Divorce, Grieving Voices Guest, Pespective, Podcast |
SHOW NOTES SUMMARY:
In a world where life’s transitions often have heavy financial implications, Leah Hadley is a beacon of guidance and support. On this episode of Grieving Voices, Leah—founder of Intentional Wealth Partners and Intentional Divorce Solutions—shared her journey from investment analyst to empowering individuals through some of their most challenging moments, including divorce, of which she brings her personal experiences into her work with others.
Leah navigated personal upheavals such as adoption and divorce while building her career in finance for over fifteen years. Her transition to entrepreneurship was not just about professional growth but also about creating flexibility to address the nuanced needs of her own family and those facing significant life changes like divorce.
Key Points Discussed:
- Leah’s transition from an investment analyst to starting her own business to accommodate her role as an adoptive mother and her experience through divorce.
- The challenges faced during divorce include co-parenting dynamics, emotional turmoil, and financial restructuring.
- The importance of understanding one’s finances when heading into a divorce.
- The importance of support systems.
- Working as both an advocate for one spouse or neutrally for couples to optimize marital estate division fairly.
One core message from our conversation was the critical need for financial clarity amidst the emotional storm of separation. Leah underscored how even experts can feel overwhelmed when emotions cloud judgment—a powerful reminder that during times of distress, having expert advice isn’t just helpful; it’s essential.
For anyone facing the daunting path of divorce, Leah advises taking measured steps toward thoroughly understanding their finances before making any decisions. This approach minimizes costly mistakes and ensures today’s choices positively shape the future.
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Navigating Life’s Transitions with Financial Empowerment: Insights from Leah Hadley
Life is a journey marked by transitions, and while some are joyous, others can be incredibly challenging. One of the most tumultuous changes many face is divorce—a process that not only signifies the end of a relationship but also brings about profound financial implications. In this blog post, we dive into the insights shared by Leah Hadley on Grieving Voices, where she offers invaluable advice drawn from her personal experiences and professional expertise as a financial empowerment expert.
From Analyst to Advocate
Leah’s career trajectory took her from being an investment analyst to becoming a trusted financial adviser. Her decision to launch Intentional Wealth Partners and Intentional Divorce Solutions stemmed from her desire for flexibility and dedication to addressing the specific needs of individuals undergoing significant life shifts such as divorce or adoption.
Her own path wasn’t just shaped by professional growth; it was deeply personal too. Having navigated through adoption processes and her own divorce, Leah understands firsthand how emotional distress can cloud one’s judgment—especially regarding finances.
The Crucial Role of Financial Clarity in Divorce
Divorce isn’t just about legally parting ways with your spouse; it involves dissecting intertwined lives—and finances play a huge role in that separation. As Leah points out, achieving financial clarity is paramount during this time:
1. **Understanding Your Finances**: It begins with grasping the full picture—your income streams, monthly expenses, assets you own jointly or individually, debts owed together or separately.
2. **Consulting Experts**: Engaging with financial neutrals who provide unbiased guidance can be critical alongside at least consulting lawyers for legal aspects.
3. **Taking Measured Steps**: For those embarking on this daunting path, taking it one step at a time helps manage overwhelming emotions tied to these decisions.
Communication & Respect: Pillars During Transition
When children are involved in a divorce scenario—or any family transition—the stakes rise significantly concerning communication dynamics:
– Effective Communication: This means managing challenges without letting past baggage interfere with present conversations (e.g., discussions around children’s education).
– Mutual Respect: Treating each other respectfully ensures that co-parenting decisions remain consistent and child-focused despite differences between parents.
Facing Fear Through Preparation
Fear is an inherent part of any major life change—be it retiring or coping with loss—but preparation diminishes its grip over us:
– By utilizing tools like comprehensive financial planning ahead of transitions like buying houses or retirement planning.
– Recognizing fear as natural yet addressable through informed support systems.
Avoid DIY Pitfalls & Embrace Expertise
Common missteps during divorces include attempting to DIY complex legal procedures without adequate knowledge—a risky endeavor leading potentially towards bankruptcy among other issues:
1. Seeking early consultation minimizes risks associated with uninformed decision-making.
2. Tapping into community resources provides practical assistance along with familial understanding during trying times.
Furthermore, resources such as “divorce toolkits” aid in organizing your finances meticulously which could translate into reduced legal costs down the line—an aspect where services offered by professionals like Leah come into play offering tailored solutions based on case complexity.
Finally—and perhaps most importantly—Leah encourages viewing divorce not merely as an end but also as an opportunity for self-realignment and growth despite challenges faced throughout this period.
In conclusion, whether you’re facing upheaval due to personal relationships ending or other significant life events triggering fear and uncertainty—it’s essential not only to seek clarity within yourself but also reach out for expert guidance when needed. Remember: You don’t have to navigate these waters alone; there are compassionate professionals ready to steer you toward calmer seas equipped with intentionality every step of the way.
Episode Transcription:
Victoria Volk: Thank you for tuning in to this episode of grieving voices. Today, I am happy to welcome Leah Hadley, She is a nationally recognized financial empowerment expert is committed to providing personalized compassionate financial guidance through life transitions. She will tell you she’s had many challenging financial times in her adult life, becoming a parent of three overnight, getting divorced, and building a business from the ground up to name a few. These have been times when her ability to hunt down appropriate resources and careful financial planning was critical to her peace of mind. A former investment analyst sought after speaker an award winning financial planner Lea is the founder of intentional wealth partners and intentional divorce solutions. Leah uses her knowledge of more than fifteen years of experience to help our clients make intentional, financial decisions. Thank you so much for being here, my being my guest, and for sharing a topic, I think, specifically for divorce, but because of your background experience of and your personal experience of divorce and just briefly before we started to record of adoption, I think that we can go into two of these big life transitions pretty deeply on this podcast.
Leah Hadley: Thank you so much for having me. I appreciate the opportunity.
