomfort. Like, I’m not comfortable with you telling me that you’re hurting.

Mandy Capehart
00:31:13 – 00:31:25
So I’ll just say I’ve been there. We don’t have to talk about it. I’ve been there too. And that goes to all grief experiences. People center themselves and minimize pain easily.

Mandy Capehart
00:31:25 – 00:32:12
But I think, at the crux of it would be recognizing the individual experience of a miscarriage or infertility or pregnancy loss or child loss. They’re so complicated and nuanced because there’s every day a reminder that you’ve experienced this loss where I can say, oh, man, my memories of my mom come back probably every day in some way or another, or my grandfather or any of these people that I’ve lost. Those come up so differently than the miscarriages do because I have a little girl who’s constantly, she’s backed off now, but begged for a sibling for years every day. And how do you explain to a little girl? Well, mommy can’t.

Mandy Capehart
00:32:12 – 00:32:17
Mommy’s tried. You had one. Kind of. Maybe. I don’t know.

Mandy Capehart
00:32:17 – 00:32:35
And then you spiral again right down that same mental explosion of, I don’t even know how to think about this without hearing the input from judgmental voices and critical voices Oliver. It’s a long way to answer that question, but there’s a lot about it on my mind.

Victoria Volk
00:32:36 – 00:32:45
And you bring up a very good point in that for your daughter. That’s a grieving experience too of not having a sibling. Right? Yep. Maybe that’s a book you could write.

Mandy Capehart
00:32:45 – 00:32:58
Oh, man. The other day she, well, I guess it was a couple of years ago. I found a piece of paper she’d written on that said reminder, biggest reminder of your life. She was probably 6 or 7. Mom is willing to adopt a baby sister.

Mandy Capehart
00:32:58 – 00:33:13
And I was like, oh, child. Again, like, immune disorder, constant treatment happening in our house. So our lives are not simple. Adoption would not not that that’s simple, but no easy path forward on it. It was pretty hard to read that.

Mandy Capehart
00:33:13 – 00:33:37
And then fast forward a couple of years the other day, she was saying to a friend, hey, guess what? I’m an only child, so you should come to my house because we can do anything and there’s no one taking our toys. We don’t have to include any siblings. And I just thought, thank God she’s embracing the positive because I was not an only child and yet we were years apart. And so it felt a lot like I had both the best of both worlds, I think.

Mandy Capehart
00:33:37 – 00:33:41
So it’s interesting. Yeah, that would be, that would be quite a book.

Victoria Volk
00:33:43 – 00:34:00
And I think, in grief recovery, we talk about replacing the loss. Right. And so as children, one of our first losses is usually an animal or a pet, or let’s say a dog, and then the parents say, well, that’s okay, Sally. We can just go to the pet store and get a new dog tomorrow. You know, like, right?

Victoria Volk
00:34:00 – 00:34:24
And so I was just thinking about that, like, when she asked for a sibling, it’s like, well, maybe we can start with a puppy, but then at the same time, it’s, it’s minimizing, right? The loss of hope, dreams and expectations that she had for her life, sharing it with the sibling. Right? And that’s gonna be a grief story she’ll grow into tube. And like you said, it’s I think that would be a very important book.

Mandy Capehart
00:34:25 – 00:34:38
We have to move into that space of both and. Right? We can both grieve the loss of a sibling and celebrate the life we have. They don’t cancel each other out. They don’t negate.

Mandy Capehart
00:34:38 – 00:35:04
When we were, let’s see. I was probably 14 when my stepmom’s dog died, and we loved Riley. She was the sweetest black lab, and she was full of energy, and she ran in front of a vehicle and didn’t survive. And it was probably 6 months later and that my we were grieving and my stepmom was really like, I miss Riley so much. I want another pet, but I don’t know if I’m ready.

Mandy Capehart
00:35:04 – 00:35:30
I had found golden retriever puppies for sale in the newspaper like that weekend. And we were on the way to go. Like our weekend plans were, do we go get this puppy or do we go see this musician at the park? This musician that I loved and I was convinced if I just met him at 14, he would want to marry me and we would just have to have a long courtship because I was a child. I did not marry that musician, but I did marry a musician.

Mandy Capehart
00:35:30 – 00:36:00
But anyway, I, like, remember my stepmom saying, I’m not sure if I’m ready, but I guess we can go meet these dogs. And when we got there, they were in squalor. Like my dad got in this guy’s face and said, if you don’t just hand me this puppy at this price point That I’m saying, because the guy wanted 1,000 of dollars for these dogs that were being abused. He said, I’m gonna report you to the city for illegally, breeding these dogs and keeping them, abusing them. And of course we reported them anyway, but we took home this, the runt of the litter that was covered in its own filth.

Mandy Capehart
00:36:00 – 00:36:30
And, and my stepmom realized I was ready not to replace Riley, but to invite an opportunity to love another little Cue another little creature and an experience that reciprocated affection. Right. And so tucker moved in with us and was amazing until he died as well. But, it’s, it’s remarkable. We, I know that story is so different.

Mandy Capehart
00:36:30 – 00:36:49
I know most people who would have partners can tell you stories of their partners who’ve just brought home another pet or something like that and said, don’t worry. Now you don’t have to be sad anymore. And again, it’s that minimizing of our experiences. Instead of recognizing we can integrate the experiences together for a more holistic and restorative and healing experience.

Victoria Volk
00:36:50 – 00:36:52
I look forward to that book you write.

Mandy Capehart
00:36:54 – 00:36:55
Both hands. Got it. Okay.

Victoria Volk
00:36:56 – 00:37:07
Well, and I think I think your daughter would be a beautiful you know, she could almost see herself as the character in that book. Right. And probably help you write it. Yeah., She’s a brilliant little writer.

Victoria Volk
00:37:07 – 00:37:07
She,

Mandy Capehart
00:37:09 – 00:37:24
She could write it herself. I think that that’s part of it is recognizing too, like, that is also her story, and that is something that she deserves to be the one the authority of. And as parents, it’s easy for us to say like, hey, we’ve got the perspective. We’ve got the age. We’ve got the experience.

Mandy Capehart
00:37:24 – 00:37:55
We know better. And that’s one thing with our kiddo that we’re trying to raise her with is a sense of autonomy where she can push back on us. She can ask questions that are really hard when they come to mind and that she can walk away from conversations with unsatisfying answers and not not to the degree where mom and dad said so, and that’s why. But this, like, that didn’t clarify or that didn’t answer anything because mom and dad don’t have the answer. They don’t act they’re not actually infallible.

Mandy Capehart
00:37:55 – 00:38:23
Okay. What does that mean for me? And at the same time, she’s like, she’s 9. We’re trying very hard to protect her from the enormity of all the things and keep her young and keep her innocent as much as possible as in this stage, but, but giving her a chance to just have a childhood. Like, she experienced losing her nana, when she was 1a half, and my mom had moved across the state to help care for her when I needed to go back to work.

Mandy Capehart
00:38:23 – 00:39:18
And so we had a very special relationship that my daughter doesn’t remember. And I think she deserves to experience what that mean what she has carried with her from that loss in her body and how it shows up for her. I mean, anxious kids are a dime a dozen these days with how life happens around us, but it’s a very special opportunity for us to teach them differently than we were taught and to help them understand how to move through anxiety and stress and fear of loss In ways that we really needed when we were young. And that means getting really uncomfortable and not being able to just fix it or answer it away or explain it away. There’s a lot of when you’re older, I’ll go more in-depth, but for now, please take this information and hold onto it as fact and trust me that, I’ll share more later, but

Victoria Volk
00:39:19 – 00:39:50
So far, Mandy has shared some beautiful bits of wisdom with us all, and she’s going to continue in a few moments with some practical tips. But first, I just wanted to share a word from my sponsor, MagicMind. Consistently creating new content isn’t easy, and it does require a lot of focus and energy. And it can be hard to balance them. Either you have too much energy and you feel amped up and, like, you’re ready to bounce off the walls instead of feeling dialed in.

Victoria Volk
00:39:50 – 00:40:28
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Victoria Volk
00:40:28 – 00:40:58
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Victoria Volk
00:40:58 – 00:41:19
Let’s get back to the episode so Mandy can share some more of her wonderful wisdom with us. That’s a great lead to, into my next question in people listening, who are just really walking through a really difficult time. What, what is, what are some practical things that you can suggest to those people.

Mandy Capehart
00:41:19 – 00:41:43
Yeah. Well, absolutely. As a somatic practitioner, I am very, very hopeful when people are willing to pay attention to the sensations that are happening in their body. Like, we’re really quick to disconnect, like I said, our heart and our mind and our body and our spirit because we think we can think our way through a problem. If that were the case, we would have no more problems.

Mandy Capehart
00:41:43 – 00:41:52
So, like, that’s an easy dismissal. No, girl. You can’t think through that problem. No arguments against, like, the mental exercises., I get it.

Mandy Capehart
00:41:52 – 00:42:31
There’s value in them sometimes, but, ruminating takes it too far. So I think that keeping ourselves humble enough to say, maybe there’s something in my body that I can sense that will bring me some wisdom. There are a lot of somatic practices that I share, on my Instagram page and through my podcast and the work that I do, because I want these practical Habits to become the things that we go to first. Right? So in our neuroplasticity world, we know our brain can be we know that even just imagining a thing can cause our nervous system to react.

Mandy Capehart
00:42:32 – 00:43:16
And so if that is true, then the inverse is true of the way that we heal and the way that we can experience positive things as well. So if I imagine a bear is standing in front of me threatening my family, my nervous system is going to say, hey, holy crap. You should probably strategize and run away. And so the same is true of peaceful experiences and moving through loss and even restoring relationship with people that we’ve lost. And so engaging the somatic, the body, the nervous system in ways that, might feel a little a little, uncomfortable or maybe a little have some skepticism attached to it is one of my favorite ways to bring people in because the the Feel Your Feelings crowd, which we’ve all done that.

Mandy Capehart
00:43:17 – 00:43:42
And it was very popular for a while. It, for me, I witnessed it transform into good vibes only, which is probably like the one phrase that I would eradicate from the common collective, if I could. I hear good vibes only. And I see I what I actually hear is my neutral vibes aren’t welcome. My human existence isn’t welcome here.

Mandy Capehart
00:43:44 – 00:44:11
So, yeah, I would say start with recognizing going beyond just trying to think your way through a problem or let me just feel this and then I’ll feel better. That’s not true, but Your body is in internalizing and holding all of the things that you’ve experienced and to invite those things gently and very carefully with guidance to the surface and to get some wisdom and just some compassion for the things you’ve carried is really important.

Victoria Volk
00:44:12 – 00:44:21
I wanna ask something. You just mentioned it. You said restoring of the relationship with someone you’ve lost. Can you elaborate on that?

Mandy Capehart
00:44:21 – 00:44:42
Yes I can., Okay. So this is going to, might be slightly activating for people who have been In situations and I’ll say this just spiritually or even like religious situations where we talk about prayer or we talk about, afterlife. So bear with me. That framework is where I come from.

Mandy Capehart
00:44:42 – 00:45:20
Right? I have a strong background in different Flavors of Western Christianity. But where I’m going with that is this idea that If a person is removed from us often, whether through divorce breakup, literally moving away, or death, we often think, okay, I have to find closure and it’s going to look like whatever Hollywood tells me it looks like. So we get this idea in our head about what closure is, and we pursue that. And when it doesn’t work, because it typically does not work, we give up.

Mandy Capehart
00:45:20 – 00:45:55
We just think, okay, I guess that’s it. The truth is, if I can imagine a scenario where my nervous system will literally calm back down from a bear in front of me, then does it not stand a reason that I can imagine a connection to the person I’ve lost, a conversation with the person I’ve lost, not to deify them, not to put them on a pedestal and say they were perfect and did no wrong, and I’m the problem. And now I’m having better thoughts about myself. That’s not it. But to the degree where we can say, I’m gonna confront.

Mandy Capehart
00:45:55 – 00:46:16
Here’s an example. My mom with all of her heart led a very private life. There were things after she died that I learned about. There were things as she, as a teenager that I learned about that I could never about or ask about. At one point I was wrestling with something and realized, oh, this is connected to that story.

Mandy Capehart
00:46:16 – 00:46:41
I know about my mom’s life, But I’m not in a place where I can call my grandmother or my aunt or my dad. I don’t have capacity to have a conversation and have them worry about protecting her reputation or her experience. Right. She told me what she told me because she needed that was what I was welcome to be prepared YouTube. But what I knew had affected me and I was carrying it and I needed to process.

Mandy Capehart
00:46:41 – 00:47:19
And so I sat down and started to write a letter about I’m pissed off at you for not sharing and being honest, or I’m hurt that you didn’t share this, or I see that you’re human, but, like, why couldn’t you trust me? Whatever whatever the feelings were. What I ended with was this experience that ended up being verbal. I didn’t write it all down, but I was crying and feeling seen and held by my mom unable to respond. I wasn’t imagining what I ended with wasn’t this experience of, like high spirituality where I would say, oh my gosh.

Mandy Capehart
00:47:19 – 00:47:51
I’m healed from that wound with my mom just not disclosing something. I ended this cathartic expression of just not being able to be honest about what I’ve been carrying. All of the emotion of feeling untrusted and feeling unseen or feeling unworthy of hearing this hard thing in my mom’s life. Even the losses connected to it because, you know, I learn a piece of information and my brain goes to, well, what did that mean for me if that had happened? If it hadn’t happened now in the in between, what does it mean for me?

Mandy Capehart
00:47:51 – 00:48:10
All of those pieces that felt so open ended didn’t necessarily feel like closure. They felt like integrated. It felt like I could ask those questions and not fall to pieces. It felt like I could approach it with a sense of clarity but, yeah, there are still uncertainties attached. I’m not gonna have an answer that’s satisfying.

Mandy Capehart
00:48:11 – 00:48:33
I’m not going to resolve it. I, however, notice this piece of my mom’s relationship with me has lightened. When I think of that moment. When I think of that memory with my mom, that information withheld, I’m not having this sharp pressure. So part of somatic work is about learning to notice the sensations in your body.

Mandy Capehart
00:48:33 – 00:49:16
And sometimes it’s really hard to describe them, which honestly means that people are usually onto something there. And even now as I’m like talking about this, I can feel this like finger pressure, amount of pressure, like right behind my sternum, right around my heart. And it’s still less now than it was when I think about how I felt, what, 16 learning this piece of information and feeling trapped and not feeling Able to even talk about like, even as I’m thinking 16, my throat is starting to like get tight and want to close-up because I couldn’t talk about it. And I didn’t have that freedom to come into a place where it was a safe thing to converse about. So, yes, I have lost my mom and no, we never talked about it.

Mandy Capehart
00:49:16 – 00:49:59
And yet here I am talking about it in a way that I don’t actually need to imagine that she’s sitting there with me. You know, there’s this, practice called the empty chair in therapeutic Modalities where we invite the person to that chair, or we talk to the chair as if the person is with us. It doesn’t have to even be that activating because that is a hard Practice., It can be as simple as just letting myself be really honest and vulnerable with how what I’ve experienced is true and there were ugly parts of it. And I’m going to for me, vulnerability is accepting but those ugly painful parts are true and present and not trying to minimize or push them away.

Mandy Capehart
00:50:01 – 00:50:18
And I think You know, it’s a really difficult place to get to, but we don’t have to start with doing it in our own internal work. Right. We can start with an external relationship where we’re looking for a little bit of understanding or integration
when we know we’re not going to get answers at the end of it.

Victoria Volk
00:50:20 – 00:50:52
In grief recovery, we talk about and that really just reminds me there’s an exercise that we do where you do just that really. It, and, and it’s because you can have all these feelings and not get the closure. Right. And you’re stuck in emotional jail. But if you can get to that place through the way, the way you described, the somatic work that you do with people or through the grief recovery work with me, that’s that it’s possible, Right?

Victoria Volk
00:50:52 – 00:51:12
That is possible that that emotional energy, because emotions have energy, right? Can be lessened, enlightened, and worked through and filled with a fresh, newer perspective and maybe a whole lot of compassion yourself and the other person.

Mandy Capehart
00:51:12 – 00:51:35
Absolutely., I mean, emotions are energy in motion. They are literally little tiny vibrations that we’re sensing in our body that our brain is making a thought about, is making sense of, and then we spit it out and we call it a feeling, but it’s not. It’s you know, the feeling is the physical part. And the more we can allow ourselves to like, oh, maybe I misunderstand human emotion.

Mandy Capehart
00:51:35 – 00:51:53
Maybe I don’t know myself as well as I think. Maybe I’ve really protected myself from having to get into those vulnerable, uncomfortable feelings. Even this morning, I was talking with my husband, in response to 2 conversations yesterday about people who say, well, I’m not angry. I’m not angry. I don’t have a right to be angry.

Mandy Capehart
00:51:53 – 00:52:13
I have nothing to be angry about. I’m like, oh, but you do. You do have a right to be angry. You deserve to be angry, but also your relationship to anger might need to shift because if you’ve minimized it and disqualified yourself, you’re missing the fact that anger is a secondary emotion. And it’s really protecting you from those more risky emotions.

Mandy Capehart
00:52:13 – 00:52:41
There’s more vulnerable emotions behind it that maybe pointing to the fact that you’ve been invalidated or treated unjustly., Right? Our relationship to our emotions, but specifically, the uncomfortable emotions, is often so muted when we grieve that we don’t even notice we’re muting our access to the comfortable positive emotions at the same time. Right? We just we feel numb, and then we say, well, I don’t have emotions when No numb is an emotion too.

Mandy Capehart
00:52:41 – 00:52:57
Numbness is a feeling that has information for us. And we just get to a point where we’re willing to say, okay, well, what are you trying to teach me?, That then The floodgates open and it feels cathartic instead of just a fear driven. I’m never going to stop crying if I start. So I just won’t start.

Victoria Volk
00:52:58 – 00:53:25
I’m in a Voxer group with some, some friends, from all over the world. And I happen to have listened to one of my friends. She called it a rant and she was very she was angry about something and I heard it. And after I heard it, she had recalled it and I called her out on it and she’s like, I, you know, I just recalled it because you know, it, it doesn’t serve anybody. It doesn’t, it’s not helpful.

Victoria Volk
00:53:25 – 00:53:43
And I said, oh, wait a minute, I said, you have every right to be angry. Anger is a valid emotion. And it needs to come up and out. And unless you’re ruminating on it, and you’re telling every Tom, Dick and Harry the same story and you ruminating on it. Right?

Victoria Volk
00:53:43 – 00:53:54
Like, that’s not helpful. Like that doesn’t serve you. But to get it up and out and like, like, let that emotional charge go. Yeah. That’s helpful.

Victoria Volk
00:53:54 – 00:53:57
That’s serving you. Don’t minimize that. Right?

Mandy Capehart
00:53:57 – 00:53:58
Yeah. It’s like,

Victoria Volk
00:53:58 – 00:54:02
She didn’t mean she didn’t mean my permission. Obviously. Right. Right.

Mandy Capehart
00:54:03 – 00:54:29
Giving you having your permission to be a witness is a big deal, and I think we, you know, every time I hear someone say, oh, well, that’s not a helpful thing. Actually, it is. It’s helpful because it allows you to be honest. It allows you to be seen and known. And if you are translating that it is not helpful for you to be seen and known, then there’s a lot more work for you to do, not with any judgment attached, but just, hey, that sounds like a pretty painful belief that you’ve carried.

Mandy Capehart
00:54:30 – 00:55:11
What’s possible if it’s not true? What’s possible if the inverse is true that you are worth known being known and being seen, and your anger is worth expressing what’s possible for you. I can’t tell you how many grief clients I have that conversation becomes the focus for months because there’s so much to unwind around how we have minimized and invalidated our personhood and our humanity just to belong and survive in places where we’re not going to belong. This goes back to my community loss. I was telling you about like realizing that I only belonged in this large community because I made myself fit.

Mandy Capehart
00:55:11 – 00:55:25
I made myself take on the shape that was acceptable is why when I said I’m no longer going to look sound and act like you guys, do I still belong? They said, absolutely not. No. You don’t. Okay.

Mandy Capehart
00:55:25 – 00:55:39
Does that mean all that we shared was meaningless? No. But it does help me recognize pieces of myself that I sacrificed and decide, was it worth it? Ultimately, no. No.

Victoria Volk
00:55:41 – 00:55:44
But there is no failure in learning either.

Mandy Capehart
00:55:45 – 00:55:45
No. There’s like a failing.

Victoria Volk
00:55:48 – 00:56:08
Our best lessons come in failure, right? That’s why it’s not failure. I was at a wrestling term that my when my son wrestled me was just a young squirt. And on the back of the t-shirts for the wrestling team, this other team, they had, I can’t remember exactly how it was written, but something to the effect of failure is only learning. Yeah, absolutely.

Victoria Volk
00:56:08 – 00:56:11
That’s Yeah. I’ve never forgotten it.

Mandy Capehart
00:56:11 – 00:56:14
Just education. Just information., Yep. This information.

Victoria Volk
00:56:15 – 00:56:22
Is there anything else that you would like to share today. I feel like we could talk even longer, but I want to be respectful of your time.

Mandy Capehart
00:56:24 – 00:56:44
Let’s see. I think the last thing I would invite people into is just giving themselves permission to take up space, might look different than you think. It’s not saying, oh, I need a weekend away. I need to go to the spa. Giving ourselves permission to take up space means learning that self-care is simple.

Mandy Capehart
00:56:44 – 00:56:58
It’s accessible to everyone. Often I say the first step of self-care is a glass of water, right? You take for granted the fact that you can access clean water. So for the moment, you’re probably dehydrated. If you’ve cried today, you’re probably dehydrated.

Mandy Capehart
00:56:58 – 00:57:53
If you’ve pretended you haven’t cried today, or you’re not sad, you’re probably dehydrated. Just go give your skin some love, take a drink of water, a big glass, and start with this baseline understanding that the simple approach to who you are as a human, as my husband so eloquently puts it as a meat bag, as a body, go restore a little piece of that and see if it doesn’t change how you’re feeling because we, were, I think we complicate self-care and, and honoring the simplicity of our personhood because we’re mental creatures. We overthink things. We create robots and incredibly complex Mathematical systems to try and solve all the world’s problems when really, maybe we just need some clean water and a nap. I’m a I’m a big fan of that.