Victoria Volk: So let’s start with how you got from investment analyst to building your own business.
Leah Hadley: Yeah. It was not planned, Avianis. It was an equity research analyst. And so for equity research, you travel quite a bit to the companies that you cover and to the portfolio managers that are your clients and that kind of a thing. And my ex husband and I had decided that we were going to adopt and we were adapting through the foster care system. And at that time, it was very difficult to get through all of the requirements with the travel that I had for my job. And so I decided that, you know what, just to be the mom that I wanted to be, that job was not gonna be very conducive to what I wanted for my life. And so I decided that I would take my skills and start helping individuals and families, and I became a financial advisor with a large broker dealer at the time. And we were blessed with three amazing children while I was there. And then I found that there was only one way to do business there. They had kind of a structure in place that didn’t allow a lot of flexibility. And honestly, people have different needs especially people who are going through life transitions. So I decided to leave there and go to another firm that I thought was gonna allow me to do more work helping people through these transitions and also found a lot of red tape at that particular firm. Ultimately, I found that if I really wanted deserve people in a way that I felt like people needed support. And I wanted the lifestyle that I wanted for my kids, so I wanted a lot of flexibility to be able to be there to take them to their therapy user to, you know, participate in the PTA and all of these things that I needed to do it on my own. I needed to create the, you know, way of serving people, create the hours, create the time, that’s gonna work for me and my life. And so, ultimately, that’s how I ended up struggling my own business.
Victoria Volk: I have two questions, and I’m gonna ask them so I don’t forget.
Leah Hadley: Okay.
Victoria Volk: Had you had you always wanted to be an adopted mom, first of all? And then the second question is, can you make a distinction between and maybe that if things are different today, I imagine, in firms and that process. But can you make a distinction for people for, like, the financial planners and the firms, Edward Jones, or whoever they may go to, versus these transitions that require maybe a little bit a different approach. Can you make that distinction for people? So two questions for you.
Leah Hadley: Absolutely. So I had not thought that I would become an adaptive mom. That wasn’t something that I had, you know, grown up thinking about or anything like that. And my ex husband and I came to that decision after a lot of conversation and We had a wonderful couple who introduced us to many adoption resources. We went to some different workshops and things to learn more about what the options were.
So it was a long road to deciding that that was gonna be the right option for us. And as far as the different kinds of firms in the way that they serve people. They each have like, especially a larger firm, has a certain way of doing things because there are so many rules in the industry. There just are. There are today, there were then, there are a lot of rules in the industry. And so they create ways of doing business to make sure that everybody is in compliance with all of those rules. But what happens is then you have somebody that doesn’t quite fitthe mold, what they need, doesn’t necessarily fit the way that they do business, And suddenly, that firm is not gonna be the best one to serve that person. Okay? And so for example, if you think about a divorce, every divorce is different. There are no two divorces that are the same. Financial planning for divorce is like financial planning on steroids. You know, you’re looking at every single thing and you’re knowing that everything’s gonna change. Right? And so there are so many different scenarios that it can be really hard for a very large firm to make sure that if they have a lot of advisors working in the space, that they are always in compliance. If they’re not going through that advisers, you know, all their communications and all their reports and things like that. And so I think that’s where it’s really tricky. I don’t think, you know, they’re set out to not help people. But I think there are are very real reasons why it can be difficult for them to have the flexibility to support people in different transitions in their lives. Does that make sense?
Victoria Volk: Yes. And so when you found yourself, going through your divorce, where were you at in your career at that point? And with the kids,
Leah Hadley: Yeah. I was working as a financial adviser, and I was on my husband’s health insurance at the time. And so I was not going to have health insurance through my employer when we divorced, which was a big issue. And I really wasn’t making enough to work myself and the kids as a single mom either. And so that was a big issue for me as well. So there was a lot going on there as far as, you know, when I was going through this transition and figuring out how can I continue, what does my job need to look like how can I be available for these kids in a way that I need to be available for them? So that’s kind of where I was and what was going on.
Victoria Volk: What were some of the things that you did then to navigate that divorce in what worked for you, what didn’t work for you? If you could go back in time, what you can’t, what would you have what would you have done differently, things like that?
Leah Hadley: Yeah. You know, one of the things that we did really, really well Victoria, we spent a lot of time talking about the conversation we were gonna have with our children and letting them know that this is what we had decided to do. And we had really prepared well for that conversation. We sat down together and had that conversation with all three children. My youngest was still a toddler, so I think it was very difficult for him to really understand what was going on. But the other two were old enough to understand at the time. And we had a great conversation with them and answered questions and it went really well. What we didn’t plan for is everything that comes after that. And so one, my ex husband moved out and the kids would go between our homes, especially my youngest. He was still a toddler. He would scream and, you know, fuss because he had to go between our homes. And, you know, toddlers don’t like change. And, you know, it didn’t matter which way the kids were going. It was always very volatile, stressful situations when we were going through these transitions. And he lived close to me. So it’s not like we live as far apart. We really tried to make this as easy on the kids as we could, but those transistors were really, really difficult. And, you know, you still have the hurt and the anger and all of that that goes along with the divorce itself. And so we’re struggling as adults with our own feelings but then also didn’t necessarily have the communication in place to deal with what does co parenting look like going beyond this initial conversation. So that first year, that first year was very, very hard. I was, you know, changing jobs, starting my own business, we’re dealing with, kind of with a schedule that was working for our family. There were just so many changes that we were experiencing at that time. And I think it was just really hard on everybody. What could I have done differently? Absolutely sat down and had a conversation with my ex husband very early on about how we wanted to handle communication, how we wanted to handle transitions. Now we actually have dinner as a family about one a month. I talked to him every single week, you know, we really prioritize making sure that we’re staying on the same page when it comes to raising our children So that way, you know, we’re both there. We’re we’re still a united front even though we’re both remarried to other people, you know. And just really prioritizing what co parenting looks like for us. But it took us a while to get there.
We had to get past some of that, our own hurt and our own anger, to really be able to get to a place of being able to have these comfortable communications and prioritizing the children’s needs.
Victoria Volk: What resources and or people you bring in to your divorce experience that helped you at that time?
Leah Hadley: I have to tell you, I am so fortunate because so many people’s families really struggle when people get divorced and have a hard time kind of finding their space within this new family structure. But my mom has always been my rock. She had gone through two divorces of her own many years ago. And so I think she really understood. I mean, she raised my brother and I as a single parent. I think she really understood what I was going through. And, you know, she was there for both me and my ex husband. It’s not like she was just there for me. So when we needed childcare, we needed you know, one of the kids to get a ride somewhere or something, she was always willing to step in as much as she could. And that was so beneficial. She never said anything negative. About my ex husband, especially nothing in front of her children. And she was really a huge, huge, huge support. Another big support was my church community, and I also know that everybody’s not that fortunate in that respect either. But I wasn’t a church community that was very supportive in helping me figure out you know, what is this role for me? How do I balance these things? How do I take the kids to certain activities and whatnot? And still be able to participate as an adult. So I was very lucky in a lot of ways. I didn’t feel a tremendous amount of judgment, which I know so many people do. And I think my heart just breaks for them when I hear some of their stories. But I I was very fortunate in that I had a community that really surrounded me and lifted me up and helped me figure out what I needed. And even when I didn’t know what I needed, Victoria, somebody would say, hey, let me take your kids for for an afternoon and and give you a break or, you know, something like that. And it was just so valuable
Victoria Volk: in terms of what you do today, intentional divorce solutions. And I imagine that much of your experience or much of the work that you do is based on your personal experience, and you bring that to the work with that you do with clients. So aside from family support, community support, how about in terms of maybe you see a lot of people making different mistakes, you know, as they go through that divorce process. Not I’m talking the financial stuff now. Like, the financial advice, the what do you do next?
Like, how do you create the separation of assets and all of that? What did you bring into your divorce that helped you at that time? And is that what’s really, I guess, informed the work that you do today.
Leah Hadley: It is a big part of why I do what I do because one of the things I saw, you know, I had been a financial professional for years before I went through my own divorce. And it was still, financially, these changes were incredibly overwhelming today. And I a a a budgeter. I go through and create an annual budget every year and then update it throughout the year. And that skill of being able to do that and knowing how to adjust that budget in order to deal with these huge changes I was experiencing. Was so, so important to my peace of mind. Like, I just don’t know how I could have gotten through it without being able to do that. But there were times when I was just so emotionally overwhelmed, I couldn’t I couldn’t sit there and look at the budget and figure it out because I couldn’t get myself to be clear headed enough to really take those skills and use them. Right? And so for somebody who had that much experience and was still struggling, And I’ll tell you, even today, I work with a lot of accounts who are going through a divorce. I work with other financial planners who are going through a divorce. It doesn’t matter what your background is, when you’re going through this huge change impacting every area of your life, can just cloud your, you know, anything that you’re trying to think about objectively. So I did not use a CDFA when I wasgoing through my divorce. Quite frankly, we didn’t have that much of a complex financial situation. But I did definitely lean on the tools that I had already created in my life in terms of budgeting and looking at our assets and looking at our debts and figure out how’s all of this going to work out. But again, my mom was incredibly supportive. My mom does have a financial background. And so when I couldn’t see through the trees, you know. She could really help me kinda clear my way and and say you’re out, okay, this is what we need to prioritize right now. You know. So for example, when we first got divorced, I needed to make sure I got health insurance right away. I was responsible for the mortgage on the home because I stayed in the marital home. So there were all of a sudden big expenses that really increased on me very quickly, and I knew that my income at that time was not going to support that. And so I had to make a change.
Victoria Volk: And what did that look like?
Leah Hadley: So that’s how I ultimately ended up starting my business. First, I went back to equity research because I thought, okay, if I just need to make more money, this is a place where I could make more money. Right? And I could get good benefits. But it came back to right where I was before we ever had the children in that that is just not a career that’s very conducive to prioritize in motherhood. And so I started my own business, and I was really serious about looking at how am I going to support us, and it took some time but I was able to build, you know, two thriving businesses at this point. And and it it ended up working out, but I’ll tell you what. It was not an easy road those first couple of years.
Victoria Volk: I’ve built two businesses too over the over the years and it’s a grind. It’s definitely a grind at first, you know, up all day with the kids and then up all night because they’re sleeping and then you can actually sit and focus and do what you need to do. And so, you know, I love entrepreneurs in that way just because I understand that, you know, sometimes you live your life a certain way that most people wouldn’t so that you can live the rest of your life how you want. Right? Right. What are the baby steps people can take as they’re listening to you and find themselves. Maybe maybe they got served papers or they’re thinking about serving papers to their spouse and, you know, just embarking on this. Journey. What are some baby steps people can take?
Leah Hadley: Yeah. It’s really important that people get very clear on their financial situation. How are you gonna make any decisions if you’re not clear on your current financial situation? And I recognize that this can be very, very difficult for a spouse that may not be involved in the family finances. I work with lots of people who weren’t involved in the family finances during the marriage. Suddenly you’re going through this huge life change and you’re just learning about your own financial situation. So if that is you, you’re absolutely not alone. But that makes it even more important to really prioritize figuring out what is income, where is it coming from, when am I receiving it, What are expenses? What are my fixed expenses that are the same every single month? What are my variable expenses that change from month to month? And if you find that your income is barely covering your six expenses, money is going to feel tight. It’s going to. Especially if you have attorney fees on top of that or other professional services that you may be utilizing through the divorce process. So starting with a very clear sense of cash flow, income, fixed expenses, variable expenses is really important. Under standing what your assets are, what you own, and your liabilities are, what you owe. And so getting clear on what is the value of my home you may need to get an appraisal in order to get a good number on that. Right? Where are the retirement accounts? You know, whose retirement account is in, whose name. If you’re not quite sure you are not alone, so many times people will say, well, we have a joint retirement account. Well, there are no joint retirement accounts. So retirement account is an individual account. And so that’s, to me, a red flag that, like, okay. We’re not clear on the financial situation here. And so really knowing if you are a joint user on a credit card, if you’re an authorized user on a credit card, if it’s your own credit card, that can be very confusing for people. So really getting very clear on your financial situation, is a very important start because until you know what your whole picture looks like, how can you even start to think about dividing things? How can you even start to think about can I afford to stay in the house or what can I afford in terms of whether it’s a rental or another home if you don’t know what your financial situation looks like? So that may not feel like baby steps for a lot of people. I know that that can feel like a very, very big task start with one thing. Getting clear on where income is coming from, when income is coming in, how much.