Mandy Capehart
00:57:53 – 00:58:03
So if you’re feeling a little like too muchness, clean water, a glass of water, and a nap is really, for me, a smart place to start.

Victoria Volk
00:58:05 – 00:58:14
I am gonna circle this conversation back to houseplants. Okay. Because this is the best., I don’t know. What what’s the word?

Victoria Volk
00:58:15 – 00:58:21
Segue. Segway. Thank you. And to bringing the conversation back to houseplants, because what do houseplants need?

Mandy Capehart
00:58:21 – 00:58:29
Water, sunlight, and something’s good. Absolutely. Yes. I love that saying that you’re basically a houseplant with emotions. Yes.

Mandy Capehart
00:58:29 – 00:58:45
Get some sunlight, get some water, get a little food occasionally, clear the cobwebs. Do you have fungus gnats? Alright. There’s a there’s a medicine for that. There’s a combination of care and, and lendliness and things you can do, and you’re going to lose some leaves.

Mandy Capehart
00:58:45 – 00:58:50
Yep. That’s a good metaphor. And it’s okay.

Victoria Volk
00:58:50 – 00:58:56
And if they start to turn and if they start to turn yellow, yeah. Check the soil, right? Yeah. I’m looking

Mandy Capehart
00:58:56 – 00:59:11
at the plants in this office right now. There’s probably let’s see. 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14. There are 14 houseplants in my office right now. Half of them are happy and thriving.

Mandy Capehart
00:59:11 – 00:59:26
One of them is my oldest houseplant ever. It’s like 20 years old, and it has brown spots and it loses leaves all the time. And this year after like 20 years of owning it. It started a second sprout for the first time ever. I started asking myself, what am I doing differently?

Mandy Capehart
00:59:27 – 00:59:39
Because this is this is wild. It’s never done that. It’s just gone straight up and lost some leaves and had some leaves at the top. It looks like a weird palm tree. I can’t even remember what Parietal it is.

Mandy Capehart
00:59:39 – 00:59:58
And I realized, oh, I just started giving it more attention on a consistent basis. Not just the oh, God. I forgot to water. Because for all intents and purposes, as much as I wish I was, I’m a very My ADHD comes in strong. It’s probably why I had so many houseplants at the one point.

Mandy Capehart
00:59:59 – 01:00:20
I just don’t I’m not consistent with them. But when I realized I’ve just been consistent with this one recently and it’s beginning to thrive and new things are growing in it. I thought that, yes. That’ll preach. That is a metaphor right there that if we can attend to ourselves in a consistent and loving and simple manner, something new just might take root.

Victoria Volk
01:00:22 – 01:00:28
That’s a beautiful way to end this podcast. I knew this podcast could be about houseplants.

Mandy Capehart
01:00:29 – 01:00:31
You were right. You were a 100% right.

Victoria Volk
01:00:33 – 01:00:53
Oh, I trust that everything that came out to be shared was shared and I would love to have you back. I think we discussed this before we started to record about having you back on to talk about Enneagram and how that relates to grief and the different Enneagram types. And so I would love to explore that with you in a future episode.

Mandy Capehart
01:00:53 – 01:01:03
Absolutely. I love that topic. I think Enneagram work is so easily aligned with grief work and recovery and integration. So absolutely.

Victoria Volk
01:01:04 – 01:01:36
And I’m like I shared with you too, I’m deep diving into human design. And that’s, you know, comes down to your birth time and place and where, where the, where the stars were and all of that at the, at the time of your birth. And, it’s been a huge, I had a lot of shifts in my perspective towards relationships, just in exploring my own design. And, so it’s information. It’s another tool in discovering who we are and learning about ourselves, and how we show up in our grief.

Victoria Volk
01:01:37 – 01:01:38
Yeah. And otherwise.

Mandy Capehart
01:01:38 – 01:02:11
And also too, I just remembered as you were talking, I will tell you that anybody who wants to get like a head start on what grief and Enneagram work together can look like, I’ve seen the benefit of pushing into those uncomfortable places and teaching both myself and my nervous system, how to remain aligned and resting even amid what feels like a threat to my health and my mental stability. Grief can disrupt all of that. And yet it can also be the doorway into like binding restoration in that area as well.

Victoria Volk
01:02:11 – 01:02:15
And where can people reach out to you if they want to learn more?

Mandy Capehart
01:02:15 – 01:02:34
Yeah. So good. So everything is at Mandy Capehart. So my website, mandycapehart.com Instagram, Twitter, Threads, Pinterest, TikTok, but barely all the things, at Mandy Capehart. And then The Restorative Grief Project is my free online coaching group that is posted, excuse me, hosted on Facebook.

Mandy Capehart
01:02:35 – 01:03:18
And it’s just an environment where we can practice grieving together and practice supporting one another and learn how to respond when people hit us platitudes and and learn how to invite our beloved people into the world of grief support without criticizing how they’ve shown up or not shown up in the past. Like, this is an environment and a place where we just hold space for each other and learn what that means to practice breathing with intention. So, Yeah. I love getting messages and DMs and new connections online about these really uncomfortable conversations because they deserve. It turns out every single one of us deserves to have space to fall apart.

Mandy Capehart
01:03:19 – 01:03:21
So that’s the aim of all of it.

Victoria Volk
01:03:22 – 01:03:28
I love that. And I will link to all that in the show notes. Awesome. And thank you so much for your time today, Mandy.

Mandy Capehart
01:03:28 – 01:03:32
Yeah, absolutely. Victoria, thank you for having me. It’s been my pleasure.

Victoria Volk
01:03:32 – 01:03:37
And remember, when you unleash your heart, you unleash your life. Much love.

Ep 174 Debbie R. Weiss | Finding Strength in Struggle: Weight Loss, Widowhood, & Wisdom

Debbie R. Weiss | Finding Strength in Struggle: Weight Loss, Widowhood, & Wisdom

 

SHOW NOTES SUMMARY: 

In this episode of Grieving Voices, we welcome the remarkable Debbie Weiss, a life strategist who has spent over five decades helping others while overcoming her own daunting life challenges.

As an author and podcaster, she offers hope and motivation to many through her memoir “On Second Thought, Maybe I Can” and as a contributing author in “Heart Whispers.”

Key Points:
– At age 50, Debbie experienced what she describes as midlife awareness rather than a crisis.
– She reflects on becoming the primary caregiver for her father after his stroke at just 46 years old — a role that lasted thirty years.
– The pivotal moment came during a girls’ trip when she was 50, where she realized how much of herself was lost in caregiving roles.
– Her journey involved tackling weight loss by changing her mindset about food and diets to embrace it as part of a sustainable lifestyle change.
– Secrets have a way of holding us back, as Debbie encountered and later moved through.
– Being a caregiver for most of one’s life and in different roles has taught Debbie the importance of not caring for others except all else, including self-care. As a caregiving daughter, then as a wife to her terminally ill husband, Garrett, and mother of a son who struggles with mental health challenges, she now advocates for those who’ve given their lives to caregiving or otherwise and are ready to empower themselves.

Takeaways:
Debbie underscores the importance of self-care amidst responsibilities. She emphasizes that mindset is key — changing habits and reframing thoughts towards oneself and one’s goals.

Tune into this powerful conversation full of raw emotion, resilience, insights into mental health struggles within families, and navigating grief after losing loved ones.

RESOURCES:

CONNECT:

_______

NEED HELP?

  • National Suicide Prevention Lifeline: 1-800-273-8255
  • Crisis Text Line provides free, 24/7 support via text message. Text HOME to 741741 to connect with a trained Crisis Counselor

If you are struggling with grief due to any of the 40+ losses, free resources are available HERE.

CONNECT WITH VICTORIA: 

Victoria Volk
(00:00:00 – 00:00:21)
Thank you for tuning in to Grieving Voices. If this is your 1st time listening, welcome., And if you’ve listened before, welcome back. Today, my guest is Debbie Weiss. She is a seasoned life strategist with over 5 decades of experience and has faced some of life’s most daunting challenges head-on and emerged as a beacon of hope and inspiration for others.

Victoria Volk
(00:00:22 – 00:00:47)
As the author of the highly sensitive memoir, On Second Thought, Maybe I Can. And a contributing author in the collaborative book, Heart Whispers, Debbie’s words have the power to uplift and motivate. You can also be uplifted and motivated by Debbie through her podcast, Maybe I Can, and pass along some heart joy to others through her shop of sprinkle of hearts. Thank you so much for being here.

Debbie R. Weiss
(00:00:47 – 00:00:49)
Oh, thank you so much for having me.

Victoria Volk
(00:00:50 – 00:01:18)
So I read about you a little bit  I scoped the the webs and was reading a little bit about your story. And I really wanna I don’t think this has been talked about ever specifically on the podcast in almost 4 years. So I’m excited for that. But you talk a lot about, like, on your website and in your form and stuff that you filled out. Age 50 was this pinnacle year for you.

Victoria Volk
(00:01:19 – 00:01:43)
And it was almost as if, like, for me personally, I had what I call a midlife unraveling. Mine was in my earlier thirties, but which it can happen for any of anytime during your lifetime. Right? But for you, it was around 50. And would you say that that was a midlife unraveling or midlife crisis or midlife awareness or how would you describe that?

Debbie R. Weiss
(00:01:44 – 00:02:19)
I think I would describe it as midlife awareness. At that point, I had been a family caregiver to my father for over 30 years. My oldest son who was diagnosed on the autistic spectrum and at that point, I wasn’t a caregiver to my husband, but just for the 30 years with my dad and then adding my son, took it to a whole new level, and I was stressed. I still had regular responsibilities like we all have.

Debbie R. Weiss
(00:02:19 – 00:02:43)
I was working full time, and I was actually self-employed, so I had to worry about my customers and my employees and whatnot and, of course, things at home and my kids at that age were being, at least my younger one, shuffled off to whatever event but life. Right? And it just never seemed to stop. It was just this get-up. Do it again.

Debbie R. Weiss
(00:02:43 – 00:03:03)
What do I you know, what fires do I have to put out today? hat do I need to make sure to check off my list? And when I turned 50, my friends insisted that we go away for the weekend on a girl’s trip for my birthday. And I thought, oh my goodness. I’d love to do that, but how am I gonna leave my husband?

Debbie R. Weiss
(00:03:03 – 00:03:27)
What you know, with all of these in charge of these things and whatever. And I went. And on that trip, it was the first time in my adult life that I did not have to worry about anybody else but myself. And when they asked me, well, what do you wanna do, or where do you wanna go eat? I’m, like, looking over my shoulder.

Debbie R. Weiss
(00:03:27 – 00:03:59)
Like, are they asking me? And through just reconnecting with my friends and really myself, I kinda came to the realization of who am I? Who have I become? Not that I would ever change taking care of any of my family members. But I had done that at the complete exclusion of taking care of myself. And I think at 50, it was also kind of that mortality motivation thing.

Debbie R. Weiss
(00:03:59 – 00:04:15)
Like, okay, Is my life more than half over? Am I really making it to a 100?  I hope so. But chances are I’m on the downhill slide, let’s say, and I don’t wanna be that person who gets to the end, looks back, and said, what happened?

Debbie R. Weiss
(00:04:15 – 00:04:39)
I just wasted. I don’t wanna say wasted, but I didn’t do what I wanted to do, and I didn’t have anything I wanted to do, by the way. But it just felt like if I didn’t do something and take control in some way at that point. The next 50 years were gonna be gone, and I was gonna be that person looking back. And so that was the moment.

Victoria Volk
(00:04:40 – 00:04:57)
Can we rewind the clock a little bit? I read on your website that it was after like, the day after you graduated high school, your dad had this massive stroke. Yep. Why did the responsibility because people might listen people listening. If I’m curious, they’re probably curious too.

Victoria Volk
(00:04:58 – 00:05:00)
Why did the responsibility fall on you?

Debbie R. Weiss
(00:05:03 – 00:05:20)
So my parents, several years before had been separated off and on. And they got back together., And it’s funny. I don’t know why, my mother is still alive. I’m very happy to say, and I don’t know why I really haven’t discussed this with her.

Debbie R. Weiss
(00:05:21 – 00:05:48)

But I don’t know how their marriage was at that point. My father was days shy of turning 46 when he had the stroke. My mother was 39 years old. And they were separated because my father had an affair. And I think, for my mom, of course, when I was that age, I didn’t understand. Then as an adult, it has a a different perspective.

Debbie R. Weiss
(00:05:49 – 00:06:17)
My mom did what she needed to do for my father. Don’t get me wrong. But it was I always had this daddy’s little girl connection. I have 1 younger brother, so I always grew up feeling like it was kinda 2 teams,  my mother and my brother and my father and I, and he was my hero. He fell from the pedestal with the affair, for sure.

Debbie R. Weiss
(00:06:18 – 00:06:43)
But, still, when I saw my mother was doing what she needed to do as far as getting him the doctors and the care and all of that stuff. But she didn’t really have, like, what I felt she should be compassionate. She didn’t have as much, sympathy or and, again, this was according to what my standards were. I did actually go away to college.

Debbie R. Weiss
(00:06:43 – 00:07:04)
So my father was in the hospital the whole entire summer, very different. This was 1981, very different than how It would work now. And I left for college, which that alone is traumatic. Right? But to know that you’re leaving behind, my dad, I didn’t know what was gonna happen.

Debbie R. Weiss
(00:07:04 – 00:07:37)
I knew, again, he would be safe and taken care of, but not how I felt comfortable. And I went away to school not being invested. And that it’s another whole story. But I wound up leaving school, coming home, attending a local university for a year and a half and taking care of my father at home. So he at the time, he was had a physical therapist and a speech therapist, and I had to do the exercises with him.

Debbie R. Weiss
(00:07:37 – 00:08:12)

And I would actually help him get into a bathing suit so that I could put him onto the chair over the bathtub with the handheld shower and give him a shower. I was doing that. He was still living at home. After a year and a half, now I was 2 years into college, and I thought to myself, kind of like at 50, I lost this college experience that my friends are having. And I’m gonna regret it. And I actually did transfer away to a different yet a third school for the last 2 years.

Debbie R. Weiss
(00:08:12 – 00:08:33)
That’s where I graduated from. In my senior year, my mother had already made the decision that she wanted a divorce. And so she found him a place to live, which back then, like, assisted living, independent living, not like it is today. So she could only we lived in Long Island. She could only find a place in New Jersey.

Debbie R. Weiss
(00:08:33 – 00:09:03)
It was about an hour and a half from where we lived. And there he was at the time, still not even 50, living with 85 year olds. And so once they were divorced, then he was my real responsibility as far as, he didn’t live with me. He did live independently. He was able to do that, but I was the money person because he didn’t have a lot of money, and that changed over the years, and I used I’d had to move him to different places.

Debbie R. Weiss
(00:09:03 – 00:09:27)
And then he had other medical problems, and now I’m learning all about, doctors and specialists, and I didn’t even know what all those ologists were at 22 years old. Right? So that’s kind of how it happened. I did hold a lot of anger and resentment towards my mother. I did for a long time.

Debbie R. Weiss
(00:09:27 – 00:09:44)
But I have come to terms with it because I know that she certainly, in her own mind, didn’t think, oh, I’m gonna saddle my daughter with this. Mhmm. I think she was thinking, and I’m putting words in her mouth. She did take care of him officially, got him what he needed.

Debbie R. Weiss
(00:09:44 – 00:10:04)
If I had a question, it wasn’t like she wasn’t gonna help me. But she wasn’t the person getting the phone calls and having to visit and bring food and whatever. Over the years, I could literally write another book about my 30-year experience with my dad, some funny. So that’s that’s how it happened.

Victoria Volk
(00:10:05 – 00:10:15)
So did you find yourself into a career that like, what what did you go to school for, and did you follow the path that you intended?

Debbie R. Weiss
(00:10:15 – 00:10:49)
I never knew what my path was. I was always a numbers girl, a math girl, but not science. So I knew I didn’t want anything like that. And I originally wanted to go to, law school to become an attorney, a sports attorney to deal with, like, athletes’ contracts and stuff. Well, simultaneously, I was also with my high school boyfriend who I was engaged to by or right after I graduated from college, and I decided not to go to law school at the time.

Debbie R. Weiss
(00:10:49 – 00:10:56)
And I had graduated with a degree in accounting, so I became a CPA. Okay. It was fine.

Victoria Volk
(00:10:57 – 00:11:00)
Did you end up marrying the man that you were engaged to?

Debbie R. Weiss
(00:11:00 – 00:11:35)
Nope. Because he, even though he’ll still deny it, wound up meeting someone else while we were together and left me for her. But in the end, just like so many things like that that are heartbreaking at the time, it was actually, I knew deep in my heart that he was not the right person for me. I just didn’t have a lot of self-confidence or self-esteem, and I felt like I better take whoever’s interested because I’ll probably never meet anyone else. So he did me a favor.

Victoria Volk
(00:11:37 – 00:11:54)
And I think, that can only come in hindsight. Right? And then as we you know, we don’t in the moment, it’s like you think it’s just devastating, and you think your world’s falling apart. And then after you have some time pass and, fall onto a different path. Right?

Victoria Volk
(00:11:54 – 00:12:01)
Because of that, that changes the trajectory of your life. You look back and it’s like, oh, Phew. I dodged a bullet there.

Debbie R. Weiss
(00:12:01 – 00:12:03)
Exactly. Completely.

Victoria Volk
(00:12:04 – 00:12:22)
For 30 years, you cared for your dad. So when so you had a lot of time to have conversations and work through a lot of things maybe that with your mom and all of this the dynamics of the family and things. But when did he recently pass?

Debbie R. Weiss
(00:12:23 – 00:12:36)
No. He passed away in 2011. Literally, like, 30 years. It was he had the stroke in 1981, and he died in 2011, a month before, like, the anniversary of the stroke.

Victoria Volk
(00:12:36 – 00:12:38)
Oh, wow. It’s so young. So young.

Debbie R. Weiss
(00:12:38 – 00:12:52)
So young. Yeah. It was crazy. I mean, we were, of course, I can think of the day it happened. And stroke wasn’t even a term that you would equate to a 45 or 46 year old.

Debbie R. Weiss
(00:12:52 – 00:13:01)
It just was so out of the blue and so left field and bizarre, but things happen.

Victoria Volk
(00:13:02 – 00:13:25)
Coincidentally, just in the last month or so. So my son had a heart murmur found when he was in high in he was 12. Sports physical. And it’s due to when you take your 1st breath when you’re born, the flap between the left and right ventricle doesn’t seal and so it can leak a little blood and you can develop blood clots and stroke is a risk of that. Yeah.

Victoria Volk
(00:13:25 – 00:13:39)
But just in the last month, 2 people I’ve heard well, 1 person I know had a stroke because of that. And another I just found out today another person, they were 33 years old when they had a stroke due to the same thing.

Debbie R. Weiss
(00:13:40 – 00:13:40)
Wow.

Victoria Volk
(00:13:41 – 00:13:59)
And so when children are found to have a heart murmur when they’re young, it’s really important to investigate why why that is? And I’m glad that my son’s doctor had the due diligence to do that, but I’m thinking he’s 18 now, but I’m thinking, man, he should probably start taking a baby aspirin. You know?

Debbie R. Weiss
(00:13:59 – 00:14:01)
Yeah. Yeah. Oh, that’s interesting. So my father

Victoria Volk
(00:14:01 – 00:14:02)
that changes your life.

Debbie R. Weiss
(00:14:02 – 00:14:07)
My goodness. Oh, yes. My father’s stroke was not from that.

Victoria Volk
(00:14:07 – 00:14:09)
Okay. Because he was so young, that’s why.

Debbie R. Weiss
(00:14:09 – 00:14:18)
His carotid arteries were blocked. Come 1 completely blocked. So in your neck here, so the oxygen got cut off to his brain.

Victoria Volk
(00:14:19 – 00:14:30)
So how did that weekend what did your life look like after that girls weekend, which I just wanna say how important it is for people listening, how important girls weekends are.

Debbie R. Weiss
(00:14:30 – 00:14:31)
Oh my goodness.

Victoria Volk
(00:14:31 – 00:14:34)
I take a yearly camping trip with girls, my girlfriends.

Debbie R. Weiss
(00:14:34 – 00:14:35)
Good for you.

Victoria Volk
(00:14:35 – 00:14:37)
And we have for years, and it’s so important.

Debbie R. Weiss
(00:14:38 – 00:15:01)
It’s the best. It’s the best. It’s just so different than anything else and just gives you the time and perspective away to laugh and just relax and enjoy yourself, so I couldn’t agree with you more. It’s always nice to have it on the calendar to whenever we come back from something we just came back from my 60th birthday trip. And so whenever we come back, it’s like, okay.

Debbie R. Weiss
(00:15:01 – 00:15:08)
Now what? We’re planning what the next thing is to at least always have that, Mhmm. To look forward to.

Victoria Volk
(00:15:08 – 00:15:10)
Because if it’s not on the calendar, it won’t happen.

Debbie R. Weiss
(00:15:10 – 00:15:12)
Happen. Exactly. Exactly.

Victoria Volk
(00:15:13 – 00:15:15)
Because everyone has responsibilities. Right?

Debbie R. Weiss
(00:15:16 – 00:15:30)
Absolutely. Yep. You’ve gotta commit to it because it’s easy to say to back out and say, I have too much to do. I can’t go. But unless it’s earth-shattering, life-altering, go.

Debbie R. Weiss
(00:15:31 – 00:15:33)
You’ll be happy you did, for sure.

Victoria Volk
(00:15:34 – 00:15:36)
So what did that look like when you came back?

Debbie R. Weiss
(00:15:36 – 00:15:57)
When I came back, I don’t think then I don’t think that I consciously said, okay. Now I’m gonna start changing my life. But yet, I did decide, to I  guess I should say, you can’t come back and be like, okay. Now I wanna change everything. Right?