Right? And then move on to the next thing. Look at, okay, what are my expenses that come every single month? And if you’re not sure, think about how they get paid. Can you go through a bank statement? Can you go through a credit card statement? Review, you know, the last several months and just make a list? It doesn’t have to be overly complicated. But the idea is just to give you some clarity around those numbers. Okay?
But just take it one step at a time. Now a lot of people will tell me, well, I don’t know what our assets are. I don’t know where the retirement accounts are. I don’t know where the investment accounts are. Okay. But if you know they exist, write them down. Just write down that you know there is an investment account. Maybe you know it’s held at Fidelity or something like that. So that way, Ultimately, you can gather that information. You may not have all the information at your fingertips. That is normal, unfortunately. But through the divorce process, you’ll be able to gather the additional information needed to really clarify that financial picture.
Victoria Volk: Do you generally work with one spouse? Or are you finding that you’re working with the couple? And then you’re an advocate for the couple? Going through that transition.
Leah Hadley: I do both. So sometimes I work as an advocate for one spouse and sometimes I work as a neutral for the couple. I think we do our most productive work when we can work as a neutral because then we’re looking at everybody’s financial situation. Trying to optimize the marital state for everybody involved. Everybody’s getting the same financial information at the same time. And that really helps people to stay on the same page. Everybody is looking at the same projections. So if if you’re looking at like a spousal support scenario and finding, okay, you know, I’m I’m thinking I need this much spouse to support, but my my spouse can really only afford that much spouse to support. How do we get to the numbers that are gonna work for everybody? So I really think it’s important to work as a financial neutral as much as possible. I realize that sometimes it’s just not possible. And we do actually more financial advocacy work for one spouse than we do neutral work, but that neutral work is so valuable.
Victoria Volk: I could see where that would be the best case scenario for, I think, both people going through that process just because for like you said, everyone’s on the same page, there isn’t this my divorce lawyer versus your divorce lawyer? And do people still have a lawyer on either side as they work with you generally?
Leah Hadley: So that varies. Sometimes we’re hired by the client directly. Sometimes we’re actually hired by the attorney. One people work in the financial neutral scenario. I like for them each to have a lawyer that they at least consult with. I think it’s important that you feel like you have the knowledge to make decisions for yourself through the process. There are options. It’s good to have the legal background. And I’m not an attorney. I don’t provide legal advice at all. I look at everything through that financial lens. And so for people to really consult and understand what the legal context is in your local area is really important.
Victoria Volk: Who do you think needs to seek support or counsel from someone with your expertise? Like, what are the most pressing scenarios? Or what do you say that.
Leah Hadley: So I find it fascinating who seeks out our services. It tends to be either the spouse who has limited financial knowledge and absolutely knows that they have no idea how they’re gonna work through this financial piece, and they know they need the support. But I’ve mentioned earlier that we work with fair amount of accountants, financial planners, attorneys. And so those folks know what they don’t know. And for whatever reason, we don’t get a lot in between. So we tend to get those who have limited financial knowledge and absolutely need that support. And those who know exactly what they don’t know, and that’s why they want to fill in that gap and they know they need to fill in that gap. But I think, you know, it’s really important that you do understand the financial decisions that you’re making through the divorce process because these decisions don’t just impact you in that moment in time. These are financial decisions that are going to impact your lifetime. They it’s a weird way to think about it, but for most people, the work is the largest financial transaction they will ever experience. And so not having good financial guidance to make sure you fully understand what are the tax implications of that decision. How are you going to support your cash flow, whatever the, you know, issues may be. You know, you’re really selling yourself short. If you’re not allowing yourself to have that person who can really help you to navigate these things. There are some very costly mistakes that people make. Because they just don’t know any better. And so having that applicant on your side can be really, really powerful. But I would say the people who really have limited financial knowledge it’s critical that they have somebody on their team who’s helping them understand and helping them to prepare for their next chapter.
Victoria Volk: Excellent advice. It’s like we, you know, we have a realtor when we buy a home and we go through all this paperwork and all this processes to do so, and that’s a huge financial investment and commitment as well. But like you said, this a divorce can that’s a lifetime impact. You know, I know some people that they end up filing for bankruptcy, did they even need to file bankruptcy?
Leah Hadley: Right.
Victoria Volk: You know, but you feel like you’re so overwhelmed with the pro I’m just gonna do this and be done with it and move on. And I think that’s a lot of what how people maybe approach it and probably one of the approaches that isn’t maybe in their best interest for the long term.
Leah Hadley: Yeah. And that is very true. A lot of people just wanna get it done. They just don’t wanna take the time to think it through. They just wanna be done with it. It feels difficult, that messy middle where you, you know, know you’re getting divorced, but you’re not divorced yet. And there’s a lot of ambiguity around finances during that period of time. We just wanna get past it. But, yeah, some of those mistakes can be so costly that you’re right. They can absolutely lead to bankruptcy or other issues.
Victoria Volk: You talked a lot about communication with your ex husband in that process. And I found on your website that you have a blog post about communication with an ex spouse and navigating all of those conversations that you especially if you have children. Right? You’re going to have this ongoing relationship with this person. And it sounds like you and your ex have done a beautiful job of making it not this, you know, pitting one against the other experience for the kids and just making it a family experience that can be as positive as it can be. So what are some recommendations that you have for the communication piece?
Leah Hadley: Well, I think one of the biggest recommendations I have is to be very real with yourself about where you are at personally at this moment in time. Because wherever you are, if you’re hurting, if you’re angry, and you’re not really paying attention to it, it’s going to come out in your communication. And so really acknowledging that, like, this is a difficult thing. This is really challenging. And it’s okay to have the feelings that you’re having. And then we can we can look at this communication as something that is important, something that I need to prioritize. And that I need to set these feelings aside for the moment in order to be able to have clear concise communication. And that is focused on, you know, whatever the outcome needs to be. Right? So if it’s related to the children and something going along going on at school, we’re not bringing all this baggage that has everything, you know, all these years of arguments and whatever led to the divorce ultimately. Into this conversation about what’s going on at school that we’re really focused on. Okay. This is what we’re communicating about in this moment. And I’m gonna acknowledge that, yes, I have all these other feelings, but I’m gonna set them aside for right now and really focus on what needs to be dealt with. But if you don’t acknowledge that, that’s where a lot of times we get those, you know, quick responses, especially angry responses, that have nothing to do with what you’re actually communicating about in that particular moment. And that’s where we were that first year, you know, that first year where we had not kind of cracked this communication code yet. You know, we were very irritable with one another. We were always assuming the worst in one another. Whereas now, we treat each other with a tremendous amount of respect, which, you know, that’s the kind of relationship I want my kids to see. Between their parents. I think that’s really critical. And we support one another, especially with the kids and making sure that they know that, hey, at the top of the dad’s house, you know, I’m gonna there’s still gonna be consequences in mom’s house because it’s not okay. Right? So really truly staying on the same page and and backing each other up in that life.
Victoria Volk: I think that’s huge even just when you’re married. Hate. I mean, I saw him for it when you’re married to pack each other up and be on the same page and know that, you know, the kids can’t pick one parent against the other. And well, mom said yes. And, you know, and then especially, it’s especially more important when they’re in separate. You know, homes of, you know, when the parents are separated or divorced. How much of it do you when you were talking about the anger and stuff. I one thing that came up for me or what I think I especially people that don’t have that background knowledge, I imagine that it would be a lot of fear that people are coming into your office with or just fear in general as you go through a divorce, like, how are you gonna support yourself? Like, everything that you’ve said, I’ve heard fear in everything that you’ve said. And so I think just bringing someone in like you who has that background expertise can help to diffuse that fear. Like, okay, I don’t know this, but she does. She’s the expert. And, you know, feel empowered by that. Having you as that you know, supports you are a support system for somebody going through this. And so I think it’s important that people recognize that it’s fear really that is probably driving the anger and the emotion and, you know, now you have this huge life transition and what do you do about it? And so let’s talk about some other life transitions that you assist people through that may be filled with fear.
Leah Hadley: You know, I assist people with really exciting things, like buying their first house or retiring or having a baby. They all do. These changes. Changes in our life, you are absolutely right. Do bring bring about fear. And so regardless of whether it’s something that you really look at as like a positive, I’m excited. This is what I’ve been working toward. You know, there are a lot of people who go through a very difficult transition when they retire. It can be really hard on somebody, especially if they had much of their identity tied into their work. And now it’s like, well, who who am I now that I don’t have this this part of me. Right? So certainly, loss of a loved one. You know, that is a huge area where people are so much like, what does life look like? And it’s in an instant in some cases. Right? In some cases, there can be more planning, but not in all cases. And so you know, what does this change mean for me? I had a woman one time come into my office and she had lost her husband. He had actually been sick for a while, so I wish he had come in sooner because we could have done some planning, but she hadn’t have her name on anything. She didn’t have her name on the credit card. She was just an authorized user. She didn’t have her name on bank accounts. And, you know, everything wasn’t set up to easily transfer over to her. So she goes, Leah, I feel like a two million dollars bag lady. Like, I don’t know what to do, and it was just unfortunate because there’s so much could have been done that could have made that transition easier. And then when you do have that that kind of a transition, there’s so much paperwork involved. And for some people, on a good day paperwork, it’s overwhelming. Right? So when you’re really going through all these these emotions, paperwork can absolutely just feel like the thing that’s gonna take you over. And so walking people through what are the steps that need to happen now? That’s a big part of what we do in any transition. Getting really clear on a, b, c, d, e, and knowing that these are the things that need to happen, and this needs to happen before that happens, and that sort of thing. But when people have that concrete guide, that can just be so beneficial because it takes some of this year away. And it’s like, alright. Let me just follow follow with the directions here and kinda work through it. But the other big thing when it comes to fear and finances is a lot of people just don’t necessarily understand the power of financial planning. You know, when you have a financial plan, it really truly is like your financial guide book. And it makes it very clear, will I have enough money to retire or a wall tie? And if I won’t, what changes do I need to make in order to make sure that I do. Right? When people have the financial plan and then they’re going through our divorce, you have that plan as that basis. So now you know, this is where we’re at. We need to make some adjustments here because obviously there’s some big changes but it’s so much easier for them to see what those changes mean for them when they had the plan to begin with. Right? They didn’t have the plan to begin with. Having that plan especially post a worse to know, hey, what can I really afford to spend? What can I really afford to invest for my future? And those kinds of questions, to make sure that I have that strong financial foundation that I’m building wealth and I’m working toward goals is really so critical for so many people’s peace of mind.
Victoria Volk: And what I heard you saying, there’s two things. It’s not enough to just have a retirement account and just letting it build and letting it do its thing.
Leah Hadley: Right? Right.
Victoria Volk: K. That’s that’s me. I’ll be I’ll be the first to admit. I got retirement accounts and they’re just doing their thing. So that’s mistake number one.