Debbie R. Weiss
(00:15:57 – 00:16:21)
That’s way too overwhelming. For me, weight I’ve had a weight problem my whole entire life. Just like many people with weight problem, the normal stuff, go on this, especially as a young child. Diets were different then. This extremely restrictive diet, lose a certain amount, after 3 months of basically being able to only eat lettuce, then it’s like, oh my gosh.

Debbie R. Weiss
(00:16:21 – 00:16:56)
Give me something else, then you taste it. The next thing, the £25 or whatever is back and more and so on and so forth. And at that point, I was I don’t think I was the heaviest I ever was, but I was a 100 pounds overweight. And of all the diets I have done them all, weight watchers was one that was, like, worked for me. And I said, I’m gonna go back to weight watchers, but I’m gonna be different this time.

Debbie R. Weiss
(00:16:56 – 00:17:21)
Because when I went in the past, it’d be like, okay. I need to lose x amount of weight by a certain date or else I’m a failure. And if I don’t eat something on plan, oh, forget it. I might as well just ditch the whole idea. So instead, I said, what I’m gonna do, I’m going to commit to going to the weight watchers meeting one time a week.

Debbie R. Weiss
(00:17:21 – 00:17:32)
That’s it. Nothing to do with how much weight I lose, what I’m eating, if I’m recording my food. None of that. I’m not gonna worry about it. I’m just gonna get going to the meeting down.

Debbie R. Weiss
(00:17:33 – 00:18:02)
And I did that, and I didn’t lose any weight. I didn’t gain any, but I didn’t lose any. And then once I was comfortable with that and actually enjoying the meeting and meeting people and looking forward to going, then I added another layer. So I’m just gonna pay attention or track my food 50% of the time, and got comfortable with that and decided for the first time in my life, there is no endgame here. There is no on-and-off.

Debbie R. Weiss
(00:18:02 – 00:18:16)
This was just when the term lifestyle was being thrown around, but that’s what it was. That’s what I told myself. You’re never gonna be on a diet again. This is a lifestyle.  You’re gonna eat ice cream.

Debbie R. Weiss
(00:18:16 – 00:18:31)
You should eat ice cream. Nothing is forbidden. But just because you ate ice cream doesn’t mean you’re gonna eat ice cream 7 days a week, and you’re gonna add other things. It just doesn’t work like this. It’s a balance, and you’re never gonna be off it.

Debbie R. Weiss
(00:18:33 – 00:18:52)
And for so long, I looked at other people who didn’t have a weight problem, and I just assumed it was easy for them. I’d see them on a Saturday night eating and drinking whatever they wanted. Maybe I don’t think I made the connection. Hey. They don’t eat and drink like that 21 meals a week.

Debbie R. Weiss
(00:18:52 – 00:19:13)
I was so busy feeling sorry for myself, that I didn’t take the time to really be honest with myself. And I think it probably took 2 to 3 years to lose 90 of the £100. I was, as we say, a turtle.

Debbie R. Weiss
(00:19:13 – 00:19:53)
Slow and steady wins the race. And just the fact that I had stuck with something for that long, now it had become my new normal. And I actually have not yet hit that 100 pound mark. And since that time that I hit that number, which was probably 2016 or 17, so for me, 3 6 to 6 years, let’s say, of basically maintaining, I’ve gone up £10, but then I’ve been able to lose it too, is a huge victory. So what changed?

Debbie R. Weiss
(00:19:54 – 00:20:08)
Weight Watchers didn’t change. Yeah. Every year, they make some little tweaks to their program, but it wasn’t that. It was my mindset. It was all in my approach and how I was thinking about the whole thing.

Debbie R. Weiss
(00:20:08 – 00:20:32)
And that was really the start of my understanding howmy  mind, my thoughts has the power to shape my life. I was giving the power to everybody and everything else and taking no responsibility, but yet it was the things I was thinking. I was feeling sorry for myself. Why me? Poor me.

Debbie R. Weiss
(00:20:32 – 00:20:41)
Oh, I might as well just eat a cookie. You know? Whereas, when I change those thoughts, I changed my behavior. Well, and when you’re start.

Victoria Volk
(00:20:42 – 00:20:44)
Congratulations, first of all.

Debbie R. Weiss
(00:20:44 – 00:20:45)
Thank you.

Victoria Volk
(00:20:45 – 00:21:09)
On maintaining and changing your relationship with food because, essentially, that’s really what you did.  Absolutely. I think too, like, with all this, like, if you’re constantly at that fight or flight stress level in your life where you’re just that hamster on the wheel, it’s far easier to just abandon what you know is healthy for you and just choose what’s easiest.

Debbie R. Weiss
(00:21:10 – 00:21:27)
Especially as an emotional stress eater. I would look forward to the end of the day when I could finally sit down, not have anybody ask me for anything. Watch an hour or 2 of TV and eat some snacks. And my husband also had a weight problem.

Debbie R. Weiss
(00:21:28 – 00:21:50)
He didn’t care about it like I did. He couldn’t care less. So, you know, a lot of the times, I had, like, a partner in crime, which, in hindsight, I actually prefer that over the partner who looks at you and watches everything that you’re putting in your mouth. At first, I thought, oh my gosh. It’s even harder having him.

Debbie R. Weiss
(00:21:50 – 00:22:18)
And then when I listened to my friends and what I hear and people watching you, like, I never had to worry about that. And I, for the most part, felt, yes, I would be upset, about how I looked as I would get heavier. But I never felt that his love was tied to my weight, which was how it should be, but it’s not always the case.

Victoria Volk
(00:22:20 – 00:22:27)
As you were changing and coming into these different new awarenesses, did some of that rub off on your husband?

Debbie R. Weiss
(00:22:28 – 00:22:42)
I think so. I don’t think, certainly, he didn’t incorporate my food choices and changes into his life, but he was the, actually, I don’t cook. He did. He loved it. He loved grocery shopping.

Debbie R. Weiss
(00:22:42 – 00:23:01)
That was all him. And he without him, I really couldn’t have done it because I would bring him recipes, and he would make things for me and portion them out. And he was my partner in it. And when he stopped cooking, it was very hard for me.

Victoria Volk
(00:23:02 – 00:23:08)
Did he stop cooking? Did he get sick? Because I know your husband that’s what brought you to the podcast today.

Debbie R. Weiss
(00:23:08 – 00:23:27)
Yeah. So my husband, funny. I would look back and say, boy, you went through male menopause after you turned 50. Everything seemed to like I noticed when he turned 50, he always had a lot of he was diabetic. He had Crohn’s disease.

Debbie R. Weiss
(00:23:29 – 00:24:13)
He had some social anxiety, which I didn’t really understand. And then as my kids were both diagnosed with ADHD, it was clear he had ADHD, but it just seemed like he started getting crankier, which he wasn’t cranky before, it was looking back, it was now I understand more that there was a mental illness component coming into play, but I didn’t understand that then. And so as time went on, it just got worse and worse and worse. And the things that he enjoyed, he was no longer enjoying.

Debbie R. Weiss
(00:24:13 – 00:24:38)
He, it seemed like it now he had to see a cardiologist. Now he had to see whatever it was, it just things started popping up, but yet because of his mental illness, he didn’t take care of them as he should. So I would be making doctor’s appointments for him because I was basically ran in his life. I would be making doctor’s appointments for him, and he wouldn’t go.

Debbie R. Weiss
(00:24:39 – 00:24:55)
And then I’d have to either call or cancel or and reschedule, and it it was like a cycle. And then I had all of these different appointments. Now, simultaneously, he and I worked together. I have an insurance agency. He worked there with me from the beginning.

Debbie R. Weiss
(00:24:55 – 00:25:17)
He was an integral part, I mean, more so than me. He was basically customers loved him. I was more the behind the scenes girl, doing the numbers and keeping the business running. But he was the face that people came to see. And slowly, he would be we would drive separately, and he would drive to work.

Debbie R. Weiss
(00:25:17 – 00:25:37)
And he would text me or call me and say, I’m pulled over on the side of the road. I had to pull over because I was gonna get sick. And I thought this didn’t happen just once. This happened more than once. And then he would pull up in front of the office and call and say, I can’t come in.

Debbie R. Weiss
(00:25:37 – 00:25:51)
I have to go home. Be like, what? And this went on for years, and I thought that it all had to do with his Crohn’s. But looking back, it wasn’t. It was anxiety.

Debbie R. Weiss
(00:25:53 – 00:26:34)
And it just kept getting worse and worse and worse. And I would say that, the last 10 to 12 years of his life, I didn’t really have a husband in the sense that we all think we did not have a physical relationship. We did not, I was just taking care of him, and he and he started doing less and less. Eventually, one day, he just walked out of the office and said, I can never come back. And he left me with I mean, he came back to my house, but he couldn’t go back to the office.

Debbie R. Weiss
(00:26:35 – 00:27:10)
And I said, Garrett, can’t can’t I just bring home the stuff then we just go through it and you tell me who do I need to call, what do I need to do? Like, Customer service is a huge thing for me, so just that gave me anxiety thinking that I was going to let the ball drop on so many things because of his procrastination and his illness, he had stacks of papers miles high in his desk. You couldn’t even see, and he never would do it. He could not do it. And so, long term employee of of mine, she and I went through, and we just called people and said, look.

Debbie R. Weiss
(00:27:10 – 00:27:31)
He had to leave suddenly, and we wanna make sure. What’s outstanding, and everybody was understanding. But for me, that was super difficult because each step of the way, I think, okay. Now he’s home. He doesn’t have the stress of working, so now he should be able to get back to going to the grocery store and cooking, and his mood should improve.

Debbie R. Weiss
(00:27:31 – 00:28:10)
And it didn’t happen. It was just a I think, a very steep decline from that part on, now he wasn’t well, let me just also say simultaneously, our oldest son, at that point, was suffering from depression and anxiety that was pretty intense, and he wound up being hospitalized. And it was traumatic and horrible. And I think that that trauma sealed the deal. And he then, again, I didn’t realize at the time I couldn’t get him out of bed for days.

Debbie R. Weiss
(00:28:10 – 00:28:17)
That was the depression. I would be at work. He would have appointment. I’d be calling, calling, calling the house.

Debbie R. Weiss
(00:28:17 – 00:28:27)
The phone had been ringing. He’d be sleeping. I then I’d be worried. I’d jump in my car and drive home. It was It was so incredibly stressful.

Debbie R. Weiss
(00:28:28 – 00:29:02)
It eventually culminated in May of 2022 with me, somehow and this is a whole mental illness discussion. And it’s very difficult to get somebody hospitalized if they’re not willing, but I was able to get him hospitalized. And in a week, he made an amazing transformation. And he came home from that Hospitalization. He was so happy and upbeat.

Debbie R. Weiss
(00:29:02 – 00:29:19)
He had to go to online therapy 5 days a week for 3 at a time, he was, like, the star in the group. It was like, who is this man? And we had all of us, it was like a cloud lifted. And for the 1st time, I did really feel hopeful. Like, okay.

Debbie R. Weiss
(00:29:19 – 00:29:35)
He’s gonna come through this. And less than 6 weeks later, he was diagnosed with terminal blood cancer. Just talking about it gets me upset. Sorry, It’s just so crazy how life just throws these twists and turns you’re away.

Debbie R. Weiss
(00:29:35 – 00:29:51)
And that was June of 2022, and he died December 30th last year. Sorry. Thanks. And those 6 months were hell.

Debbie R. Weiss
(00:29:52 – 00:30:22)
And, honestly, the physical part, yes, but the mental, it got really bad. So, it’s if somebody because I never had any experience with mental illness. And it’s just like anything else until you do, you just can’t understand it. It is just there’s no look. There’s no logic to disease either, right, with cancer and whatnot, but we all know people.

Debbie R. Weiss
(00:30:23 – 00:30:34)
And there’s protocols. Right? And we know what the odds are, and sometimes they work, and sometimes they don’t. And, you kind of know what the ultimate sometimes you do.

Debbie R. Weiss
(00:30:34 – 00:30:57)
Sometimes you don’t. But with mental illness, It’s like throwing darts at a dartboard. And then when you compound all of these other factors, these physical illnesses. With that, it’s too complex. And, he was, hospitalized for the whole month of November last year in 2 different facilities.

Debbie R. Weiss
(00:30:58 – 00:31:34)
And because of the medications and whatever, he actually had a psychotic break and lost touch with reality. And it was awful. It was medication driven, I think, from what the 1st hospital did and how they took him off some meds too suddenly. And once they got him stable, he came back home, but now he hated me, because I had put him through this. And that was literally the beginning of December.

Debbie R. Weiss
(00:31:36 – 00:31:49)
And then he was not on hospice. He was not it was not one of those things where we knew he was it was imminent. Nope. It came out of the blue. Out of the blue.

Debbie R. Weiss
(00:31:49 – 00:32:07)
And He, in the end, basically made the decision. I don’t know if it was rational, but he was he on Christmas night, he was, I heard him, like, do a little cough. My son had a cold., I’m like, what is that? And he said, oh, no.

Debbie R. Weiss
(00:32:07 – 00:32:23)
It’s nothing. And he really wasn’t coughing, but he then he was tired and he’s very sick. So, you don’t really think too much of it. And then by 2 days later, I was like, I wanna do your blood pressure. I wanna take your temperature.

Debbie R. Weiss
(00:32:23 – 00:32:25)
Now. Now. Now. Now. Leave me alone.

Debbie R. Weiss
(00:32:25 – 00:32:39)
Leave me alone. And I got to do the temperature at least because I could just swipe, and he had a temperature. It wasn’t terrible, but with his situation, that was where I was supposed to call the doctor screaming at me. No. No.

Debbie R. Weiss
(00:32:39 – 00:32:53)
No. The next day, the temperature is a 102. I said, that’s it, and he would not. The next morning at 6 o’clock in the morning, he basically he couldn’t move. I had now I was sleeping.

Debbie R. Weiss
(00:32:54 – 00:33:12)

So I had, I have a bedroom upstairs. He had he couldn’t go upstairs anymore, so I actually, the room that I’m sitting in now, it’s a little office in my downstairs. I turned this into a bedroom. So he was downstairs. I was sleeping upstairs, but he had a upstairs, but he had a funny feeling.

Debbie R. Weiss
(00:33:12 – 00:33:27)
He just didn’t wanna be alone. So I had been sleeping on an air mattress in my family room and so I could hear him to help him. And, basically, he wound up falling. I couldn’t get him up. I tried to get my sons to help.

Debbie R. Weiss
(00:33:27 – 00:33:40)
We couldn’t move them, and I at this point, he’s got this fever. I said, I don’t care what you say. I’m calling. They came. They said you have to go to the hospital, and told them all the reasons.

Debbie R. Weiss
(00:33:40 – 00:34:00)
And he just dug in and said, I am not going, so stop talking to me. And one of the EMTs said to me, we’ll be back today, and he might not be conscious. And I didn’t have a choice. What do you do?

Debbie R. Weiss
(00:34:01 – 00:34:20)
And was he did he know? Was he giving up? Did he was just so sick of hospitals at that point, especially after that traumatic experience. And about noon, his temperature was a 103, and I said, okay.

Debbie R. Weiss
(00:34:21 – 00:34:32)
I’m done.  And he was having trouble breathing, and he got scared. And he said, okay. And I called. And now, we’ve had a lot of trips to the hospital.

Debbie R. Weiss
(00:34:32 – 00:34:48)
And since he did have some OCD tendencies, so I knew all the things that I had to get for him to make him feel good. And I’m gathering that stuff, and he wants him to get dressed. And I’m, like, yelling not yelling at him, but get dressed. You don’t need to get dressed. You’re going to the hospital.

Debbie R. Weiss
(00:34:48 – 00:35:09)
Okay. I helped him get his pants on, and he’s, his breathing is labored, and he says to me, what’s taking them so long? And I looked and I said, are you kidding me right now? Because it’s how we talk to each other. Like, after this morning, now you’re annoyed that they’re taking so long.

Debbie R. Weiss
(00:35:09 – 00:35:20)
And he said, are you really saying that to me right now? I said, okay. I guess you’re right. And it was interesting because he said to me, are you coming? And I thought, am I coming?

Debbie R. Weiss
(00:35:20 – 00:35:36)
When am I never not come? Of course. I’m gonna be right behind you. Turned out in the hospital, he went into in the on the ambulance, he went into respiratory failure. And they asked him if he wanted to be intubated, which he had said, before that he didn’t.

Debbie R. Weiss
(00:35:36 – 00:35:55)
But in the moment, he did. But he died less than 24 hours later. So that was our last conversation, which I don’t have regrets about. I honestly feel it was appropriate. But I often wonder, what was going through his head at the time?

Debbie R. Weiss
(00:35:55 – 00:36:06)
Did he hope that that would that this was gonna be over finally, or was he just his usual stubborn self and just did not wanna go to that hospital because he hated it.

Victoria Volk
(00:36:09 – 00:36:29)
And it’s so unfortunate because I’m an end of trained end-of-life doula too in, people with terminal illness and terminal cancer. There is such a there is a way to have a death on your terms, how you want it to be. But people are so afraid to go into hospice.

Debbie R. Weiss
(00:36:31 – 00:36:31)
You can be

Victoria Volk
(00:36:31 – 00:36:33)
on hospice for years. You have to be a

Debbie R. Weiss
(00:36:33 – 00:36:34)
candidate for it. But, Yep.

Victoria Volk
(00:36:34 – 00:37:14)
I mean, it’s 6 months, and most people don’t make it because they die in the hospital. But it is possible to if the family is just open to and that’s hard for the family to get to that point to be able to let go and to say to accept that that’s at the phase that that person that is at in their life, but It can be a very beautiful experience and a beautiful and I’m sure people are rolling their eyes as I say that, but I’ve had people on this podcast you have shared with me. I’m my own dad passed away in a nursing home.

Debbie R. Weiss
(00:37:14 – 00:37:15)
Mine too.

Victoria Volk
(00:37:16 – 00:37:19)
You know? It’s like, he’s 44 years old.

Debbie R. Weiss
(00:37:19 – 00:37:20)
My goodness.

Victoria Volk
(00:37:21 – 00:37:30)
You know? Like, he could have died at home had there been this and this is in late eighties. You know? Had there’s this there’s support., There’s resources in most areas.

Victoria Volk
(00:37:30 – 00:37:55)
I recognize that rural America is like thumbs down in that department because there’s just a lack of resources and sources and support when it comes to end of life. But it’s so possible to have a death with dignity. And there’s actually a nonprofit called Die death with dignity. They’re trying to get legislation passed in across America. And, anyway, I’ll link to that in the show notes.

Victoria Volk
(00:37:55 – 00:38:00)
But, thank you for sharing that story. Yeah. I hope

Debbie R. Weiss
(00:38:00 – 00:38:04)
It wasn’t too much. You know, as I got talking, I realized, oh my goodness. Boy.

Victoria Volk
(00:38:05 – 00:38:14)
It’s a lot. It’s just a lot for 1 person to have on their shoulders. Did you have support during that time?

Debbie R. Weiss
(00:38:15 – 00:38:27)
Yeah. I mean, obviously. No, I shouldn’t say obviously. I luckily, I do have a very wonderful group of locse friends that were there.

Debbie R. Weiss
(00:38:28 – 00:38:46)
But, honestly, nobody could help me. I mean, they listened to me.  And, you know, it was that guilt between I want them to stop suffering. Right? But you hate to say I want him to die because I don’t.

Debbie R. Weiss
(00:38:47 – 00:39:13)
But to watch what happened to him and, again, there was a whole bunch of physical things. He was in a lot of pain. To watch that, I don’t want that. Like, if I’m if he’s never gonna be the other person, then why on the one hand, and he was so stubborn that, it was very hard because I, like, I thought I’ve got to bring someone in here to help me.

Debbie R. Weiss
(00:39:13 – 00:39:29)
I was cleaning up all out. It was just a mess. And it was it was it was it was too much. And talking about my oldest son I have 2 sons. My oldest son, and my husband, very similar talk about love hate. So difficult. So I was always trying to play the referee between

Debbie R. Weiss
(00:39:30 – 00:40:05)
They were always the 2 of them, and that’s before he got diagnosed with the cancer. So for several years, when my son’s mental illness, really got pretty bad he had my son’s mental illness, came out in anger in a lot of ways. So it was, not physically towards people, but it was a very volatile environment.

Debbie R. Weiss
(00:40:05 – 00:40:28)
My poor younger son, that’s a another whole story. But so how could my friends you know, I felt like I was really living in a nightmare, but I was just trying to make sure everybody was okay. Keep them apart. Well and they were arguing. I would just try and  figure out how to go to your corners and make everybody happy and do what I needed to do for everyone.

Debbie R. Weiss
(00:40:29 – 00:40:54)
And here’s the thing is that I am so fortunate that I have a team at my insurance agency who is always there for me. And in those 6 months, I didn’t have to worry about my business. Yes. I had to pay my bills, and I had to pay them, and I had to answer some emails and all of that.

Debbie R. Weiss
(00:40:55 – 00:41:22)
But I did not have to be in the office. I did not have to be online. Yes. Again, there were things I had to take care of, but for the most part, that was removed from my life, and I could never have survived if that hadn’t happened. Something woulda had to give because I was able to then take all of my energy and time and devoted to what was going on at home.

Victoria Volk
(00:41:24 – 00:41:43)
And imagine all the people that don’t have that. And so thank you for acknowledging that it is up to us to create that for ourselves, to rally the people around you that fill the roles that are supportive.

Debbie R. Weiss
(00:41:45 – 00:42:00)
Yeah. I am still to this day because they’re still doing it for me. I am just so incredibly grateful for these women, and I try and tell them as often as often as I can that it doesn’t sound insincere.

Victoria Volk
(00:42:01 – 00:42:26)
And just and you’re sharing your story, it just I can just feel the heaviness of what the environment was probably like living in between your son and your husband and how much of what your son was going through, how much of it do you think was grief of just witnessing what he was witnessing? I mean, did he look at his father like he that was his hero as you did your father?

Debbie R. Weiss
(00:42:28 – 00:42:53)
I think so. I think so until they started having this kind of relationship. My son has problems processing his emotions, or I should say, he processes them to the extreme. So every little thing that happened, he took to the extreme. My husband could’ve said or did something, and my son can’t let anything roll off to his shoulders.

Debbie R. Weiss
(00:42:55 – 00:43:32)
Since my husband is gone and my younger son is away at college, There’s a calmness, I often think how different the feel in the house is I think that on the one hand, but on the other hand, my son needs some help that I’ve kinda given this year to letting him grieve because look. As we know, grief is hard for everyone, and we all do it and process it. Different timelines, different terms. It comes. It goes.

Debbie R. Weiss
(00:43:32 – 00:43:51)
You don’t know when it’s gonna show up. Even when you think everything is fine, the next thing you know, you’re crying. And for somebody like my son, it is even more difficult. But, he’s a work in progress and he’s still a concern for me?

Victoria Volk
(00:43:53 – 00:43:55)
You know what? We all are. Yes.

Debbie R. Weiss
(00:43:55 – 00:43:55)
We all are

Victoria Volk
(00:43:55 – 00:43:56)
a work in progress.

Debbie R. Weiss
(00:43:57 – 00:43:58)
Yes. You’re right.

Victoria Volk
(00:43:59 – 00:44:08)
Did they ever make a connection between the blood cancer and because, like, with the blood brain barrier, nothing.

Debbie R. Weiss
(00:44:09 – 00:44:16)
Really? I kept saying, isn’t this is this related to this? Is this what nope. No. And it could be.

Debbie R. Weiss
(00:44:16 – 00:44:39)
Maybe it’s just something. Why were they gonna take the time to figure out, all the pieces of the puzzle? Because at that point, it was what it was with the, blood cancer. There was nothing that could be done other than he was initially had started chemo. That was only supposed to try and extend his life for a little bit.

Debbie R. Weiss
(00:44:39 – 00:44:40)
It was never going to be a cure.

Victoria Volk
(00:44:43 – 00:45:06)
You said something, I think it was on your website that you had this belief that it is what it is. Mhmm.  And Yeah. In grief recovery and what I’ve learned about grief is when people say that it’s generally a way to bypass our emotions. Do you still hold that belief?

Debbie R. Weiss
(00:45:07 – 00:45:18)
No. I don’t hold that belief. When I said that, it really wasn’t about grief. It was about my life. It was this is my life.

Debbie R. Weiss
(00:45:18 – 00:45:20)
It is what it is. Like,

Victoria Volk
(00:45:20 – 00:45:21)
When things happen about

Debbie R. Weiss
(00:45:21 – 00:45:21)
It. Yes.

Victoria Volk
(00:45:21 – 00:45:23)
Yes. When things happen. Yes.

Debbie R. Weiss
(00:45:23 – 00:45:23)
Like, it

Victoria Volk
(00:45:23 – 00:45:24)
is what it is.

Debbie R. Weiss
(00:45:24 – 00:45:40)
But Yes. But No control. But, no, I, a 1000% don’t believe it. That’s what I believed for too long, and It’s only been since that belief changed that my life doesn’t even resemble what it used to.

Debbie R. Weiss
(00:45:40 – 00:45:48)
And that’s because I took control, and I continue to take control. And it’s an amazing feeling.

Victoria Volk
(00:45:48 – 00:45:59)
You mentioned the weight and shifting your focus and your mindset around that. In what other ways? What has opened up for you in the last 6 years.

Debbie R. Weiss
(00:46:01 – 00:46:47)
Probably the next area that I focused on was money. It was a money troubles were a dirty, deep, dark secret for me, especially because I have I am a CPA no longer practicing, but I practice for 10 years, run a business. And for years, for a variety of reasons, and there was a ton of excuses that I will tell you that I was telling myself, which were, when my son was first diagnosed, none of his therapy was covered. I would stop at nothing. I didn’t care if I had to live in a shed, I was going to do whatever I could to help my son.

Debbie R. Weiss
(00:46:47 – 00:47:14)
And so that kind of started, the downhill slide where, okay. I’ll take a 2nd mortgage. I’ll do this. I’ll do that. And then, it then morphed from there already being in trouble to, something that happened in the insurance industry in my state that caused me to lose 20% of my income or so right after we had bought our house, and it just kind of, like, continued.

Debbie R. Weiss
(00:47:15 – 00:47:48)
And what wound up happening was I knew that we needed to make a change. Anytime that I would like just gently say to my husband, like, maybe you should pay attention to how much you’re spending at the grocery store. He would get depressed and anxious and take it to the extreme, and I couldn’t stand that. So I didn’t say anything. So I would keep it inside, and then things would get worse, and I would see what was happening.

Debbie R. Weiss
(00:47:48 – 00:48:15)
And then since I’m self-employed, I have to pay my own income taxes, and I couldn’t make the payments. And then I’d say, okay. I’ll catch up next time. And then next thing it was a whole year, and it was a spiral, and I was too embarrassed to tell any person in my life, even my closest friends and family. I was mortified, and I realized actually, I’ll tell you what.

Debbie R. Weiss
(00:48:15 – 00:48:32)
This was another moment. In February of 2020, right before lockdown, my cousin and I went to see Oprah live in Brooklyn. She was I don’t remember what she called it. It was like a transformational tour. It tour was kind of in connection with Weight Watchers, and she went to, like, 10 cities.

Debbie R. Weiss
(00:48:32 – 00:48:46)
Each city, it was a whole day thing. And each city, she had a special guest star. And we went to this, and it was wonderful. And at the end of the day you know, I’m in a big arena, 16,000 people. The end of the day, they turned down the lights.

Debbie R. Weiss
(00:48:46 – 00:49:23)
It’s just Oprah and the microphone, and she tells some story from her childhood, that was very vulnerable. And she said something like, What secret are you hiding? What is it that you are not addressing that you’re trying to ignore because you know you have it. And I’m gonna tell you, if you don’t take control. It’s going to erupt like a volcano, and you will have no control over what happens.

Debbie R. Weiss
(00:49:24 – 00:49:39)
If you own up and take control now. You might not like what you need to do, but I can guarantee it’s gonna be better than that eruption.  And I started crying because I knew exactly what it was. It was the money.

Victoria Volk
(00:49:40 – 00:50:04)
Before we hear more about the secret Debbie knew she was keeping, I have a little shot of magic to share with you, something that has become an essential part of my creative flow, Magic Mind. Now I know life can get hectic, especially now during the holidays, and sometimes we need that extra boost to stay focused, energized, and alert. And, hello, family dynamics. Right? That’s where Magic Mind comes in.

Victoria Volk
(00:50:04 – 00:50:40)
It’s not your average energy drink. It’s a carefully crafted and patented blend of nootropics, adaptogens and other boosting ingredients designed to enhance your cognitive function and provide sustained energy throughout the day. I’ve been incorporating Magic Mind into my routine for a while now, and the results have been nothing short of impressive. I’m particularly fond of the calmness I feel that in turn reduces the overwhelm of everything I’m trying to accomplish that day. Whether it’s tackling a demanding workday or staying sharp during a creative session, like recording this podcast, Magic Mind has become my secret weapon.

Victoria Volk
(00:50:41 – 00:50:56)
But don’t just take my word for it. Listeners of Grieving Voices can now get an exclusive offer. Head to magicmind.com/grieving voices and enter the code grieving voices at checkout for 20% off your order. Yes. You heard that right.

Victoria Volk
(00:50:56 – 00:51:10)
20% off just for being a part of my podcast community. In January, they will also be launching in all sprouts markets. Why settle for the ordinary when you can experience the extraordinary with Magic Mind? Elevate your mind. Elevate your life.

Victoria Volk
(00:51:10 – 00:51:23)
Visit magicmind.com/grieving voices and use the code grieving voices for an exclusive discount. Trust me. Your mind will thank you. Now let’s get back to learning Debbie’s Secret, shall we?

Debbie R. Weiss
(00:51:25 – 00:51:46)
I went home, and I thought, okay. If I’m you know? Then I really was trying to I wanted to sell my house. But I kinda ran into the same thing. You know, my husband, my son, I even tried to, like, plant a seed, give them a little time to, but that was tough.

Debbie R. Weiss
(00:51:46 – 00:52:00)
So I thought, okay. Until I can get a that across I mean, I even had I had realtor come. We have a lot of fit like, things wrong with the house than it was, oh my goodness. This needs to be fit. Like, we can’t even put it on the market and I’ve gotta spend $20,000.

Debbie R. Weiss
(00:52:00 – 00:52:13)
I don’t have $20,000. So I said, okay., Let me think. What else can I do? And I started by actually, this is when maybe it had been popular for a couple years selling things on Facebook.

Debbie R. Weiss
(00:52:15 – 00:52:26)
And I thought, well, what good is that gonna do? But it’s kind of the same thing with the Weight Watchers thing. Right? like, what good is just going to the meeting? Well, what good is it if I just sell this thing?

Debbie R. Weiss
(00:52:26 – 00:52:43)
How much am I gonna get? But it turned into fun. And I was running around my house looking for things that I could sell. And even if I sold something for $2. It was, like, so exciting because it was like, you see?

Debbie R. Weiss
(00:52:43 – 00:52:54)
Look. I found some things that were locked away in my basement, I didn’t even know. I then actually started going on, and I can’t remember what website it was on. Mercari maybe. Selling and shipping.

Debbie R. Weiss
(00:52:55 – 00:53:14)
And I turned it into, like, this whole fun game. And that kinda made me think, well, I did this. Let me research what other people do. What are other ways to make money? And and that was kind of like my next moment.

Debbie R. Weiss
(00:53:14 – 00:53:30)
Also, then, at the same time, addressing where I was with my tax situation, wI was with my debt, I went to a I explored my options. Right? I went to a bankruptcy attorney. I went to a tax attorney. I you know?

Debbie R. Weiss
(00:53:30 – 00:53:37)
And kinda came up with a plan, and I was taking control.

Victoria Volk
(00:53:39 – 00:53:42)
And was this at the same time as your husband’s decline?

Debbie R. Weiss
(00:53:43 – 00:53:59)
Yeah. pretty much because my son was hospitalized in June of 2020, so that was February of 2020. So, yes, it was all kind of happening simultaneously, which also, really was a problem for me selling the house.

Victoria Volk
(00:54:01 – 00:54:13)
And energetically. Okay. Money is money is a currency. Right? Money is energy, and it I would argue it maybe wasn’t necessarily even about the money, but it was the it was what money meant.

Victoria Volk
(00:54:14 – 00:54:28)
Right? What money meant and where you were at in your life with money and that relationship with money. And so as you were making space energetically, did you start to see opportunities coming in?

Debbie R. Weiss
(00:54:29 – 00:54:55)
I did because I opened my eyes to things out there that I never would have thought of before. Just like selling the Stop on Facebook or Shipping the things. Right? And then I started thinking, well, it was such a journey. I started thinking to myself, well, I can go to my insurance agency, right, and try and figure out a way to sell more and make more money, which I did look at that.

Debbie R. Weiss
(00:54:55 – 00:55:09)
But It didn’t light me up. I had been looking. What is it? I always it not at me that I could never figure out what’s my passion? What’s my purpose?

Debbie R. Weiss
(00:55:09 – 00:55:16)
Did I really wanna be an attorney? Did I wanna be a CPA?  Like, who knows? I’m watching my son now. He doesn’t know what the heck he wants to be.

Debbie R. Weiss
(00:55:16 – 00:55:27)
He’s gonna be a 2nd semester junior. He’s he said the other day. Oh, I’m panic stricken to graduate because he has no idea what he wants to do. So I’ve been searching.

Debbie R. Weiss
(00:55:28 – 00:55:50)
And, At the time, I had just started using these supplements that, a podcaster that I listened to, used and was selling.  And I thought, because I think I have a very you know? I’m leery. I’m a New Yorker. I’m like, oh, yeah.

Debbie R. Weiss
(00:55:50 – 00:56:08)
This is just a ploy. And I listened to her talk about it for a year or so, and I said, oh goodness. Let me just try. And for me, it really made a difference, like, in my mood, in my energy. I, you know, I was, like, ready to go, but not in a cap there was no caffeine, so it wasn’t that kind of way.

Debbie R. Weiss
(00:56:08 – 00:56:44)
And so I thought to myself, well, I’m can only be passionate about what I’m feel passionate about.  And I felt like this was really making a difference in my life, so I decided this must be where I need to go. Follow this this feeling. And, I really started, I think, at that time paying attention to, like, the messages that were being sent to me. Really trying to tune into my heart and my gut instead of my mind.

Debbie R. Weiss
(00:56:45 – 00:57:12)
Because Earlier with that podcaster, actually, I signed up for a course of hers. It was more money than I could have ever imagined. Again, money was an issue. So my logical brain said, are you out of your mind? You’re supposed to be figuring out how to get more money, and now you’re spending money you don’t have, but something kept bringing me back back to signing up.

Debbie R. Weiss
(00:57:12 – 00:57:26)
What was the draw? And I listened to that instead of my logical brain. And it was all about mindset. And that was, like, start of the start of my formal training on mindset.

Debbie R. Weiss
(00:57:27 – 00:57:56)
And so it was that same podcaster who then had talked about this mastermind group that she belonged to. I had no idea what a mastermind was. She brought on her coach, and she was in an elite mastermind, which were business people who, were making over a certain amount of money  But he had, like, a basic level mastermind for people making, like, 0 to 500,000, and I thought, well, I’m making 0, so that’s perfect., I’m gonna join this mastermind.

Debbie R. Weiss
(00:57:56 – 00:58:14)
They’re gonna show me how to sell this stuff, and here we go. And I walked into I I Like to say, I, like, walked into The Wizard of Oz. Where is this online world? I had no I had just been introduced to podcasts, for goodness sake. I had no idea this whole world existed.

Debbie R. Weiss
(00:58:14 – 00:58:34)
And then I saw people who were taking their experiences and sharing and helping other people just like you’re doing., Right? Which when I think to myself, I was so stuck on, well, don’t they need some certification? Don’t they? You know?

Debbie R. Weiss
(00:58:34 – 00:58:47)
Gosh. Who do you wanna learn from? I wanna learn from someone who walked in my shoes. Right?, Mean, none of our experiences are exactly identical, but there’s a lot of general stuff here that we can all relate to.

Debbie R. Weiss
(00:58:48 – 00:59:12)
And when I learned of that, I said, okay. I’m still taking my supplement. I like it and all, But that’s not it. And, it’s another whole story, but I started something at that time called the caregiver support squad, which was to help family caregivers learn to prioritize their own self care.

Victoria Volk
(00:59:13 – 00:59:21)
Which by that point, you’ve become very much an expert. Right? The hard knocks of caregiving. Right? For sure.

Victoria Volk
(00:59:21 – 00:59:22)
PhD in caregiving?

Debbie R. Weiss
(00:59:22 – 00:59:30)
Yes. That’s right. I didn’t need to go and get that PhD from an accredited university. Life experience gives you all you need.

Victoria Volk
(00:59:32 – 00:59:33)
So when did the book come about?

Debbie R. Weiss
(00:59:35 – 01:00:08)
So what I discovered after I started the caregiver support squad is the people that I was working with, it was very hard for them and understandably, as I just spilled my guts to you, to them for them not to spend the time sharing the difficulties they were having with their loved one. And I didn’t want to be about that. I wanted to be about what can we do for you.  What lights you up? Let’s work together to figure out how we can work self-care into your life.

Debbie R. Weiss
(01:00:09 – 01:00:47)
And I just wasn’t at a point where I could take on their difficulties. Because it was difficult for me to sit there and listen to other people’s difficulties, while I was in the thick of it. And at that time, I realized, I feel like what I’ve learned is broader message. Self-care for caregivers, a 1000%. But I think what I’ve really learned Is that a quote from The Wizard of Oz, which is my favorite now?

Debbie R. Weiss
(01:00:48 – 01:00:57)
Got it right here. Someone gave it to me in a little makeup bag. It’s from Glenda the Good Witch, and it says, you’ve always had the power, my dear. You just had to learn it for yourself.

Victoria Volk
(01:00:59 – 01:01:00)
I just got full body chills.

Debbie R. Weiss
(01:01:01 – 01:01:39)
And how many times did I hear that quote and didn’t really get it? But when I heard it, I got it. And I want from there, that’s when I pivoted and said, if I was 50 plus and I didn’t know it, I consider myself a fairly intelligent person. There must be other people out there who are just like me, who just don’t think there’s another way. Who can tell you why they can’t because that was me.

Debbie R. Weiss
(01:01:40 – 01:01:58)
So I get it. But yet I see what has happened since I shifted my mindset. And so I said, I need to reach all of those people and shake them and tell them, no. It doesn’t have to be this way. But how do I reach them?

Debbie R. Weiss
(01:01:59 – 01:02:06)
It’s like everything else. Right? Podcasts, social media. Like, you just wanna stand and scream. I want a megaphone that everybody should hear.

Debbie R. Weiss
(01:02:08 – 01:02:28)
And, again, I never wanted to write a book. As I said, I’m a numbers person. Never thought, ever dreamt of it.  And I listened to the signs. And, I, again, with a different podcast, a woman was on being interviewed, and she helped first time authors get their story out there.

Debbie R. Weiss
(01:02:28 – 01:02:41)
And I thought, this is not even a regular podcast I listen to. This was meant for me to be heard. Like, this I was meant to listen to this because other things were kept telling me about a book, and I was like, no. I can’t do that. I can’t.

Debbie R. Weiss
(01:02:41 – 01:02:56)
I can’t. I can’t. And I connected with her, and, I guess that was, that was it. I said, let me join the course. And then, couple weeks later, my husband was diagnosed with the cancer.

Debbie R. Weiss
(01:02:56 – 01:03:30)
And I went to my therapist, and I said, I’m embarrassed that I’m even bringing this up. When this is going on in my life, I feel so selfish that I’m actually still considering taking this course. And she said, no. I disagree with you. She said this is exactly what you need because you need something right now because you’re gonna be going through an intense period of time, we don’t know what that’s gonna look like, but you need something completely separate from that just for yourself.

Debbie R. Weiss
(01:03:31 – 01:03:46)
And, being the a student that I am, I’m like, well, what if I can’t show up every week? Or what if there’s homework and I didn’t do the homework. And what if I have to read out loud? And then I’m gonna be embarrassed because I don’t know how to write. I mean, I had every excuse in the book.

Debbie R. Weiss
(01:03:46 – 01:03:54)
And she said, who cares? Who cares? And I thought, well, I guess, at least, I have a good excuse. Right? You know what?

Debbie R. Weiss
(01:03:54 – 01:04:25)
I won’t show up as a bad student. I people will understand. And, you know, the minute that I was in, it was a very intimate group, all writing about different things, all first time authors. And, it was it was an amazing experience that I’m still on that has started me on a trajectory that I could never ever. I wouldn’t I wouldn’t have bet, a bazillion dollars that I would ever be an author.

Debbie R. Weiss
(01:04:25 – 01:05:10)
And now writing my 2nd book and already thinking about other books, it’s like, who am I? And all because, basically, I followed I followed the whispers and really tried to tune into my gut instead of the I can’t that always comes into my head, and that’s one of the reasons my book is named On Second Thought, Maybe I Can, because I spent my life saying I can’t and telling myself and others all the reasons why I couldn’t do something. And it could be a small thing or a big thing. And, if we just take a pause and see what lives on the other side and say, well, wait a minute. Maybe I can.

Debbie R. Weiss
(01:05:11 – 01:05:12)
That’s where my life has changed.

Victoria Volk
(01:05:15 – 01:05:18)
So good. That was all so good.

Debbie R. Weiss
(01:05:18 – 01:05:25)
Yeah. I never said it like that before. Boy, that did sound good, but it’s true. It’s true. It’s so true.

Debbie R. Weiss
(01:05:25 – 01:05:35)
I just hope I get that across. I really mean it. And I hope this doesn’t come across as bragging because it’s not

Victoria Volk
(01:05:35 – 01:05:38)
No. I’m gonna say, I want you to brag.

Debbie R. Weiss
(01:05:38 – 01:06:00)
Okay. Well, I’m gonna tell you because I’m preparing right now. It’ll have been done by the time this airs for a master class tomorrow. And, Lauren, that’s my writing coach who I still work with. She said to me the other day, have you sat back and thought about all that has happened to you this year?

Debbie R. Weiss
(01:06:01 – 01:06:11)
It’s like, what do you mean? She starts naming the things. I’m not it’s like something happens. It’s fun. It’s exciting.

Debbie R. Weiss
(01:06:11 – 01:06:25)
Onto the next thing. Onto the next thing. Onto the next thing. And I realized that that’s something that I need to get better at is in I do enjoy the moment when it happens, but then I’m very quick to say, okay. And what do I have to do next?

Debbie R. Weiss
(01:06:25 – 01:06:44)
What are we on to next? What are we on to next? And I that’s my personality. But looking back and and celebrating the wins, The big wins and the small wins. So my husband passed away December 30th, and does it the Sprinkle of Hearts store opened January 14th.

Debbie R. Weiss
(01:06:44 – 01:07:21)
That was another whole thing that was in the works, prior. And a week after my husband died, I had a TikTok video that went viral. I wasn’t even on like, I was on TikTok, but I don’t go on TikTok. I had a virtual assistant who was posting on social media. And at the time I was making videos every day with no makeup, I still do that a lot, walking my dog in the morning, and I just would turn on my camera and say whatever was on my mind, like, whatever.

Debbie R. Weiss
(01:07:22 – 01:07:57)
No preconceived nothing. And most of the time, first take, that was that. And this particular day, it started with it’s been 8 days since my husband died. And I went on to say that everything in my life feels out of control, and I think I was talking about, I’m eating cookies for breakfast, my exercise routine, and then went on, obviously, to say how my whole life is turned upside down. And it wound up getting 3,700,000 views.

Debbie R. Weiss
(01:07:59 – 01:08:23)
I got, oh my gosh. the most amazing outpouring of love through comments. I was I was blown away. Blown away. I just you you just don’t know.

Debbie R. Weiss
(01:08:23 – 01:08:33)
You just don’t know.  I gained, like, I don’t know. 59,000 followers.  It was it was crazy. It was so crazy.