Right? And mistake number two that I heard that I figured out for myself as I heard you was that it’s not enough to have just an authorized user on a credit card. Yeah. I did not know that.
Leah Hadley: Mhmm. Yeah. So if you are an authorized user on somebody’s credit card and that card is closed. First of all, they can remove you as an authorized user at any time. They have complete and full control over doing that. But let’s say that person passes away or something and the account gets closed, you don’t have that credit history on your credit report because that wasn’t your your account. To begin with. And so you really need to have a credit card in your own name to be building your credit history.
Victoria Volk: Okay. So I’m so in the event of okay. Well, then it to it’s my it’s to my benefit. Right? Like, if I so for my credit card business credit cards and things like that, husband is an authorized user, but he’s not on the accounts.
So in the event of my passing, he’s not responsible for the debt that’s on those cards. Correct?
Leah Hadley: Not necessarily. Yeah. That’s that’s not necessarily the case. You know, it it can reconsider the marital debt. Oh. And, yeah, the the state can have to pay off those cards. So that’s kind of a gray area.
Victoria Volk: So even if there’s cash back, my husband wouldn’t be able to get that cash back.
Leah Hadley: That’s true.
Victoria Volk: See, it’s like, we can still stick them with the debt, but we weren’t gonna give them a give them a cash back. Okay. Well, good to know. What are some of the consequences you’ve seen in working with those who’ve tried other means or to DIY their way through divorce or other transitions. You know, they come to you maybe desperate. Right? Like, I’ve tried this and this and this and that didn’t work? Like, what are some scenarios that you’ve seen walk through your door?
Leah Hadley: You know, the biggest thing I see people is not wanting to deal with it. They literally just want to put their head in the sand and not have to deal with any of it. As far as the DIY stuff goes, I see some very big mistakes. Sometimes people kind of DIY through the divorce, and then they may come to me afterwards for support for financial planning or portfolio management, and I look at the agreement that they made and there may be tremendous amount of financial risk in that agreement that they hadn’t even thought about. So, for example, you know, spousal support is a big one where if it’s not protecting in some way and the payer of spouse’s support passes away, all of a sudden there goes your income. Right? So we look at how do you protect these things, whether it’s for life insurance policy or or something else. Sometimes people will withdraw funds from retirement accounts, not recognizing that there are other ways to deal with those transfers without having a huge tax burden or penalty associated with it. So I see all kinds of things that people are doing. When they’re when they’re not necessarily informed in doing things on their own, things that they just don’t know any better. Right? But the sooner that you can consult with somebody, the better, and the sooner you can pay attention to this stuff, the better. Like, just don’t keep your head in sand because a lot of times when that happens, people are just accruing debt as it relates to paying their lawyers and that kind of a thing. And it’s like, well, I’m just gonna kick that can down the road and deal with it later, but you can create a real financial burden for yourself if you’re not paid attention.
Victoria Volk: What I see what the dots I’m connecting here is that what you do in one area of life is how you do everything. And so if you are a person who wants to avoid conflict at all cost and confront confronting the things that you don’t want to deal with in life and throughout, like, So for example, if there’s trouble in your marriage and you just wanna put your head in the sand, you don’t wanna talk about it. Right? There’s in marriages, there’s many things you don’t wanna talk about money being one of the big ones. Right? So if you find yourself in your marriage, not talking about money. And I I have people in my life or they don’t have those conversations. There’s one person like you said in charge of everything and they don’t sit down and talk about you know, purchases even. Like, you know, you’re gonna see that reflected in a divorce if that’s where that relationship goes down the road. Like, So if you’re putting your head in the sand now and you’re married and you think everything’s hunky dory but you’re putting your head in the sand eventually that you know, that’s how you’ll respond when you get faced with challenges too, I think.
Leah Hadley: Well, that’s one of the reasons why I see a lot of divorces becoming real contentious is because the one person didn’t know necessarily about the financial situation. Now they’re learning about it through the divorce process, and they don’t trust anything. Because they’re just to that point where trust has been completely broken down. And that other spouse may very well be forthcoming with that information and maybe sharing exactly what’s going on, they may not be. But how do you know? Right? I mean, we certainly can do analysis to figure out what might be missing, what’s not being disclosed, things like that. But just kind of between the two, you know, it can be really difficult to know whether or not that person that can be trusted. So if you come into the divorce process, both being very clear on the current financial situation, you can avoid that whole issue.
Victoria Volk: That is the big takeaway, I think, in this episode today is communication. It comes down to communication. Being open and honest and communicating makes your life a whole lot easier. Alright? Yeah. We’re kinda nearing the end of our time together. And I just wanna touch back, though, on what you experienced in your divorce and personally. And what were some of the helpful and unhelpful things that you experience throughout that time. And maybe things that people said to you.