Debbie R. Weiss
(01:08:34 – 01:09:02)
But so crazy in such an amazing way because it literally felt like the whole world was giving me a hug. And for whatever I said, I must have said something about walking, and it turned into this thing like, Debbie, I’m gonna walk with you. Mhmm. Like, I’m gonna walk this journey with you of, like, getting your life back together. It was so that’s how the year started.

Debbie R. Weiss
(01:09:02 – 01:09:19)
And then, I was able I was, let me just say, like, nobody. I have no connections, so I wanna make that clear. It’s not like, oh, she’s got a name and no. No. No.

Debbie R. Weiss
(01:09:20 – 01:09:26)
I’m an Oprah insider. $25. Right. I don’t know how many other people. Oh, millions.

Debbie R. Weiss
(01:09:26 – 01:09:37)
Right? I get an email. Oprah’s gonna be taping one of her insider shows in New York. I live in New Jersey. On this date, we, and it’s about we.

Debbie R. Weiss
(01:09:38 – 01:09:53)
And so they just asked, only respond if you, a 100% can make it because there’s limited tickets. Anyway, it was a whole thing. I was visualizing. I had a whole thing going on. I wind up getting the tickets.

Debbie R. Weiss
(01:09:54 – 01:10:18)
It was an amazing experience less than a 100 people in a little office not a little, but in the hearst office building, so not little. And at the end of the it was 2 shows, actually. And at the end of the taping of the 2nd show, Oprah was, like, hanging out. And I had taken my book. And in my book, I have the story about February 2020.

Debbie R. Weiss
(01:10:19 – 01:10:33)
And so I wrote something in the front of the book. I put a bookmark, where that was, and she was take she was wonderful. She was taking selfies with people, and I was right there. I don’t even wanna say stage. It was a little riser.

Debbie R. Weiss
(01:10:34 – 01:10:55)
And I’m waiting, looking for something. I’m waiting, and she comes up to me, and I’m holding my book. And she looks like only talking to me. And I got to tell her, you changed my life by something you said in I saw you February 2020. And she said, what did I say?

Debbie R. Weiss
(01:10:55 – 01:11:15)
And I told her. And then I went on to tell her, and I wrote about it in this book. You know, because of that, that eventually led to this book. It’s this is my, like, crappy printed picture, but it was it was incredible. I mean, we walked out of there, my cousin and I, and she said, what’s wrong with you?

Debbie R. Weiss
(01:11:15 – 01:11:26)
And I said, what do you mean? And she said, you’re so calm. And she started screaming, you just gave your book to Oprah. And I thought, oh my gosh. Oh my gosh.

Debbie R. Weiss
(01:11:26 – 01:11:47)
Like, how did this even happen? So and then a few weeks later, my book was published. That was actually before it was published, so I had this wonderful book launch. And then I represented all family caregivers on The Kelly Clarkson Show. It actually comes out today as we’re talking oh my gosh.

Debbie R. Weiss
(01:11:48 – 01:12:00)
Congratulations. Thank you. Yep. So she has a segment at the end of each of her show called what I’m liking. And so it was a Skype interview, in honor of National Family Caregiver Month.

Victoria Volk
(01:12:00 – 01:12:02)
December is National Family

Debbie R. Weiss
(01:12:02 – 01:12:05)
Caregiver Month. November was. Oh, November 12. In November. Yes.

Debbie R. Weiss
(01:12:05 – 01:12:13)
So it was November. So it comes out today, which is the 28th, November 28th. But you can always go to Kelly’s YouTube channel and find it.

Victoria Volk
(01:12:14 – 01:12:23)
Please send me the link, and I will put that in the show notes. I will. And I can’t believe I completely missed National Caregiver Month. I, like, completely missed that.

Debbie R. Weiss
(01:12:23 – 01:12:25)
Well, that’s okay. Now you won’t next year.

Victoria Volk
(01:12:25 – 01:12:32)
Now I won’t next year. Yeah., Those are huge wins. It sounds like a lot of full-circle moments.

Debbie R. Weiss
(01:12:32 – 01:13:00)
Yeah. Exactly. And like I said, it’s not like I I mean, I just explained my life to you. None of those things I could have ever imagined, predicted nothing, and it never would have happened if I didn’t just make that switch in my head and start viewing my life, my Control of my life and my circumstances differently and following my heart.

Victoria Volk
(01:13:01 – 01:13:41)
All of that responsibility that you have felt and put on your shoulders and words was on your shoulders in caregiving for others and everything that you had on your plate to do. Turning that sense of responsibility on its head and putting it towards your life and taking responsibility then for your life, that’s really the best use of the strength, responsibility. Because it is a strength. I’m a Youmap certified Youmap coach, which your son may be interested in that. I had my son take the Youmap assessment when he went to college.

Victoria Volk
(01:13:41 – 01:13:51)
He’s going into nursing. My daughters took it. I took it. It was life-affirming for me. I can I’ll put that in the show notes.

Victoria Volk
(01:13:51 – 01:13:51)
But okay.

Debbie R. Weiss
(01:13:51 – 01:13:52)
That would be great.

Victoria Volk
(01:13:52 – 01:14:20)
Youmap is amazing tool to help you discern and determine what is the best fit for you. And it’s about career and life satisfaction. But I think the message in this podcast is support, self-care, taking responsibility, and really what that message on your from the Wizard of Oz is recognizing the power that we all have within us.

Debbie R. Weiss
(01:14:21 – 01:14:31)
Exactly. Exactly. And that’s what changed my life, realizing, no. It’s not up to everybody else. It’s not predetermined.

Debbie R. Weiss
(01:14:32 – 01:14:46)
It’s up to how I respond to these things, how I choose to respond. And that’s what’s made the difference. And any it can make the difference for anyone regardless of what’s going on in your life. There’s always something you can do to take control.

Victoria Volk
(01:14:48 – 01:14:52)
How do you intend to spend December 30th this year?

Debbie R. Weiss
(01:14:52 – 01:15:01)
Gosh. That’s a great question.  I don’t know. Through the whole year, as we all know, those firsts. Right.

Debbie R. Weiss
(01:15:01 – 01:15:18)
My 1st anniversary, Valentine’s Day. It was just his birthday, the end of October. Thanksgiving was his favorite holiday. They’re rough. My youngest son’s birthday is December 31st.

Debbie R. Weiss
(01:15:21 – 01:15:42)
Mhmm. So it just makes it so hard because I hate that he will think that they’ll forever be tied together. And, he’ll be 21. So, you know, I my older son, I’m not really a cemetery person.

Debbie R. Weiss
(01:15:42 – 01:16:02)
I have not been back there. We wanted to go on his birthday, but for whatever or my son wanted to go on his birthday, but, there was that was closed or whatever when we wanted to go. If that’s what my son wants, then that’s what I’ll do. I’m not sure. I think right now, I’m not sure.

Debbie R. Weiss
(01:16:02 – 01:16:29)
Taking it kinda one day at a time. But I do find that, even now, thinking as I’m talking, you know, last year at this time, I know what was happening. He was in the hospital, like, reliving that hell that he and I went through differently. I wanna get away from that feeling. Because that was the toughest time for me.

Debbie R. Weiss
(01:16:30 – 01:16:37)
So, I think I’m trying to take one day at a time. How’s that? That’s the answer. One day at a time. So you can’t?

Debbie R. Weiss
(01:16:37 – 01:16:56)
I don’t have I don’t have it.  I don’t know. I don’t know. And I’ve find that I do this a lot. I have a lot of anticipation about these days, and I’ve spent so much time beforehand leading up to it that I don’t wanna say it’s anticlimactic, but it’s almost like I’m okay by that day.

Debbie R. Weiss
(01:16:56 – 01:17:12)
I’ve kind of, like, been so worried about it beforehand that I’ve worked through it by the time I get there. And in a way, I want that because I want that for my son. Well you know, for my son who’s turning 21. Right.

Victoria Volk
(01:17:12 – 01:17:31)
And and by sitting with it Mhmm. And having that time to sit with it before, you can be a better you can help him sit in his grief maybe a little bit easier for you yeah. Maybe. I  don’t know. I mean, it’s hard to see your kids hurting to worst part.

Debbie R. Weiss
(01:17:31 – 01:17:35)
Right. Yeah. Yeah. That’s that’s the hard part.

Victoria Volk
(01:17:35 – 01:17:36)
To him.

Debbie R. Weiss
(01:17:36 – 01:17:52)
Thank you. Yeah. Yeah. My little guy, the one who’s gonna be 21, he’s it’s he’s a different person, obviously. And, he’s he was more removed because he wasn’t, he was here, obviously.

Debbie R. Weiss
(01:17:52 – 01:18:21)
He’s not there in school all the time, but he was more removed from the day to day, especially between, when it really got intense from, whenever he leaves the end of August until he came home on December 16th and only 2 weeks before. So he wasn’t it wasn’t his reality. And it and then it’s not his reality when he went back to school. Right? He’s of course, it doesn’t matter where you are.

Debbie R. Weiss
(01:18:21 – 01:18:47)
But when you’re not living In that space and that place, and, he’s got his separate life that he doesn’t equate with the rest of us. I think that gave him separation. Who knows down the road when and how it’ll come back, like what I said earlier. And we all know People process at different times. He really has not had, too much visible grieving.

Victoria Volk
(01:18:48 – 01:19:30)
There was something you said earlier about shaking the tree and how just being kind of on the other side of this now and still working through it, right, because we all are always a work in progress, but there was so many parallels that I drew from what you were sharing into how I feel about grief and how I just you know, the megaphone and I that’s why my art my art for my podcast is me on an island with a megaphone because you feel like you’re alone. You feel like you don’t have a choice. You wanna scream from the rooftops. And for me, it’s like it has two meanings because I also wanna scream the message that it there is light at the end of the tunnel. There is.

Victoria Volk
(01:19:30 – 01:19:39)
Is there a tunnel? I mean, how long is it? I mean, that’s up to you, really. I mean, you do have some power in that. You know, there is no time line.

Victoria Volk
(01:19:39 – 01:19:56)
You’re you’re always gonna have I think it was grief. It’s like people just think, like, I’m never gonna be sad. You’re like that you have to get over it. And getting over it means that you’re not gonna be sad anymore. And the thing even with grief and the work that I do with clients, it’s I never promise you’re never gonna feel sad again.

Victoria Volk
(01:19:57 – 01:20:16)
I tell you, you will feel sad because those anniversaries come around. Right? You’re still gonna feel something. And you will because that relationship continues. The relationship with your husband is still going to continue, just in a different capacity in how it lives within you.

Victoria Volk
(01:20:17 – 01:20:44)
And that’s the thing that we have a choice over is do I want this thing to, like, pull me down, take me out of my life experience. Have me checking out of my own existence, or can I allow it to move through me and with me to help me expand and recognize my power and see my own potential?

Debbie R. Weiss
(01:20:46 – 01:21:00)
Exactly. Exactly. I mean, I couldn’t I couldn’t agree more. And I do feel like, I do, you know, something happens. Been some looking up in the ceiling or,  talking to him all the time.

Debbie R. Weiss
(01:21:00 – 01:21:38)
What you know, I I feel his presence. I feel comfort knowing that he’s at peace, at least, you know, out of his physical body, whatever you believe, but at least I know he’s no longer suffering in that way. And, I can wish every day for the rest of my life that it didn’t turn out this way, but that’s not gonna help me? Right? I mean, it doesn’t work this way.

Debbie R. Weiss
(01:21:38 – 01:22:06)
Life takes twists and turns that none of us would choose. But it’s how we respond to those twists and turns and to sit here and feel sorry for myself and hope and wish and why and question. You know? Yeah. Of course, we all have those moments, but they should be far and few between, especially as we get a little further away from the experience.

Victoria Volk
(01:22:07 – 01:22:10)
Is there anything else that you would like to share?

Debbie R. Weiss
(01:22:10 – 01:22:38)
I think I said everything I have in my head. You got it all out of me and then some that I wasn’t expecting. So, I really do feel like I hope that you and I both got our same similar messages across that if you’re a person out there thinking because I was thinking, oh, sure. They’re saying that, but they don’t know my circumstance. Right?

Debbie R. Weiss
(01:22:38 – 01:22:53)
I could say, oh, but yeah. But I’m dealing with this and this and this. Mm-mm. I won’t have it, and you shouldn’t have it either. There are certainly times where life gets more intense.

Debbie R. Weiss
(01:22:53 – 01:23:01)
Right? Those 6 months that my husband was dying, it was super intense for sure. But you know what? I wrote my book.

Victoria Volk
(01:23:02 – 01:23:40)
And the key thing here and I wanna just circle back to what you said about the caregiving groups and how it was too much for you to hear, their current struggles and things. And it really does parallel grief support groups too because they can be the most supportive places, but they can also hinder your progress because It really is a repetition of the story. Right? It’s this it that’s what happens at these. You can create great bonds and friendships, but at the same time, is it moving you forward?

Victoria Volk
(01:23:40 – 01:23:51)
You’re not taking action. It’s the action that you take that makes the difference. And that’s what I heard you say when you were speaking about that too, and same with grief same with grief.

Debbie R. Weiss
(01:23:52 – 01:24:22)
Absolutely. I’m such a big fan of support groups because I do find them helpful when you are in a room with people who understand. I did not choose to do a grief support group because I felt like I didn’t need it. Whereas, I’ve been in many other types of support groups and more recently with family members of those who suffer with mental illness. And, there’s times when I need it and times when I don’t and times when I’m on there thinking, okay.

Debbie R. Weiss
(01:24:22 – 01:24:44)
This is not healthy for me. So, it it really just does depend upon where you are, the mix of people, the facilitator, but you just have to know what’s good for you pay attention to what’s working and not working for you. And listen to the whispers. Action is yeah. Listen to the whispers, and action is so the key.

Debbie R. Weiss
(01:24:44 – 01:25:02)
When other people we’re reflecting on my experience, and they said to me, well, you took action. And I don’t think I recognize that since so many of us think about all these things. Right? And, actually, I don’t even remember what it was. It might have been about the book.

Debbie R. Weiss
(01:25:02 – 01:25:19)
And a woman I ran into, she said, gosh. You know? You did it. She said, for 3 years, I had this idea, whatever it was. And she said, I just found, writings about it or whatever it was, 3 3 years later collecting dust.

Debbie R. Weiss
(01:25:21 – 01:25:35)
And, 3 years is gonna pass. A year is gonna pass. 2 months is gonna pass. Do you wanna have that collecting dust? Whatever that is, whatever progress you’re looking to make, time is going to move.

Debbie R. Weiss
(01:25:36 – 01:25:38)
Make make the best use of it.

Victoria Volk
(01:25:38 – 01:25:40)
It waits for no one.

Debbie R. Weiss
(01:25:40 – 01:25:41)
That’s it.

Victoria Volk
(01:25:41 – 01:25:44)
Where can people find you if they would love to connect with you?

Debbie R. Weiss
(01:25:45 – 01:25:52)
Find out the yes. Is the best place. Thank you. It’s Debbier. The r is very important.

Debbie R. Weiss
(01:25:52 – 01:26:13)
Otherwise, you wind up in a realtor. Debbierweiss.com. And all my information is there. I am starting a group coaching program will launch soon after this podcast airs, so it’s starting on January 9th. So if you’re interested, go check it out.

Debbie R. Weiss
(01:26:13 – 01:26:33)
I’ve got some other offerings on there, and I also have a bunch of free different downloads, help you find your Inner power, find time for self-care, and then, some morning what I call morning sprinkles of goodness, which is some journal prompts and whatnot. So and all my social media and all the things are all there.

Victoria Volk
(01:26:34 – 01:26:38)
Is the January 9th, is that, group is that for caregivers?

Debbie R. Weiss
(01:26:39 – 01:26:46)
Nope.  It’s for any woman who is ready to make a change in their life and rewrite their story.

Victoria Volk
(01:26:47 – 01:26:56)
Yes. I’m all about that. Thank you so much. This has been a wonderful conversation. Thank you so much for everything that you’ve shared.

Victoria Volk
(01:26:56 – 01:27:20)
And even if it was the 1st time you’ve shared it, it is my honor to have been a witness and to hear it. So thank you so much for sharing it with my listeners. My thoughts are with you and your family as you go through the holiday coming up and your son in the anniversary. And, it’s that’s where you have to rely on, take your own advice. Right?

Victoria Volk
(01:27:20 – 01:27:25)
Self-care Yes. Do what you need to do for you. So thank you so much for being here.

Debbie R. Weiss
(01:27:25 – 01:27:28)
Thank you for having me. This has been cathartic.

Victoria Volk
(01:27:28 – 01:27:35)
Oh, I’m so glad., Thank you so much. And remember, when you unleash your heart, you unleash your life.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Ep 170 Karla Helbert | My Son, Theo, Is Always With Me

Karla Helbert | My Son, Theo, Is Always With Me

 

SHOW NOTES SUMMARY: 

Society will often say to bereaved parents (or guardians), “I cannot imagine your loss…” when expressing their sympathy. However, these words can feel like a thousand paper cuts to the bereaved because, if they’re anything like my guest, Karla, they want you to imagine, even briefly. As Karla shares in this week’s episode, we are all capable of using our imagination; however, when it comes to child loss, no one wants to imagine it. Karla herself never imagined she would experience such a loss in her life. And today, her beloved Theo would be 18 and off to college.

Theo means “God,” and Karla never imagined how much her spiritual life would suffer when Theo was diagnosed at three months old with a brain tumor and died six months later. She needed God and her spiritual practice more than ever during that time, and yet all of the tools and teachings in her toolbox through her therapy practice, yoga, aromatherapy, and more were of no interest to her; she wanted nothing to do with any of it. That is until she was ready to face the one unimaginable loss she could not change.

Through this episode and Karla’s story, you’ll learn two important lessons her grief taught her, as well as her insights around balancing the fear of the world and something bad happening with living, and in particular, the challenges parents with other living children face after already burying one child.

We also talk about how her practice evolved with her grief and how it’s also enabled her to sit with other grievers, including other bereaved parents and guardians, in their pain.

When unimaginable loss happens, every aspect of our lives takes a hit. But when our spiritual life is bruised, finding meaning, which Karla explains is very personal, can be the fuel needed to get up in the morning and keep moving.

Karla lives her life with one thought: to live a life that would make Theo proud.

May we all strive to live our lives to honor our departed loved ones – in even the smallest of ways. 💛

_______

NEED HELP?

  • National Suicide Prevention Lifeline: 1-800-273-8255
  • Crisis Text Line provides free, 24/7 support via text message. Text HOME to 741741 to connect with a trained Crisis Counselor

If you are struggling with grief due to any of the 40+ losses, free resources are available HERE.

CONNECT WITH VICTORIA: 

Victoria Volk: Thank you for tuning in to another episode of Grieving Voices. Today, my guest is Karla Helbert. She is a licensed professional counselor, internationally certified yoga therapist, compassionate bereavement care provider, certified yoga instructor, certified hypnotherapist, reiki practitioner, and an award-winning author. Her life changed when her firstborn child died of a brain tumor in two thousand six. Carlos Therapy Practice has a focus on loss, grief, and bereavement, working in particular with those affected by trauma and traumatic death. She is also the author of Yoga for Grief and Loss, The Shakras and Grief and Trauma, and Finding Your Own Way to Grieve a creative activity workbook for kids and teens on the autism spectrum. It’s a mouthful

Karla Helbert: Fill up.

Victoria Volk: And that’s amazing because I often see that even for myself personally, grief can either crack us wide open and, like, have us go down all these different paths that we never imagined, or it can really take us down in our lives and devastate every aspect of our lives. And we never meet our potential. We never see our potential, and we don’t take chances on ourselves and go after these things that are not only healing for us in the process, but also bring healing to other people, and that’s exactly what you’ve done through your grief and experience. And so I do have questions. But, often, like, even for myself with certifications and things, like, what came first? And I know that you were a therapist for many years before your son passed, but can you describe how things shifted for you with that experience? And share about your son too, please. Yeah, sure.

Karla Helbert: Yeah, sure. And when you were talking about, well, we can either be devastated or we can have this potential, there’s like this huge spectrum and you can be any place on the spectrum at all sorts of times because it’s certainly I mean, when your child dies. And there’s lots of other catastrophic losses. But anytime you have trauma and grief intersecting, it can be really devastating. So there was a lot of devastation. And I will say, I think that I was really fortunate just to being me. And I felt like I cannot turn away from this, like I had to be in it, I had to feel it, and I had to do something with that energy. And I think that’s a a big part of it when I work with other people or when you see situations where people are not growing in their grief or developing because it is really a developmental process and when you’re not being nurtured and supported and having that really fertile ground where to put your roots down so that you can then grow people often don’t. And it’s not always their fault. I hear like, oh, the choice. There are choices to be made sure. But also when you’re in a situation where you don’t have the personal strength maybe to stand up and say no, I’m not gonna accept this notion that I’m supposed to be somewhere other than I am or that I have to subscribe to the five stages, which we don’t really have to get into that, but it’s so permeated in our culture that we’re supposed to somehow lend the early follow these stages, and they’re not linear at all, and I know you know that, and get to the place of acceptance. And that means so many different things to people and also people don’t know. I didn’t know.

Karla Helbert: I took a whole semester long. I think that just makes me laugh. Elective course in counseling and death and dying and grief and bereavement in grad school. And when it happened to me, I still was sitting there going am I going through the stages like I’m supposed to? Am I fitting in like I’m am I grieving like I’m supposed to? And I just had this moment of like, what why they’re supposed to and that notion of acceptance at the end of the line makes some people just feel it’s insulting and like you’re supposed to there’s no such thing that closure. There’s no place where you’re done with this. And if you can’t understand that and integrate it and then stand in that truth for yourself and what it means, you often feel to squash down and if you are not behaving and responding, like, our culture says you should in grief, which is ridiculous, the expectations that are placed on grieving people, then you tend to just sort of keep it to yourself and then you have these emotions like shame, and that increases your sense of isolation and you don’t share and you don’t grow. And if you don’t have access to support and help and the nurturing and the love and all those things that go along with appropriate and healthy development then you might not reach those places. Like, there’s no, we hear a lot too right now in our in our world about post-traumatic growth it’s not a promise. And it’s also not a contest. And I know I’ve done a lot of stuff. But it wasn’t immediate. I mean, it took me a long time to sort of unfold that process.

Karla Helbert: I was a therapist. And primarily, I mean, I was working in a private school with kids and teenagers, with autism, and other developmental disabilities, which were co-occurring with lists of mental health diagnoses, but severe behavioral challenges. And I did that for a long time. And then my son died in two thousand six of a brain tumor, and he was a baby. And that was just a whole the whole thing from the moment of the diagnosis through his illness and the surgeries and the treatments and his death, it was just horrific. And then he died. And I thought because I had a lot of time. Well, we had five months between the time we decided to withdraw treatment, and he went home, and we had amazing support from pediatric hospice. But I thought oh, I’m gonna handle this better because I’ve had all this time to get used to it. And I’m grateful for the time I had. I mean, I certainly know many people people who do not have time. And it’s just this sudden thing that happens when you’re in immediate shock and it’s very difficult to even process. I had the opportunity to plan what I wanted for his funeral. I was able to be with him. I was able to had a lot of processing through those times. But when he died, like, I had no idea what it was gonna be like. I was plunged into this, like, depth of despair and everything I thought was true about the universe and my belief system was just like and I did not know what to do or how to put it back together. And I started taking because I maintain my license and we need to have CEUs. I decided, well, I’m gonna try to learn about grief. I’m gonna try to learn how to figure this out for myself. It wasn’t because I wasn’t gonna be a great therapist. And for me, support groups were incredibly helpful. I’m still I’m involved with the MISS Foundation, which we’re a nonprofit organization that supports families after the death of a child. And I was fortunate enough to have had a group already here. A lot of people think that I started the chapter in Richmond, but I did not where I live. And I went to the group. Every time they were meeting. And when the facilitator at the time found out I was a therapist, she wanted me to help her run the group and at first, I really didn’t want to because I was like, if I do that, I’ll have I won’t have space. But, like, two years in, I thought I can do it. I’ve gotten so much help. I know I can do this, and so I did. And then from there, I started doing some groups with local hospices and those people were asking me, do you have a private therapy practice that we can meet with you? And I did not. I was still working in private schools. But when my daughter who was born two years after my son died, which is about when I started facilitating those groups, went to preschool, I had time. So that was like four years in that I actually started a part-time therapy practice. And started writings and things as well. I mean, I’ve always written things, but for other people to read. Although I did keep a blog throughout his illness and wrote a memoir which has never been published and I don’t know that it will. I don’t feel like I need to at this point. But I hear a lot of people feeling when they come to me that they’re not doing enough, that they need to do something big. And really, like that whole idea of the tree and your roots, a lot of people when they go through something like this immediately want to just jump into this huge project, which is okay because you have a lot of energy to put into things, but it’s also not giving you a chance to establish your own roots and see, like, what you need. And so some people can’t, like, they can do both at the same time. But a lot of times, it’s just overwhelming. And for me, like, I did it just sort of unfolded. It was not a plan. It wasn’t a thing that I said I was gonna do and that’s just how my journey has been. Although, I will say, the yoga piece of everything I do, I started my yoga teacher training before I was ever pregnant with him. And those skills really helped me through a lot of that journey. Although when he died, they felt useless.

Karla Helbert: So I had to sort of integrate that and figure out, like, well, when I wrote the Yoga for Grieving Lockbook, it really came from me spending a lot of time and looking back and seeing how all the skills that I had learned really were supporting me through all of that, and I just didn’t realize it. Like, yoga is a lot of people think that it’s depositors, and it’s so much more than that. Which is what the book is really about is the takes the branches of yoga each chapter is about a different branch of yoga and talked about how the tools within each of those branches are really incredibly helpful in grief. And the yoga postures are like this much of it. They’re only part of two of the different brands of the yoga. And the rest of it or it’s philosophy, its spiritual practice, it’s meditation, it’s self-inquiry and awareness, it’s a lot of different things that I realized later, really were carrying me through. So I’m not sure I answered your question. But it for me, that whole journey of becoming and I’m still doing it, still unfolding was a slow thing. It was not a planned thing. It’s just kind of how I ended up getting to know my own grief better. And for me, the motivation because that’s when we talk about finding meaning or creating meaning, that’s such a personal thing. And if something you have to explore on your own for me, the overall motivation is you have to help people, but I was already doing that. It’s really to me creating a life and living a life that my son would be proud of. And sort of doing things in his honor even though I don’t even really, like, talk about it so much, but it is the motivation behind what I’m doing.

Victoria Volk: What is his name?

Karla Helbert: His name. Everybody mostly knows if it’s Theo, but his name is Felinious Luther Helbert.

Victoria Volk: That’s beautiful.

Karla Helbert: It’s a big mouthful. But that Thelonious Monk, my husband is a huge fan of Thelonious Monk and the whole time I was pregnant, I really thought, well, not the whole time. Until I got the twenty-week ultrasound, I really was sure that he was a girl. And so I had only thought of girl names, and I was like, when I found out he was a boy, first of all, weird. I don’t even have a penis inside you, like, twenty-four hours. Sounds like Oh My God, I really have to adjust my thinking around it weird. And I didn’t know what to call him and we were looking at an album cover and I thought that’s a cool thing. Well then, what about Thelonious? And my husband was thrilled with that. And my dad’s name is Luther, and his father’s name is Luther. So that was his middle name. Mhmm.

Victoria Volk: Oh, it’s beautiful. Right.

Karla Helbert: Everybody mostly called him Theo

Victoria Volk: And you had shared that he would be eighteen now.

Karla Helbert: He would be eighteen now.

Victoria Volk: When was his for when will his eighteenth birthday be or when was it?

Karla Helbert: Well, it passed till this coming year, his birthday is on May Twenty-sixth Twenty Twenty-Four, it will be nineteen years. And he died nine months old. He wasn’t a year old. He didn’t live to see his first birthday. So the death date when we get there in February will be eighteen years that he’s been dead, but then nineteen years of his birthday following way though.

Victoria Volk: And when I hear something cocky?

Karla Helbert: Crazy for me to think about that sometimes, they’ll just tell me.

Victoria Volk: So my son, his name is Xavier John, and his due date was May twenty-six two thousand five, but he was born May twenty-fourth.

Karla Helbert: Oh, wow.

Victoria Volk: So we were pregnant at the exact same time.

Karla Helbert: Oh my goodness.

Victoria Volk: And gave birth around the exact same time.

Karla Helbert: Wow. That’s amazing.

Victoria Volk: Yeah. That’s never happened before in an interview. So

Karla Helbert: Wow.

Victoria Volk: I know it. So

Karla Helbert: Thank you so much for sharing that with me.

Victoria Volk: And thank you for sharing you didn’t mention it, but the Reiki, how has that served you in learning? Because I know how beneficial that has been for me just to learn about energy at self in the energy of emotions? Can you yeah

Karla Helbert: Oh, yes for sure. And emotions are energy. Mhmm. Absolutely. Well, you know, everything is energy. But it’s interesting because I’m trying to think of when it was one time and then, like, late nineties. A group of my friends all went to go get Reiki trained. And it’s totally a thing that I would be down with. I mean, I am, but they asked me to go and I didn’t do it. I just I don’t know. I really can’t remember why I said no. Because it sounds like a thing I would be like, oh, yeah. Let’s I wanna do that with y’all, but I didn’t. And I was the only one out of this group of friends that I hung out with a lot that didn’t do the Reiki training at the time. And they were all coming and breaking me afterwards. And I was like, oh, cool. And I just, like, let it go. And I really think it’s because I was gonna need it a lot more later.

Karla Helbert: But so in twenty thirteen, I guess, I went another thing that I’ve been really interested in for many years is essential oil and aromatherapy. I’m not a certified aromatherapist I’ve been working with them for a long since nineteen ninety. And a friend of mine said, oh, there’s this weekend workshop about a Aroma therapist, but aroma therapy for therapists do you want to go? And I thought, well, okay. And so for me, a lot of things after he died, just I’ve always been a very spiritual person. I always call myself spiritually promiscuous. Like

Victoria Volk: I love that.

Karla Helbert: Sort of, like, avenues and studying different religions and paths and stupid interested in so many ways. Like, I really believe that the yoga that I’m trained in, which is integral yoga, our motto is truth is one and path are many, and I absolutely believe that. So I’ve learned a lot about a lot of different things over many years. But when he died, it was like none of that meant anything. It was just that loss of my spiritual self. It’s still makes me cry. I was just like, who am I now? And the only thing that really helped me then was I and I’m again fortunate in this because I’ve worked with lots of people who say that they cannot. They hear all these things about signs and connection and communications and they don’t have it and they can’t feel their children or their other loved ones and but I knew he was around. I knew he was there. I couldn’t believe in anything else. It was all gone, but I could believe in that. And I could talk to him until the o means god, sort of male, like, okay. Well, if he’s around and I feel that, then somewhere, there must still be this divine presence. I just don’t know where it is. It was truly this dark night of the soul space. A feeling disconnected totally separate from that source. It was awful. I stopped doing yoga, the awesomeness. I did chant. That was one of the things that got me through chanting, and just being taking a lot of bath, a lot. But so many things that were who I was just were gone. And I had hundreds of dollars in essential oils. Just hundreds and hundreds just sitting on a shelf doing nothing with them. Because for me, that was also part of my virtual practice, like using them in a spiritual way and in ritual and add mixing them together and potions really, but, like, ways that for me, like, really carried the energies of the plant. And I just didn’t want anything to do with it. I would put lavender on a cotton ball vacuum. That was about it. But I said, well, okay, I’ll go to this thing with you. And it was like a turning point for me. It was really really what I needed in that moment. And the two women who were putting it together the wrong therapist was named Katiebugs. And I love her and she and I became really close over the years and she’s become like a mentor and the other woman, Barbara Davis, is a licensed therapist and also a Reiki Master. And that’s the first time I met her and she became a really important person for me and I thought, okay, it was funny because at that weekend workshop, mostly everybody there were, like, bodyworkers and acupuncturists and massage therapists me and one other person were psychotherapists, and it was like, I don’t even have them in the right place, but we had to learn some certain acupressure points and work with the oils and work with people. And one person I was working with that, are you a reiki person and I was like, no. And she said, are you sure? And I was like, well, I’m pretty sure. She said, but I can feel the energy in your hand. And then I said, oh, okay. And then I looked into it more after that and went to train with Barb Davis. And it really helped me regain a spiritual connection and a spiritual practice. And I think had I done it all those years ago with my friends that wouldn’t have happened. And I think something in me or something in the universe just new, the right time for this is gonna be later. And so that was in twenty fourteen. I did my reiki training level one, level two, and worked with it on myself a lot. And on some clients, but I didn’t really, like, get into really using reiki with a lot of other people until the pandemic. And to my reiki master level in twenty twenty or maybe twenty twenty one. It might have been, like, right at the change of the year. And started working with it differently in a way different way. I mean, for people who are who under who know about Ricky, I would use punchalization in and send it decently, like, just a prayer list? Like, I’m sending this to you. I’m sending but I didn’t start working decently with people really in session until the pandemic when we I was doing the master level and working with it in that way because I really couldn’t wasn’t seeing people in person. And it was a profound experience. And many people that I’ve worked with distantly have said, the feedback from them is even more powerful than what you get in person, which has been an interesting experience for me.

Karla Helbert: And then last year, I started teaching some people. I haven’t done tons of it, but it is incredibly powerful experience every time I do a reiki training and the right people show up. You know, once you are supposed to be there in that moment and the groups are just so cohesive and they stay in touch, and it’s just really interesting. But that part, I think that weekend was really I’m gonna know because I can feel the difference. Really profound. And then from there, the reiki journey started. And I’m really grateful for it because I think it wouldn’t have been the same. Had I done it earlier. I can’t know for sure but

Victoria Volk: Mhmm. Well, and I had similar experience, although I did my reiki master, I think, twenty nineteen. And then I did Corona Holy Fire Rakey Master. And then I phoned biofield tuning, which is his tuning fork, so I got certified in that. And so, yeah, it’s what I’ve heard you saying up to all this point is that it’s like when the student is ready, the teacher appears. Right? And it’s being open to receiving what it is that is there for you to learn about yourself, about healing, about whatever it is that is peeking your curiosity. And where I think people come into our lives too just to nudge us like they’re brought into our lives to nudge us and then we might not ever see them again or speak to them again. I’ve had so many instances of that one off conversations that just, like, change the trajectory of my life sometimes. I’ve published a book because of one off conversation with someone. It’s been bizarre. Yeah. And I think the message that I want people to hear and what you were sharing is that to be open, really, it’s important to be open to support and be open to the nudges and to getting out of your comfort zone. Because I think we can become very comfortable with our suffering too.

Karla Helbert: Oh, yeah. I think you’re right. That’s true. And then it’s scared to what is it that the devil? It’s easier to stay somewhere than to face the fear of something that’s different. And it is scary. And I think I’ll stay often to people in grief. We often feel like we don’t we don’t wanna move. We don’t wanna literally go out. We don’t want to do anything. And I’ll say, go when people ask you to do something, drive your own car so you can leave, but try. And just yesterday, I was talking to a friend of mine and we’re planning a webinar, and we’re talking about just, like, basic tips. And I said, you know, when somebody that you love and trust sent to you. Let’s go take a walk or maybe you should take a shower. Just listen to do it. Just do it. You just never know how one little thing might really shift how you’re feeling in a moment. And sometimes, just taking a shower can really, like, change how you’re feeling or going out and walking around the block and getting some sunlight. I mean, those things are so basic. But so important. And especially really early on when you’re in those spaces of devastation, we often don’t want to do anything. You don’t care to take care of yourself. Like I talk a lot about self-compassion, and self-care. And when you’re in those places, you don’t care to have compassion for yourself or take care of yourself. And so really, you’re right. Like, that just do it anyway. Like, just take this moment and listen when somebody gives you a little bit of a nudge. Because you don’t know how just this one little shift can change the energy of your emotion. Because as we said before, emotions or energy. And I’ve shared many times that word emotion comes from the Latin verb, a move air, which means to move. Emotions are supposed to move. We’re not supposed to just, like, hold them tight and just But I know because when you’re in pain, like physical pain, you just don’t wanna move, but everybody knows if you don’t move that arm that’s hurt, it’s gonna freeze up. You have to take those little steps to allow on an emotional level, also the pain to move. It doesn’t mean you’re gonna be fixed or cured or you’re not gonna grieve do grief stays with us forever? I mean I was just I can if I talk to you about it, it’s right there. It doesn’t go away. I just now am strong enough to carry it that building your emotional muscle and all of those things are energetically motivated, but it includes the physical aspects too of taking a shower, going for the walk, taking the chances and having lunch with a friend. And it’s scary because we don’t know you don’t know from one minute to the next sometimes seconds, what’s gonna just bring you to your knees any moment. A song, a look, a kid that looks like your kid or you never know and they’re everywhere, these dangers. And if you don’t make the effort to become strong enough to handle them when they show up. You never leave that safe safe circle it’s how your world gets smaller and smaller. And I don’t think that’s a good way to live. Mean, I can’t I’ve had conversations where people say, well, who are you to say? I’m I can it’s my business if I wanna keep my world that small. You’re right? You know, that’s true. You can’t ever make anybody do anything. But I don’t want to live in a little tiny box. Know, so in order to be able to expand, you have to, as you say, be keep being curious. You’re curious about something. Go find out. Like, curiosity is a very healthy place to be always.

Victoria Volk: And that’s the hardest thing I think when being, like, on the therapeutic side of it or renew assisting others in grief And for a long time, I just felt this like, I just wanted to, like, help everybody. Right? And you can only help those that really are ready to help themselves who are ready to be open, right, to the support. And that was the hardest part for me when I first started this my work of working with grievers too is being on the other side of it. Right? Like, you just you just wanna bring everybody with you. Like, there is hope. There is support. There is a path forward. There is joy and happiness waiting for you.

Karla Helbert: It’s hard believe sometimes, I mean, I remember vividly being in the space of thinking, okay, well, I’m never gonna feel joy again. I guess that’s alright. I mean, I’ve had little kind of burst of oh, I feel happy for a minute. That’s okay. I mean, I had accepted that was weird when that first happened, but I’m never gonna feel joy again. I mean, who knew? You can. It’s not and so, you know, the for me, the most profound thing was really real. And it was did not happen overnight. Is being able to hold grief alongside other emotions. And it’s hard to do because grief, especially traumatic grievance and the trauma aspect of it really has to be worked on, like, how do you deal with post-traumatic stress issues when they come up. Like, that’s a different thing, learning how to calm your nervous system down and understand how it works. But the grief itself does not need to be healed. It’s a normal and a natural response. And in the beginning, It is so overwhelming that it’s impossible for other things to come in and feel. But the more you learn how to carry it, the more than you’re able to have that space for other things, it doesn’t mean that this is gonna go away. It doesn’t. And then that not being afraid of learning that grief isn’t your enemy, that was huge for me too. But and I remember talking to a really good friend of mine. I was on one of the death anniversaries, and I was saying to her, I hate this so much. I hate this grief. I hate it. And she’s like, you don’t hate it. And I was like, yes, I do. No, you don’t hate it. And I was like, oh, I totally do. And she said, no. You hate that he’s dead. You don’t hate the grief. I was like, okay. That is true. That’s true. The grief is just there because he’s dead. Like, there’s Of course, it is. And so, like, that for me was another little turning point of really realizing, okay, I don’t have to try to get rid of it. How can I, like, make friends with it a little bit? It’s a constant companion. You know, it’s always here. Even in that the the metaphor of sort of, like, this thing being huge and you can’t see around it at all and or you’re just blind to buy it. And then eventually, it moves out here and you can see around it or under it and then it’s here and so it’s always right there. Or maybe it’s like right here most of the time and oh, I know you’re there. If I wanna come get you. And then there’s those days where it’s like, oh, look, here I am. It’s never like this for me anymore. And his grief isn’t. And I,really feel that the only thing that scares me and it’s that true for a lot of grandparents as my living child. Then I don’t know what will happen to me if she were to die before I die. I just hope she won’t. But here, I’m all I’m pretty confident that I can handle anything grief-related that comes my way in regards to his death. I can I can handle it even if it’s here? and it doesn’t stay here very long. It’s just like, okay. I know. And then it goes back here. But it’s always part of me. And in the beginning, had you told me that’ll be like, I don’t want this, and I understand that completely that impose to protest and to push this away and to not have this be your reality is absolutely how you feel. And I get it. And so you’re right with the where people and people are ready. And in this job, in my job, I No. There’s nothing I can do to help you. I can’t fix this. Like, I can’t fix the grief. I cannot change how you feel. I can offer you suggestions, I can be there with you, and it doesn’t scare me. And so now in a lot of ways working with dramatically grief people, I don’t I’m not responsible for their healing. I can just be there with you in it, and I’m really good at that now. And I think a lot of people who do this work, including lots of therapists, are not comfortable in that discomfort. It’s also a cultural issue. This is much fun with culture. Like, our culture is not comfortable in the face of other people’s pain. They either, like, don’t wanna be seeing that. Or they want the person that they care about to be who they used to be, which is also impossible, or they wanna fix it for them and take like, when people say, oh, if I could do take this away from you, I would never want somebody to take my grief away from me. It’s inexorably connected to my love for my child and you’re not taking my breath away. It’s impossible anyway. But even early on, I knew that. Like, I had to feel it. But if this it is a developmental process and a journey, like, nobody overnight just as like, okay, I’m ready to be healing now. I mean, just and for me, I don’t even really use that language because I think the idea is that grief can be healed and it doesn’t need to be. And I’m never gonna be healed from that trauma, relationship problems with other people that show up, physical issues. A lot of times, this can be healing, all that depending on what has happened. The immune systems are depleted. People have autoimmune problems because of extreme amount of stress that their bodies are under. And once you start dealing with the emotional peace and find the right physical support, that stuff can be healed, but the grief doesn’t need to be. It’s a learning process too with all of those things growing, learning, developing, but I don’t need to heal from it. So but other I don’t suggest other people use my words, but figuring that out was also huge because for several years, I thought I needed to heal. And I tried and tried and tried and thought about it and wrote about it and finally, when I started thinking about it in a different way, it was a relief to just be like, oh, and god, I don’t have to heal from this because I’m not.

Victoria Volk: I have a lot to reflect on that because it is. It’s like this, it is a constant wound. Right? Like, there’s nothing ever that will bring your son back and Right. Or any loss that anyone experiences or any traumatic experience that someone has, there’s nothing we can’t go back in time. We can’t change it.

Karla Helbert: Right.

Victoria Volk: And so it is this ever present wound. But like in grief recovery, what the language And I use healing but more towards, like, energy work. Mhmm. But when it comes to grief, it’s more of the a sense of recovery. And almost like, you know, like the twelve-step programs of alcohol or substance abuse disorders and things like that. But for me, personally, it was recovering from the pain. Mhmm. It was and that’s what I feel like grief recovery addresses is the pain so that when you have those moments that show up in your life that remind you you’re not pulled back to the pain. Mhmm. Your relationship changes because your relationship continues with your son. Your relationship continues who never passed.

Karla Helbert: Absolutely. Yeah.

Victoria Volk: And so it’s and she’s yes. So grief recovery. What it did for me and what I see it doing for clients is it helps them change the relationship moving forward? Because I think there’s a lot of you know, what’s the loss of hopes, dreams, and expectations and anything that you wish would have been different better or more. And I think that’s the story on repeat in a lot of people’s minds and hearts and that’s really difficult to let go of.