Leah Hadley: You know, one of the things that I think about when I think about divorce it’s one of these, it’s a huge life change. Right? But through all of the other life changes, there are some kinds of ritual celebration, something that happens. Right? Like, you know, you’re having a baby, you have a baby chatter, you’re getting married, there’s, you know, the whole ceremony reception, what have you. You’re going through a divorce, a lot of times it feels like you have to, like, close the curtains and hide and not necessarily say anything about what’s going on. And for some people had a divorce goes on for years. I was fortunate that, you know, ours was probably six months or something in that range, so it wasn’t, you know, real long. But It’s a period of time where it’s hard to talk about what’s going on. You know, I think a lot of people struggle with feelings of failure you’re grieving all of the loss of all of what you’ve dreamed about together. Right? You know, you have this image of what you thought your life was going to be. Not to mention this person who, you know, thought was going to be your life partner. So there’s a lot going on during that period of time For me, the most important thing was somebody just being there, just listening. I didn’t want anybody saying anything bad about my ex husband. That’s not I wasn’t in that space of wanting to hear that. I just wanted to know that I wasn’t alone that even though I felt like I had to shut the the curtains and kinda hide out, that that there was somebody else in there with me, so to speak. Right? That was really, really important to me. There are things that were awkward, like when I first got divorced, I had kept my ex husband’s name. When I remarried, I changed my name. But his his last name is one that people asked about a lot. And so every time I had this conversation with somebody, I had to beep, like, awkward and, oh, that’s my ex husband’s last name. And I didn’t necessarily want somebody I had just met and I didn’t wanna be talking about my ex husband. Right? And so divorce was really very normal. It is very it happens a lot. And so I think normalizing it is really, really important. I’ve said before, I was so fortunate in that I was supported by my community. I didn’t feel a lot of rejection around the divorce itself. I was just struggling with the changes in my life, but I know for a lot of people there is this whole other element that makes it even more complicated and more difficult. Right? And so just you know, having people who are there can take some of the pressure off you even, you know, for me, my kids were young, taking them for a little bit of time. So I would have a break, you know, my mom taking them overnight sometimes. So I would have space, you know, just being able to have time to spend with friends and not have to worry about what’s going on with the kids. I could not afford babysitters when I was first going through my divorce and, you know, had all those expenses right away, but people were also so generous in, like, giving me clothes that their kids set out brown or you know, giving us toys or, you know, things like that that are just let me just make your life a little bit easier. I know you’re going through a difficult time Let me just do something. Right? All of that stuff was so so meaningful to me and just helped that transition so much.
Victoria Volk: Do you see more women coming to you or particularly maybe men that I think there’s this I think there’s this idea that men should know what to do financially and things like that, but that’s always that’s not always the case where they’re the ones that who were in charge of the finances or were involved with the finances. So is it kind of a mixed bag, or do you see one more versus the other?
Leah Hadley: I definitely see more women. But I also have men who reach out as well. You know, a lot of times in relationships nowadays, one of the spouse’s teachers responsibility for the finances, but it’s not always the man. Sometimes it is the woman who takes responsibility for the finances. But it’s also not always the person who wasn’t involved in the finances that reaches out. You know, I mentioned before a lot of times it really is that person who knows that their knowledge is limited. So they have enough knowledge to know that they need support. But it’s it’s both genders. I see more men reaching out for financial neutral service than I do, women, but that’s just kind of how our practice is. I don’t know if that’s overall.
Victoria Volk: I was looking at your website and I saw that you have some resource is on there, and you have a resource resource toolkit. Can you speak a little bit about what that includes and what someone can find coming to your website and maybe that’s their baby step.
Leah Hadley: Yeah. There’s a lot in the toolkit. It’s a really valuable bundle of resources There’s everything from ebooks around parenting and negotiation skills to a financial clarity kit, which is a series of videos that walks you through the steps that I was talking about before where you really get clear on your income, get clear on your expenses, your assets, and your liability. It’s So there are a variety of resources that are really all about helping you to get super organized and prepared for the divorce process. The more organized you are, the more you will save on legal expenses. One of the reasons that legal bills go up is just because of that lack of organization and people don’t even think about it. But going back and forth with attorneys about documents and things like that, it’s just unnecessary in a lot of cases. You get everything organized, provide it to them all at once, make sure they have everything they need. That can actually save you quite a bit
Victoria Volk: of money. Wow. I actually know of some people I’m going to share that resource with that are going through a divorce and You also have the podcast intentional divorce insights as well, and that’s weekly. Correct.
Leah Hadley: Yeah. Yeah. We just launched that this year. We’ve had some wonderful wonderful guests on the podcast, and I definitely encourage anybody who really wants to be empowered through the divorce process, not to feel like I’m just a victim of the process or I’m giving my power away to my attorney. But people who really want to be educated and empowered through the process to check out that podcast and great resources on there.
Victoria Volk: Howard Bauchner: And you say the word empowered, and I mentioned that earlier, that I think just having you in in someone’s corner is empowering. Right? Yeah. Because you don’t know what you don’t know. Right.
So even if you don’t know, you have someone that does.
Leah Hadley: That’s right. That’s right.
Victoria Volk: That’s empowering. Is there anything else that you would like to share that you didn’t feel you got to mention,
Leah Hadley: just that you get through it. You know, it’s a difficult time. There’s a lot of emotion. There’s a lot of financial change. But the beauty of the work that I do is I often am working with people on ongoing financial planning and investment management post divorce. And I get to see you know, how their life changes. In a lot of cases, you know, they’re meeting their next person or, you know, starting a job or a business that they love or whatever that next chapter looks like for them, I just get to see so many wonderful things taking place. And if you allow yourself to really look at it, as like being your time to really take ownership over your life and, you know, really be in alignment with what’s important to you and your values. It can really be a beautiful next chapter. It’s just getting through that messy middle.
Victoria Volk: About how long do you generally work with a person, an individual, or a couple through the process?
Leah Hadley: So through the divorce, it just depends on the divorce itself. You know, it could be anywhere from three months to three years, really. But ongoing, you know, we work with people through their lifetime. So
Victoria Volk: And do you is it chart, like, a charge, like, per session? Or do you have packages? Like, how do you set up that that work environment for people.
Leah Hadley: Yeah. So on the divorce side of the business, we try to do as much as we can on a flat fee basis. Based on financial complexity. That’s because, you know, we want people to ask us questions. A lot of times, people won’t faster or surety questions because they’re worried about the bill. And so we really try to structure it that way. In terms of the investment management financial planning that we do ongoing basis. That is also on a flat fee for financial planning or a percentage of the assets that we manage, for portfolio manage.
Victoria Volk: Awesome. Well, I have learned a lot today, and I thank you for your time and your personal story and experience of what brought you to the work you’re doing today. And I I I always say this, but I think ninety nine point nine percent of the guests I have in my podcast, they’re doing what they do today because of their past experience. It’s, you know, we find our purpose through our pain often. And so I’m glad that you have phoned yourself in this situation to be of service to others in this way. I’m, you know, unfortunately, you had to go through some difficult times to get there, but I think I think anybody who’s been through a challenging time or a really hard transition eventually. We look back and like, oh, man, that sucked, but it sure really helped build my resilience and empower me to be who I am today. And I think that’s the message I want people to take away from today’s podcast is, one, plan ahead. Two, you’re not a failure. It’s it’s learning. Right? You’re always learning. And three, it’s this is temporary. Right? There’s hope. Absolutely. And your corner.