Karla Helbert: Oh, totally. Yeah. And that’s for me and a lot of other bereaved parents. And in a lot of ways for anybody who’s the loved one, but that those ideas of, like, what we what would have been if he would be now. Like, I was not expecting, for example, fact that school stuff has been with hard for a lot of years. But I didn’t even really think about it. All the kids going off college this last summer. And I was like, oh my god. Like, it went it’s interesting. I looked at it. I was like, wow. And a lot of the things I was reading from a lot of mothers being devastated and grieving. And I just thought, oh, gosh. Yeah. I’m not gonna I can’t I couldn’t say anything. I didn’t comment on anything. I didn’t because I just thought, okay. It was it was very hard to read. And I don’t know if he what would he be doing? Will he take a gap year? I don’t know. Would he be going to college at all? What would he be doing? I don’t even I don’t know. All things you don’t know. That’s all still there. But for me, yeah, like, you know, language is so important how we talk about things and what we think about words. I mean, I’m a big word nerd. So I mean, to me, I’m always like, look up the ophthalmology of this thing and see where it comes from. But that’s why healing and the thought around that. But it really is how we because the way you’re talking about grief recovery, like this resonates with me. I don’t like that word because I think in a lot of places, people assume it means you get to go back to who you were before and you don’t. And I know you know that. Mhmm. And so it’s hard to our language is still limited to on how we can really express it’s hard to talk about. I write a lot about grief. I mean, I have written a lot about grief and there’s still no words that really can describe your actual experience in it.

Victoria Volk: Can I read something that you shared with me in your application here?

Karla Helbert: Oh of course.

Victoria Volk: Because I feel like a lot of people listening who have lost a child will resonate with this. So I asked, what would you like to scream to the world? And you had said that others who did not know this pain could fully you wanted them to fully feel the catastrophic immensity of not just my pain, but the totality of living with such traumatic loss and the ongoing experience of what it is truly like to live without the person you love and cherish most. I wish they could experience it so they would know and if only for a few minutes what I was going through, and I imagine that as a feeling that you have kept all these years. Even when you’re reading those messages of the moms when their children were going off to college and things, I imagine, like, it really touched me. That’s why I wanted to bring it up.

Karla Helbert: I can I didn’t remember what I wrote in the so but that’s true? Because, you know, people will say. And this and it is I do concur. I would not wish the death of a child. On anybody. I don’t really have any enemies, but if I did, I wouldn’t wish it on my worst enemy, people say. But I do wish that for just an instant, people could really feel it. Because I don’t think I mean, I know. So I also have this thing that I don’t like it when people say I can’t imagine because human beings have the capacity to imagine anything. Like, we’ve imagined worlds that never existed. Galaxies far, far away and all these things. And it and I think what it means when people say that is they don’t want to imagine it because it’s new scary because if you really really. And I know you can never if you’ve not experienced it, you cannot know what it’s actually like. But people don’t want to try to imagine. And I haven’t had a conversation with my mom not too long ago. Which was really interesting because she’s one of the people who just have historically over this whole period difficult to talk about this with. And she’s gotten so much better over the years. She’s really, like, taken in a lot and I think learned and had I’ve seen her deal with grief with friends and other aspects, and she’s gotten so much better at it. But she asked me something about how do you work with all these people’s pain and what how do you do that all the time every day? And I was trying to explain it and and that this conversation went into the phase of that because that was happening at that time, everybody’s children were going off to college, and I was talking about it. And she said to me, oh, bigger. She said, well, when you went to when you went off to school, I cried every day from month to month, it was awful. You just have no idea and I was like, Okay. Now imagine, I’m an only child. Imagine if you would never speak to me again, never see me, never hold me, never touch me, never hear my voice, never mail me, but I don’t want to hear that. And I was like, okay. This is what I’m talking about. And I didn’t you know, we were we were out at our house. I was making dinner and all. I just went back. And it’s interesting too. I like that I mean, for me that moment, if that had happened fifteen years ago, I would not have been able to even talk to her. I would have had to leave. You know, it was just no, it’s interesting, and I remember miserably in those moments. Early on in grief. Just wishing that people could feel how I felt. Just for a few seconds even because grieving people and I experienced it too are so judged. It’s like I mean, yeah, you’re tired of our grief, oh my god. Imagine having to do it every single second. We’re sick of our shit too. Oh my god. We can’t do anything about it. And then for that gets back to that, what you said earlier, it’s a choice to do something. It’s so hard. So I have so much sympathy and sympathy for people who are in those places, and I work with people who it’s protracted. And it’s just, okay. You just keep doing these things, and then there might be a little shift, a little shift. And I had a woman once. It totally sticks out to me. Our son took his own life. She came in, she walked on my sofa, she’s just crying crying crying. And for, like, twenty minutes, all we did, she sat there and told me how she can’t do this. And I said, but you’re doing it, but I can’t do it anymore. But you’re doing it. This went on and on and we had a lot of conversations around, okay, what are your options? And to killing herself, completely just like taking every drug and just staying high and she didn’t like any of those options because all of those had bad consequences. And I thought well, Okay. We’re doing it then. And then we shifted the conversation and we’re talking about other things. And when she left, she was laughing about something and we were just it was not we’re having a great little time, and I said, you know, I want just want to point out to you. This isn’t to say that some great healing moment happened but look at how differently you feel right now as opposed to how you felt just like an hour and a half ago. That doesn’t mean you won’t have those moments again, but you’ve got through it. And now we’re in a different place totally. Just remember that. It can change. It can. And people just don’t believe that often when you’re in those places of just total pit darkness, but it can’t.

Victoria Volk: You just highlighted a very important point is that especially in those moments when you’re sitting in it and you’d have don’t see a way out of it. You can’t see the label from inside the jar. This is where you need support, you need someone else to light the way for you, to show you that you can shift your perspective in an instant.

Karla Helbert: It is variable. Don’t have that Yeah. Right. And a lot of people don’t have that. They don’t have that help and support. And it’s it’s hard because a lot of times people who may not be the kind of person who would reach out and go find it are the ones who need it the most. I mean, you see this, people who are help, seeking people just naturally be like, I I need to go to a group or I’m gonna go find a therapist or whatever. And now I’ve said a few times on different podcasts. Now what is so helpful? Even more it’s I mean, it’s been almost twenty years, which seems like a long time, but it all those things really fast. Then, like, there was very little support. Now, you can and social media can be really devastating for many people, and it can be really helpful but there’s so much more. And you need to be discerning because not every place that’s supposedly helpful and supportive really is and there can be a lot of toxicity, but this is where you knowing yourself and learning, having that self awareness and starting to pay attention again to your own wisdom, finding the places where you feel safe and comfortable there’s so many more out there now than there were even when I was going through it. I felt really alone. I mean, it’s really thankful for the miss foundation and the group that was here. And that’s one reason I’ve stayed so connected and and still very much active with with the foundation. Is because it’s what really helps save me. So having that support and there’s so many more options now and that’s really, really good.

Karla Helbert: When I wrote that book yoga for grief and loss, Actually, the the other book defining your own way to grief book that’s for kids on spectrum, that came from a story that I wrote one of my clients is for my son, any of this happened with him. This kid was a new kid to me. Both of his grandfathers had died. And one of those grandfathers was, like, his person. And there was nothing anywhere. I could find no resources. So I wrote him this little story that’s at the beginning of that book, but then turned into chapters because I couldn’t find anything out. And now, there’s more support for people on the spectrum. There’s more support for grief parents. So I remember finding there was one book that I found that was for marine parents at the time. And then there were a couple more, but there really weren’t that many resources even for bereaved parents. There was nothing for siblings. So, and all of this has grown a lot over the last fifteen years. And there’s so much more out there. It’s easier to find support than it was, but you have people that it’s hard for them to reach out. Which is why I say also to other people don’t stop reaching out to the greeting person. They may not come to lunch, keep asking them. And a lot of times, what happens is this victim blaming kinda thing, oh, well, she doesn’t wanna come to let her sit there. It’s part of it is because they don’t understand how grief is not a disability or a disorder, but it can be debilitating. Had trauma with it, you have all of that combined. It can be terrifying to walk out of your house. And they need support. You need people who the people who love you who are gonna keep coming back instead of getting annoyed with you because you’re not getting over this. Are you still sad about this? It’s been six months or less? I mean, it’s just like amazing. So for me, if people could’ve veld it, just for an infant, maybe they would have more other lips.

Victoria Volk: And zip their lips. Right?

Karla Helbert: It’s like impossible. I get that it’s impossible.

Victoria Volk: It’s like I equate it to society’s response to grief to grievers, like a thousand paper cuts. It’s like every little comment, every little inciliation, every judgment, or every whatever it is. It’s like just another little paper cut on a griever. And the thing is what this is why I started this podcast is like nobody has to die for you to be a griever, for you to grieve. Like, I guarantee you these people that say this stuff, this un these unhelpful things, have a lost dream, or have a less than loving relationship with a parent. I mean, we grieve, have a loss of career or finances. Maybe the less they’re home, everything went up in flames. Like, we all grieve something as we just forget. We forget.

Karla Helbert: Yeah, well, maybe that forgetting. I don’t know. Because when you’ve had these huge losses, catastrophic losses, you can’t forget. And I don’t know. I mean, maybe when people have those other those other kinds of grief and those other losses and they forget, they sort of think, well, I got over these things. I mean, and people equate these things together, they do. I mean, I’ve seen it. Like, it’s amazing. Oh, I know exactly how you feel.

Victoria Volk: Oh, yeah. Mhmm.

Karla Helbert: Because my grandmother died, my dog died, my whatever died. I mean, it’s like

Victoria Volk: My aunts, cousins, brother, sister.

Karla Helbert: Yes. Whatever, you know. I mean, it’s just like,

Victoria Volk: trying to relate and trying to relate you’re creating more harm. And Yeah. You talked a lot about support and making sure that grievers seek support and you talked about ways that you found support and what you looked for and what helped you. But overall, what has your grief taught you?

Karla Helbert: I don’t think you asked me this ahead of time.

Victoria Volk: It was on the form and you selected it.

Karla Helbert: Oh, well. Okay. Okay. Well, today, I think well, the thing that came to my mind very the first thing is that I’m not special. Like, I so in the beginning when this first happened, one of the things, right, that was, like, universe shattering and this idea somehow that I was protected and special. Even if I didn’t really say that to myself and I think like a lot of people walk around with this assumption that they’re exempt. They know bad things can happen, but somewhere they don’t think it’s gonna happen to them. And I was just, like, with the why, why, why, why, why. And then I just had this, like, thought, but this was really early in. Oh, why not? I mean, like, why not? Why not me? What’s I’m no different than anybody else. I mean, I’m just I’m special. I’m just special and I’m just as not special as anybody else. And I think it also had taught me And that was really eye-opening. I was like, okay, what does that mean now? What do I how do you navigate the world. And it’s scary. How do you navigate the world when you know for sure these terrible things can happen? And I’ve had to learn how to balance that fear? Because it’s still there. I mean, I know all the things can happen. So it’s how do we balance that fear and then at the same time knowing that. And maybe it’s the curiosity piece because I’m I’ve always been, like, very curious and open to lots of things. It’s like, well, if I know that, then how do you make the most of this one this moment that’s happening now. Right now, as far as I can tell and everything I can do, everybody that I love is safe. Everybody is okay. Now what do we do? We live in this moment. We live in this present moment as much as we can. We plan for what we can plan for. But you can’t control everything. And that’s been really hard. Like, I’ve tried my best and I’ve really have tried my best. Some people say that and I don’t always try my best at everything. Try my best. To try to be the kind of parent. That I think I would be if I didn’t have a dad child, but learning how to, like, let her go into the world she’s gonna be fifteen on her next birthday. Oh my god. She’s gonna drive a car. Like, how it’s ongoing. How do you balance this stuff? It’s taught me how to be able to live a more balanced life to let go of what I don’t control or hang to how to really surrender to things how to learn how to surrender to that grief because it cannot control it. And then how to then take the steps to continue learning and growing. I mean, those are the things I’ve learned from my grief. For sure.

Victoria Volk: I’m glad you touched on that with your daughter, like, you know, that fear of I mean, you’ve lost one child. Right? That fear never goes away. Right?

Karla Helbert: Now when I know many, many families who’ve lost more than one child, it’s it happens a lot. And it’s a real fear and a real possibility. So how do you live? And that’s the thing I address with lots of parents that I work with who have living children. How do you live with this? Without being crazy, without being super controlling, letting them have and have made mistakes, I’m sure not definitely not a perfect parent. I do feel I’ve tried my best to not control her and let her have experiences climbing trees. Oh my god. I used to love to climb trees. Nobody paid any attention to me. Climbing the trees. I was so scared to deliver climb trees, but I let her do it. Thank goodness she was not like a daredevil child. Really glad for that, but it was really hard. But I wanted her to have those experiences. And I’m gonna have to let her drive a car at some point. That’s worse than climbing trees because there’s other people driving cars and on phones and drilling and drag all these things. So it’s just like to terrifying. Is scary for non bereaved parents?

Victoria Volk: It is. Yeah.

Karla Helbert Yeah. It’s a it’s a challenge. It’s a challenge. And it’s ongoing. I mean, their times when it’s harder than other times. So, like, that’s a skill. Right? So, grief has taught me many skills to move through my days.

Victoria Volk: I do have one question kind of on that topic. What would you say to parents I have this belief system too that, like, a parent’s anxiety can become their child’s anxiety. How do you express that to parents in a loving, compassionate way. I know.

Karla Helbert: I mean, in my kid. I do. I mean, I see it in my child. And and there’s so much, like, we knew nature or nurture all these things. Like, she’s her own person. She has a lot of anxiety. That I never had. Really, we’re very different people. You know what I mean?

Victoria Volk: It’s a very different time too.

Karla Helbert: Yes. Yes. There’s so many things. Like, I would never wanna be a teenager right now. It’s just so scary the world that they are living in. And so there’s that, I mean, when they do active shooter drills at school. I mean, she’s terrified, but there was one day that this is a middle school. And she that happened and then she had a nightmare that night that there was a shooter in her school. And she didn’t wanna go to school the next day because she thought that it was gonna come true. And I said, I mean, we had a long talk about it. And I said, because I can’t tell her it’s not gonna happen. I can’t. I know people whose children have been killed in school shootings. I know them. And I can’t tell her it’s not gonna happen. But I told her, I said, I understand that you’re scared. I know. And she knows of the children that I know. I mean, she’s aware. She knows what I do. She knows a lot of things. And I said it, but it’s like lots and lots of accidents happen in cars every day, and it’s scary to drive a car. But what if I say, we’re never gonna get in a car again because we might be in an accident. We would never go to go anywhere. We would have to be only where we could walk, and I send this to her, that would make our world a lot smaller. I know it’s scary. But we have to figure out how to breathe through our fear, do the best we can, protect ourselves, and take care of ourselves. But also live our lives. You’d have to live your life. You’d have to go to school. And it was so hard sitting here in a school. And every time this happens, it’s like, mean, I think of it all the time when she goes to school. But, I don’t know, there’s not even a but. It’s a very, very difficult. She does have a lot of anxiety and some of it is the world. I mean, the pandemic was horrible, living through that as children and teenagers. And what that had done. And we were terrified during the pandemic for her to catch it, like all of these things. And when she was a child, I mean, I know when I was pregnant, I was terrified. There’s only so much you can control and even in terms of, like, what anxieties rub off on her? I’m like, I’ve talked about my husband’s fears. He’s been through the same stuff I’ve been through, and he’s a different person. And the way he deals with trauma is very different. She’s living with two traumatized parents. And grief stricken parents. I mean, I even didn’t even know how I thought I’m gonna bring the child into this house that’s still with grief. Is that the right thing for me to do? And I did. And I think I do think too that she’s a more empathetic person she does not have hang ups about grief at all. It is normal part of her life. I also tried. I didn’t wanna push a relationship with her brother on her. Like, she never knew him. Let her come to her own sort of thoughts and feelings about it. I have a hundred percent sure. Like, none of us, grievers are not can avoid our own stuff coming off on our children. I just think being as self-aware as possible and as open as possible to your own feelings. Like being telling yourself the truth about stuff is number one important thing. Okay, how am I affecting her right now? Can I need to manage myself first before I can manage the whole oxygen put your own oxygen mask on first? But I know that it’s impacted her. It can’t not have impacted her. I don’t know how much of her anxieties or because of me or my husband or whatever stress or whether she absorbed in utero. I don’t know. I can only do what I can do and try to be as aware as I can, as loving as I can. Come back to her when I’ve made mistakes. I’ve done that too. She’s a really good kid and she’s very smart. She’s funny. She’s creative. She’s finding her own way. And I just do my best to do my best. I don’t know.

Karla Helbert: There’s not a lot I can say to people because I get it. I understand. That fear and that learning to balance it is hard. And we don’t always I don’t even know what success looks like in that, but your kids as much space to be themselves. And we’re guiding all the time and once she’s an adult, to get out of the way and let her live her life. I mean, I’ve always thought like our job as parents is for them to not need us later. Hopefully, right, for her to be able to be on her own in a contributing adult in society and be as happy as she can be as content as she can be with who she is. I mean, I hope that I’ve done that. And I think some of that is unavoidable.

Victoria Volk: And to piggyback on that, I think the best way we can do that is, like you said, have a self-awareness about ourselves and sweep our own doorstep and look at our own parts.

Karla Helbert: Yes. Do your own work. I mean, that’s really important. Because if you don’t if you if you’re not aware, then nothing can change. Like, that is the first part, self-awareness. That something needs to change or it never changes.

Victoria Volk: It’s a great way to end this podcast, I think.

Karla Helbert: Thank you so much.

Victoria Volk: Yes. Thank you. And I’m gonna put links to the books to your everything in the show notes, but where can people find you if they’d like to connect with you and work with you?

Karla Helbert: Oh, for sure. My website is the best place, and you can always any any of the contact forms come straight to my email. Also, I’m not sure whether this is gonna air, but we’re a friend of mine, animal rogers who’s also a bereaved parent. Her story is very different from mine. We’re doing a free webinar for marine parents on December fifth. And that is gonna be from five to five thirty seven eastern time. Yeah. And that information is off the on my website. And you can just click there. It’s free, but you do need to register just to get the link and everything. I think that’ll be a really helpful thing for people. My website is just my name. It’s www.karlahelbert.com. It’s Karla Helbert. And all the stuff I do is on there, and any email that you send come straight to me, and I will write back.

Victoria Volk: I will put that information in the show notes. And I

Karla Helbert: Can also find me on Instagram. I’m also on Facebook. I don’t do Twitter so much anymore. X. No. It’s really not there anymore. So Instagram and Facebook are places to find me. And also my website, you can just email me and I would love to hear from people about reiki, about bereavement, about whatever. I mean, there’s a lot of stuff that I do about yoga. So Yeah. Thank you so much for having me. It’s been really, really great talking to you.

Victoria Volk: It’s been my pleasure. Thank you for sharing your story. And remember, when you unleash your heart, you unleash your life much longer.

Ep 169 Part II | Supporting Children Through Divorce and The Holidays

Part II | Supporting Children Through Divorce and The Holidays

 

SHOW NOTES SUMMARY: 

This episode is a follow-up to the last one to bring awareness to Children’s Grief Awareness Day on November 16th, 2023. 

In this episode, I dive into supporting children through divorce and their challenges during the holidays. We must recognize that children experience various forms of grief and that parents play a crucial role in helping them cope with loss. Parents who receive early education on loss are better prepared to support their children effectively.

The impact of divorce on children is explored, highlighting the multiple losses they experience and the difficulties they face in understanding love and commitment. It can’t be stated enough that parents face many challenges in being present and acknowledging their children’s feelings during a challenging time, such as navigating all of the changes that occur as a result of a divorce (or separation), particularly when the parents are grieving themselves.

This episode implores all adults to empathize with children struggling, particularly during holidays and challenging family situations. As a society, we must break the cycle of inadequate support by providing better guidance to the next generation.

I encourage all listeners to engage with the episode and provide feedback to help shape future discussions on supporting children through divorce and the holidays. We adults must raise awareness about children’s grief, advocate for improved support systems, and empower all parents to navigate challenging situations with sensitivity and understanding. Future generations depend on what we adults choose to do or not do in response to children’s grief.

RESOURCES:

_______

NEED HELP?

  • National Suicide Prevention Lifeline: 1-800-273-8255
  • Crisis Text Line provides free, 24/7 support via text message. Text HOME to 741741 to connect with a trained Crisis Counselor

If you are struggling with grief due to any of the 40+ losses, free resources are available HERE.

CONNECT WITH VICTORIA: 

 

Victoria Volk: Hello friend. Thank you for tuning in to this episode. And it is a follow-up episode to the one before last week, Children’s Grief Awareness. And I said in that episode that I would bring in part two where I’d be talking more about supporting children through divorce and through the holidays as it relates to grief and divorce in general.

Victoria Volk: And I wanna share that, the first episode, Children’s Grief Awareness part one, has not been a very popular episode, and I just want to share how sad that kind of makes me not kind of, it does make me sad. And I suppose, I’m not sure exactly who you are listening to this. Do you not have children? Do most people who listen to this podcast not have children? Are you older? And maybe your children are older? And don’t have young children anymore, that could be. I would love to know why that episode isn’t resonating or if it did, please share that too.

Victoria Volk: And I would just love to know like who’s really on the other side listening to my voice. Are you listening in the car? Are you listening while you wash dishes? Are you listening on your commute? Or when you’re walking, I would love to know. So please share your feedback on the podcast directly please email me. Consider this like you supporting me in research. Because I’m really am curious. Please email me at [email protected] or find me on social media, Instagram is usually where I like to is my go to @theunleashedheart, and on Facebook, you can message me, Victoria The Unleashed Heart.

Victoria Volk: Anyway, I’m sure you can find me. Links are in the show notes too. If you are interested in helping me do that research. I would love to know who you are listening because I really am curious why that episode isn’t so popular, but regardless because I’m so passionate about children’s grief and the child grievers out there because I was one and I grew up as one. I’m still going to record a part two even though that last episode may not have been as popular because I feel like it is such an important topic because even if your children are older, they’re teenagers this still applies to you if your children are adults, who may be are starting their own families. Please share this with them too. I guarantee you that you probably know or have a child in your life, and this is just great information to have in your back pocket or to share with someone you know.

Victoria Volk: So, piggybacking on what I shared last week. There are some points I want to drill home. Point one is that children learn how to deal with loss at a very early age. That’s something I didn’t talk about in the last episode, but the vast majority of parents don’t realize that children, by the age of three, have learned or developed seventy-five percent of the skills that they will use for the rest of their lives to deal with issues that face them. Most parents rarely know or think about this when they are dealing with the daily issues related to their children. I’ve been there so many times, I can’t even tell you. Parents are very much in the moment when they’re talking to their children and likely they don’t even take into consideration how their children store things in their personal belief system.

Victoria Volk: While the vast majority of the information that parents pass on is of value. Like, we all, we are the teachers. Right? Mixed in with all of that good information can be also misinformation on how to deal with loss. And I’ve talked about this before on the podcast, but when your back is up against the wall and you have a grief experience, you’re gonna resort to what you know. And even when your children are faced with a grieving experience, you as a parent are gonna resort to what you know and likely what you were taught as a child is what you will pass on to your child. Unconsciously or consciously, some things, we don’t even really think about it. We just respond. Right? We just react. And that’s what we tend to do is respond in a knee-jerk reaction.

Victoria Volk: Point two I wanna make is that grief is more than an emotional response to death. I’ve talked about this so many times, but again, it bears repeating when it comes to childhood grief too. Because it’s not just about death, and children don’t need to be dealing with a death to experience grief. Comes in a lot of forms. Many losses that impact a child may seem insignificant to you as the adult for like example, let’s say, their favorite toy, and they can’t find it. They lost it. Where another child broke it. It seems insignificant to use the adult or the parent. But to us, it’s like, I can just buy go buy another one. I mean, there’s a million in one soccer balls or whatever it is. But to the young child that lost that toy or that whatever it is, it can be overwhelming. Especially if maybe it was a gift or something like that. Likewise, as adults, we become accustomed to friends saying things to us that we might find upsetting. And we might take offense. And in the moment, but we often are able to look at that comment if we take a step back, look at it from a broader perspective, and based on our relationship, not let that statement have a long-lasting emotional impact on us.

Victoria Volk: However, adolescents and teens do not have an adult’s perspective. And can find one negative comment or a breach of confidentiality emotionally devastating. In both situations, children are dealing with a very real grief grieving experience. And without realizing it, the way parents respond to these early grieving experience can establish a pattern for how the child learns to deal with loss for the rest of their lives. Even though as parents, we don’t see these early issues as being related to grief. They have nonetheless set a reactive response to loss in the child’s belief system. And it’s not like we’re trying to pass on bad information to our children. It’s just something that happens. A child is the most complex thing we ever bring home and they do not have detailed cautionary information stamped on the bottom of them. Right? They don’t come with a manual.

Victoria Volk: Point three, early education on loss for parents helps prepare children. The children in their life Grief Education is prevention. This is prevention. Most parents never think about helping their children deal with personal emotional loss until there is a crisis of some kind. It may be the death of a family member, a friend, or a pet that forces them to act. And it might be a divorce or some other major life event. Rarely do parents realize that they have already inadvertently given children in ineffective tools to deal with loss, even with previous minor issues their children may have experienced. And when parents face a crisis, they equally find themselves lost, like, as anyone would. Right? Like grief devastating loss just flips your entire world upside down. So your first thought might be to send your child to a professional for assistance. But the problem with that is that the children may see the professionals as advice as being in conflict with what they have already learned. A complicating factor, no matter the value of what this professional tries to teach them, can be conflicting information if the parents are not on the same page as that professional. And so mixed information or interactions with the child can just all it does is create more confusion. Taking all of that into account alone, should have you running to the bookstore or going on to Amazon and ordering the book when children grieve just based on what I just said. Or finding a support group program, like someone like me who facilitates the Helping Children with Loss program. Rather than waiting to for you to recognize that your child is struggling, you can help though with an overwhelming loss in advance, why wait for there to be a devastating loss or an issue to surface before we decide to help our children. Doesn’t it make more sense to teach parents the things they need to know to help their child feel safe to express their sadness during those first three years of life? And again, this is when these children aren’t just starting to develop the belief system that they will use for the rest of their lives. That is why Helping Children with Loss, When Children Grieve The Handbook is prevention. This information is prevention.

Victoria Volk: Now that I’ve gotten these three points out, I wanna start talking about divorce in the holidays as it relates to children in their grief experience. And it might surprise you that we actually divide divorce into two different categories, long-term or sudden. And the difference with divorce is that there is often one partner who has been struggling for a long time. While the other partner has been unaware, that things are not right. And so when the later gets served with divorce papers, it can have the impact of a sudden death, and some children are very aware of a problem in their household. I would say most are aware because children are sponges. They take in information in all kinds of ways and their eyes and ears are always listening and hearing and seeing and watching. So they have often seen and been subjected to arguments between their parents over an extended period of time. And for those children, the announcement of a divorce will fall under the heading of a long-term condition. And on the other hand, some parents manage to conceal from their children, their personal difficulties with each other. And when children who were not aware of any major problems are informed of an impending divorce, their reaction is also as if a sudden death has happened. The impact can be overwhelming to a child. And there’s a high probability that a child may begin to participate in a variety of short-term energy-relieving behaviors in response to the sudden news of their parents’ divorce. It could be said that a divorce is a family matter. And even though there is truth in that comment, the bottom line is that the couple is getting the divorce and the children are in the line of fire. The collateral damage to the children can be monumental.

Victoria Volk: The children caught in a divorce are experiencing multiple losses. What loss or losses are they experiencing? Well, look at the conflicting feelings caused by a change or an end in a familiar pattern of behavior. So some examples of losses that children may experience while their parents are going through divorce is a loss of patient that this family would be together. The loss of trust, loss of familiarity and routines, loss of safety, loss of childhood, loss of residence, and or the change to dual residences. Any one of these losses is enough to break a child’s heart. Not to mention, feel overwhelming.

Victoria Volk: So let’s look at each of these in a little bit more detail. Looking at the loss of expectation that the family would be together, children are taught about love and honor and trust and loyalty by their parents. They learn how to be loving and considerate how to resolve conflicts and how to get along with others. And from literature and films and religious institutions, children also learn that the vows exchanged in the marriage ceremony pledge a commitment to those virtues. And whether or not you’ve experienced this, think about how can fusing and disturbing it must be to children when their parents cannot maintain that pledge to each other. Also, take loss of trust. Imagine the conflicting feelings children must experience as a divorce scenario unfolds, or explodes before their eyes. What reference point do they have to deal with those feelings? It is very difficult teach your children about love and simultaneously teach them about divorce. Given that implicit promise that the family will always be together, the divorce itself represents a major breach of trust.

Victoria Volk: Moving on to loss of familiarity and routines, this is difficult all by itself, and it’s often greatly intensified by the fact that children may be undergoing other major transitions as they move from childhood to adulthood. We know all too well that the stresses and strains of those transitions can have powerful consequences. And those transitions can be happening in every age bracket.

Victoria Volk: Next, loss of safety. Familiarity in routines build safety in a sense of well-being. The patterns established within a family are usually dismantled by divorce. Children flailing around and the emotional aftermath of a divorce often do not feel very safe. Safety and familiarity go hand in hand, so it is a good idea to limit the amount of additional changes.

Victoria Volk: Loss of childhood. The instinct for survival can take many forms. For the most part, survival actions are beneficial. Sometimes they backfire. The scenario in which children take care of a parent is one example of such a backfire. It is understandable that children who would instinctively try to protect the very person or people who are supposed to protect them. It’s the child’s way of trying to guarantee their own survival. But this impulse to care take puts them in conflict with their own nature. Divorce tends to turn children into amateur psychologists. It spurs them to analyze and figure things out. It forces them to grow up before their time and to take on attitudes and actions that are not appropriate to their time of life.

Victoria Volk: And I can say this specifically for myself that that holds a lot of truth just for my own experience of my dad passing when I was eight years old, my parents didn’t divorce. He died, but like I said earlier, divorce can be this long-term experience where it can be this like a sudden death. And so that’s where there’s similarities that can be expressed in divorce, as well as a death of a parent.

Victoria Volk: And talking about loss of residence or change to dual residences, everything that I’ve talked about has been magnified when the move is the result of a divorce. The moves or changes caused by the divorce carrying emotional weight which is added to the fact that moving in and of itself changes everything that is familiar and routine for a child. Think about it. If you change your job, you’re going to a new you might move across to a different state, you’re going to have new coworkers, new neighbors, new friends. You’re leaving old friends and colleagues behind. The same goes for children. But it’s on a scale that taking all these other things into consideration and what I’ve already shared you can see why this would have probably long-term effects on the well-being of a child.

Victoria Volk: And here’s what I’ll say to all of this. When as parents, we work on our own grief and work to resolve what is emotionally complete for ourselves and the losses that we’ve experienced in our life, whether it’s loss of trust or loss of safety or loss of our spouse or parent. We learn how to simply be present with a child in our life. Regardless of their age. You can simply be and not have to do anything. You don’t have to fix your child. You don’t have to give advice. You don’t have to jump in or change a subject. You can just listen and acknowledge. And this is what builds trust with children. And I will go on to say to starting first, going first, speaking to how you had expectations for your life with your significant other that didn’t work out, but that doesn’t mean that that child has loved any less. It doesn’t mean that you care about that, the other parent, any less. You might, but to not use that time that you have with your child to bad mouth or talk about the other parent, but instead use the time that you have with your child to. Let them share. Let them express. Let them give voice to what they’re feeling, to what they’re thinking. That is what builds trust with children.

Victoria Volk: And this is where grief recovery is the most helpful because you can simply learn how to connect with your child at an emotional level. And not take away the feelings of the child. That’s not the goal. It’s not the goal to fix just to be and listen. And so as we’re navigating the holidays coming up and the changes of homes or sharing the holiday with a significant other or your now ex-spouse, or ex-significant other. Think about that. Think about what that child put yourself in the shoes of the child. What will they be experiencing? What would how are they feeling about especially if this is the first holiday the first Thanksgiving or the first Christmas where the child is feeling torn between two homes. Feeling torn from their mother, being feeling torn from their father, or whatever the situation is. It could even be a grandparent and a parent. Right? I mean, there are so many different scenarios to what a family looks like these days that I just my point is though is to think about the child put yourself attempt to put yourself in that child’s shoes. And your child may say, well, you might ask, well, how are you doing? I’m fine. Children might appear to be fine. They might appear unscathed. But I guarantee you all of the change and disruption to their life, especially if it was I would say regardless if it was like this long-term thing that they saw issues, they knew that there were issues versus feeling like it was a sudden death. Either way, there is gonna be changes that the entire family will have to navigate and adapt to.

Victoria Volk: And I think if the child is brought into the fold of that experience and not shut out or, I mean, if you might think that you’re protecting them, but if protecting them is not letting them talk about their feelings or not letting them share or not having them have a voice that is not helping them. And so I just wanted to encourage you if you find yourself in this situation or someone who is or if it was a death, let’s say it was a death of a parent, all of these things can still apply that I just talked about. There’s still going to be a lot of change. There’s still going to be a lot of uncertainty and by keeping those points in mind that I started out this episode with, you can be a soft space. And a place for a child to turn to not to be fixed, but to be heard.

Victoria Volk: And I guess that’s my whole point in sharing this episode. These two episodes is to bring awareness to childhood grief because it is a thing. Even though child children may appear fine, they may appear like they’re not being affected. I guarantee you they are on some level. They could just be expressing what they’ve learned from you. They could be emulating what they’ve learned from you. And so take that into consideration like how have you shown up in your grief and express that to your child regardless of what their age is because you can look back in hindsight and you’re always a parent. You’re forever a parent. That never changes. So whether it is an adult child or whether it is a young child, this is an episode where you can reflect on the past and think about the lessons that you passed out to your children and maybe share this episode with them and have a conversation. Maybe some things that you would have liked to have done differently or that you wish would have gone differently. That’s grief too. Grief is a loss of hope, dreams, and expectations. Anything that we wish would have been or could be different, better, or more.

Victoria Volk: And that’s what I gotta say about that. This is for the children out there, the grievers, the most vulnerable among us, and you grow up one day. I know you’re a child. You’re not as a child, you’re not probably listening to this. But as an adult, if you were a child who experienced a lot of grief and you grew up with grief. I see you. I hear you. I know you because I am you. And this is why I’m so passionate about sharing this information today in this episode and the last episode. And I do hope that the downloads go up because there are a whole lot of children suffering in this world and there are a whole lot of adults who grew up as children who felt as though they were suffering.

Victoria Volk: And if you are now a parent like me and you were a child griever, you can break the cycle. You can break those patterns and those things that you learned that were misinformation and unhelpful to you you can learn new knowledge and new tools to support your children and to break that cycle moving forward. That’s all I gotta say today on this topic. I hope you found it helpful. Please share it with a parent that you know or love or use it as a tool for yourself to become a better version of yourself as a parent to children that you are raising. And remember, when you unleash your heart, you unleash your life. Much love.

Ep 168 Part I | Children’s Grief Awareness

Part I | Children’s Grief Awareness

 

SHOW NOTES SUMMARY: 

In light of November 16th being Children’s Grief Awareness Day, I recount my experience as a child griever in today’s episode.

Back in the ’80s, and still very much today, the topic of grief was uncomfortable and not something people openly shared their feelings about. Not to mention, the resources that exist today did not exist back then, leaving society to fend for itself and perpetuate the myths of grief I so often talk about: Don’t Feel Bad, Replace the Loss, Grieve Alone, Be Strong, Keep Busy, and Time Heals.

Growing up with grief poses many challenges for children, particularly with the loss of parents, safety, and security. The myths of grief have been ingrained in our society, and grieving children of the past, like myself, grow up passing those same myths down to their children. Hence, the cycle of grief misinformation continues. This is why I am so passionate about talking about grief because the cycle must be broken.

The more people who recognize they’re not forever broken or destined for a life of grief and instead learn new information and tools, the better off future generations will be – the better off our world will be.

I encourage all listeners to empathize with grieving children during this Children’s Grief Awareness Day. Reflect on the role you play in the life of a grieving child you know. If you want a child to feel safe in sharing, as an adult, you often have to go first in sharing.

Through this episode, you will also learn children’s common reactions to grief and more. In Part II, I will focus on an experience many children have today – divorced parents and navigating the holidays, especially if this is the first holiday without a loved one.

RESOURCES:

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NEED HELP?

  • National Suicide Prevention Lifeline: 1-800-273-8255
  • Crisis Text Line provides free, 24/7 support via text message. Text HOME to 741741 to connect with a trained Crisis Counselor

If you are struggling with grief due to any of the 40+ losses, free resources are available HERE.

CONNECT WITH VICTORIA: 

Victoria Volk: Hello, hello, good morning, good afternoon, or good evening, whatever time it is that you are listening to this thank you for being here. If this is your first time listening, I hope you enjoy this episode. And if you find it helpful, I hope you share it or leave a five-star review if you feel like it’s beneficial information and if you walked away learning something, and if this is not your first time listening, thank you for tuning in again. And if you have not left a review yet for the podcast, I would greatly appreciate it.

Victoria Volk: Today, I wanna talk more about child grief because Thursday, November sixteenth is Children’s Grief Awareness Day. And I felt it was important just to share a little bit more on this topic for children’s grief awareness because I think, let’s say, if you lose your spouse or you lose your parent, right, if the child loses their grandparent, it can be really easy to kinda get wrapped up in your own emotions and your own feelings and thoughts and sadness. Right? And I certainly experienced this for myself as a child griever where there really wasn’t a lot of communication with me asking me as an eight-year-old how I felt about my dad’s passing or how I felt about not seeing him or essentially growing up without him.

Victoria Volk: There really wasn’t a whole lot of conversation directed at me and about how I was dealing with that devastating loss. He had been sick for several years colon cancer. I am currently the age that my dad was when he passed away. I’m forty-four years old. And I cannot imagine. He was sick for about two years before he passed. And by the time they caught it, it was or founded it was too late, but he hung on. And he put up the good fight, but I did have a lot of difficulty with that loss, both getting into my twenties, certainly as a teenager it’s not an easy time anyway, but my mother had I’ll say quickly because to me, as a kid, it’s seemed quick. Within two years, my mom was remarried and this new guy was in our life and he treated me well. There was no issue there. He wasn’t there a lot because he was a long-haul trucker.

Victoria Volk: And my childhood was just a really, like, full of extremes. Right? It was these really high highs and these really low lows. But there was more lows than there were highs because they didn’t have the best relationship. And of course, it’s really difficult to be married to someone who isn’t there a whole lot just in general. So anyway, my childhood and my teen years were just a really difficult time, and that was the best I could, and I found myself really trying to emotionally care take others I was often the emotional caretaker for my mom and for a lot of friends, like I was the shoulder that friends cried on, and I was happy to be the supportive friend, to be the friend that was there for everyone.

Victoria Volk: I’d been through a lot at that by my teen years, I had been through a lot and experienced a lot more than maybe some people I know that are my age now. And so I had to grow up fast I did. I had to grow up fast. And so I really don’t feel like I had much of a carefree childhood that children really do deserve. And so that’s really why I wanted to highlight this topic today because for me, Children Grief Awareness Day is all about the kids. So I just want you to listen and set aside whatever you’re experiencing, whatever sadness and grief and whatever you’re feeling about a loss that you’ve recently had, and you have a child that’s experiencing it alongside you. I want you to just set aside whatever you’re feeling and attempt to put yourself in the shoes of this child that you know or love. No end love. Maybe it’s your own child. Maybe it’s your grandchild. Maybe it is maybe you’re an older sibling and it’s a younger child in the family, that’s still at home because maybe you’re in your twenties and your sibling is like fifteen I don’t know, but I’m just the focus today, let’s put it on the children. And so as you’re listening to this episode, it is my hope that you walk away from this episode learning something.

Victoria Volk: So many of the normal and natural signs of grief are fairly obvious. And most of those signs would be the same for a child’s reaction to a death, divorce or some other type of loss. But let’s just say we’re talking about news about a death. Often, the immediate response learning of a death is a sense of, like, this numbness, which can last a different amount of time for each child. What usually lasts longer and is even more universe is a reduced ability to concentrate. And I can say that for me, as a child, if I would have gone to a therapist or a psychologist or what had you, which was not the case. My mom would have probably been told that I had ADHD. So other common reactions include major changes in eating and sleeping patterns. These patterns can alternate from one extreme to the other. Also typical is a roller coaster of emotional highs and lows. And these are not stages. They’re simply just some of the normal ways in which the body and the mind and especially the emotions respond to the overwhelmingly painful information that something out of the ordinary has occurred.

Victoria Volk: So going back to my personal experience as a child griever, and within the year of my dad’s passing, I know I mentioned this on the podcast before, but if you’ve never listened to an episode, I was molested and in going into my teen years. So when I say that my childhood was you know, not much of a childhood. I’m this is the context in which I’m speaking to that. So there was a lot of change and a lot of trauma in my early life. And I can tell you that I slept a lot. Most of the pictures I have of myself as a child are of me sleeping, sleeping in the middle of the living room, floor midday or before actually bedtime, falling asleep on my bed before a birthday party, which I completely miss because my mother felt the need to take a picture but not wake me up for the birthday party. And I was a tardy a lot with school. And I would always get an elementary school. It was like an n for needs improvement. I would always have an n for listens to and follows directions.

Victoria Volk: So again, comes back to this change in sleep patterns or inability to concentrate. And just really fidgety. Like, I just recall being very just very much in, like, my own la la land. But these reactions to a death are normal and typical. And even if there has been a long-term illness, like in the case of my dad, which may have included substantial time and opportunity to so unquote unquote prepare for that which would inevitably happen. We cannot repair ourselves or our children in advance for the emotional reaction to a death because we don’t understand the finality. We can’t even wrap our heads around the finality of that moment until it actually occurs.

Victoria Volk: If you’ve listened to any previous episodes, you’ve heard me say that grief isn’t just about physical death. There’s a much broader definition that encompasses all losses experiences, which I’ve shared before on this podcast. But if this is your first time listening, grief is the conflicting feelings caused by a change or an end in a familiar pattern of behavior. So, if you’re thinking about like these list of losses that include death of a pet, death of a grandparent, moving, divorce, divorce of a child’s parents, and death of a parent. Each of these losses represents a massive change or end from everything familiar. With death, the person or path that has always been. There is no longer there. With moving, the familiar place and surroundings are different. Divorce alters all of the routines in a child’s life. It often includes changes in living situations and separation from extended family, members and friends. All of these losses mentioned carry with them the obvious emotional impact that we can all imagine would affect children.

Victoria Volk: But our definition of grief includes the idea that there are conflicting feelings. If you’ve ever had a loved one who struggled for a long time with the terminal illness, you may have had some feelings of relief when that person died. The relief usually stems from the idea that your loved one is no longer in pain. At the same time, your heart may have felt broken because he or she was no longer here. So the conflicting feelings are relief and sadness. Moving also sets up conflicting feelings. We may miss some of the familiar things that we liked about the old house or the neighborhood. And at the same time really like some of the things about the new place.

Victoria Volk: Children are particularly affected by changes in locations, routines, and physical familiarity, death, divorce, and even moving or obvious losses, unless the parent or loss is having to do with health issues, a major change in the physical or mental health of a child or a parent can have dramatic impact on a child’s life. And even though children are not usually involved with financial matters, they can also be affected by major financial changes, positive or negative within their family. Society has identified more than forty life experiences that produce feelings of grief. And at the Grief Recovery Institute, they’ve expanded that list to include many of the loss experiences that are less concrete and difficult to measure such as loss of trust, loss of safety, and loss of control are the most prominent of the intangible but life altering experiences that affect children’s lives.

Victoria Volk: Intangible losses tend to be hidden and often do not surface until later in life through therapy and other self-examinations. I can tell you that that was certainly true for myself. I hope that this initial information is a good foundation that it helps you gain a better understanding of how grief just doesn’t impact you, but it impacts the children in your life in a lot of similar ways, but in a lot of different ways too.

Victoria Volk: I’m gonna make this a two-part series. Next week, I’m going to record and focus on children with divorce, experiencing their parents with divorce. Because we’re going into Thanksgiving and the holidays and things and with it being Children’s Grief Awareness Day. I’m just gonna make this a two-part and hopefully you can find some resources and support in moving into the holidays through these couple episodes. That’s the episode for today. I laid the foundation. Come back next week for where we’re gonna talk about divorce. And that impact on children and navigating all of that with the holidays. So I hope to have you back next week. And in the meantime, remember, when you unleash your heart, you unleash your life. Much love.

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