Leah Hadley: Well, thank you so much for the opportunity to be here with you. It was really my pleasure.
Victoria Volk: Thank you. And I will put links to your resources in the show notes. Again, divorce resource toolkit. Get your hands on it. Share it with someone you love who’s going through this that really could use some empowering information, you know, some baby steps. Information at least. So thank you again. And when remember, when you unleash your heart, you unleash your life. Much love.
Childhood Grief, Divorce, Educational, Grieving Voices Podcast, Parenting, Podcast, solo episode |
Part II | Supporting Children Through Divorce and The Holidays
SHOW NOTES SUMMARY:
This episode is a follow-up to the last one to bring awareness to Children’s Grief Awareness Day on November 16th, 2023.
In this episode, I dive into supporting children through divorce and their challenges during the holidays. We must recognize that children experience various forms of grief and that parents play a crucial role in helping them cope with loss. Parents who receive early education on loss are better prepared to support their children effectively.
The impact of divorce on children is explored, highlighting the multiple losses they experience and the difficulties they face in understanding love and commitment. It can’t be stated enough that parents face many challenges in being present and acknowledging their children’s feelings during a challenging time, such as navigating all of the changes that occur as a result of a divorce (or separation), particularly when the parents are grieving themselves.
This episode implores all adults to empathize with children struggling, particularly during holidays and challenging family situations. As a society, we must break the cycle of inadequate support by providing better guidance to the next generation.
I encourage all listeners to engage with the episode and provide feedback to help shape future discussions on supporting children through divorce and the holidays. We adults must raise awareness about children’s grief, advocate for improved support systems, and empower all parents to navigate challenging situations with sensitivity and understanding. Future generations depend on what we adults choose to do or not do in response to children’s grief.
RESOURCES:
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NEED HELP?
- National Suicide Prevention Lifeline: 1-800-273-8255
- Crisis Text Line provides free, 24/7 support via text message. Text HOME to 741741 to connect with a trained Crisis Counselor
If you are struggling with grief due to any of the 40+ losses, free resources are available HERE.
CONNECT WITH VICTORIA:
Victoria Volk: Hello friend. Thank you for tuning in to this episode. And it is a follow-up episode to the one before last week, Children’s Grief Awareness. And I said in that episode that I would bring in part two where I’d be talking more about supporting children through divorce and through the holidays as it relates to grief and divorce in general.
Victoria Volk: And I wanna share that, the first episode, Children’s Grief Awareness part one, has not been a very popular episode, and I just want to share how sad that kind of makes me not kind of, it does make me sad. And I suppose, I’m not sure exactly who you are listening to this. Do you not have children? Do most people who listen to this podcast not have children? Are you older? And maybe your children are older? And don’t have young children anymore, that could be. I would love to know why that episode isn’t resonating or if it did, please share that too.
Victoria Volk: And I would just love to know like who’s really on the other side listening to my voice. Are you listening in the car? Are you listening while you wash dishes? Are you listening on your commute? Or when you’re walking, I would love to know. So please share your feedback on the podcast directly please email me. Consider this like you supporting me in research. Because I’m really am curious. Please email me at [email protected] or find me on social media, Instagram is usually where I like to is my go to @theunleashedheart, and on Facebook, you can message me, Victoria The Unleashed Heart.
Victoria Volk: Anyway, I’m sure you can find me. Links are in the show notes too. If you are interested in helping me do that research. I would love to know who you are listening because I really am curious why that episode isn’t so popular, but regardless because I’m so passionate about children’s grief and the child grievers out there because I was one and I grew up as one. I’m still going to record a part two even though that last episode may not have been as popular because I feel like it is such an important topic because even if your children are older, they’re teenagers this still applies to you if your children are adults, who may be are starting their own families. Please share this with them too. I guarantee you that you probably know or have a child in your life, and this is just great information to have in your back pocket or to share with someone you know.
Victoria Volk: So, piggybacking on what I shared last week. There are some points I want to drill home. Point one is that children learn how to deal with loss at a very early age. That’s something I didn’t talk about in the last episode, but the vast majority of parents don’t realize that children, by the age of three, have learned or developed seventy-five percent of the skills that they will use for the rest of their lives to deal with issues that face them. Most parents rarely know or think about this when they are dealing with the daily issues related to their children. I’ve been there so many times, I can’t even tell you. Parents are very much in the moment when they’re talking to their children and likely they don’t even take into consideration how their children store things in their personal belief system.
Victoria Volk: While the vast majority of the information that parents pass on is of value. Like, we all, we are the teachers. Right? Mixed in with all of that good information can be also misinformation on how to deal with loss. And I’ve talked about this before on the podcast, but when your back is up against the wall and you have a grief experience, you’re gonna resort to what you know. And even when your children are faced with a grieving experience, you as a parent are gonna resort to what you know and likely what you were taught as a child is what you will pass on to your child. Unconsciously or consciously, some things, we don’t even really think about it. We just respond. Right? We just react. And that’s what we tend to do is respond in a knee-jerk reaction.
Victoria Volk: Point two I wanna make is that grief is more than an emotional response to death. I’ve talked about this so many times, but again, it bears repeating when it comes to childhood grief too. Because it’s not just about death, and children don’t need to be dealing with a death to experience grief. Comes in a lot of forms. Many losses that impact a child may seem insignificant to you as the adult for like example, let’s say, their favorite toy, and they can’t find it. They lost it. Where another child broke it. It seems insignificant to use the adult or the parent. But to us, it’s like, I can just buy go buy another one. I mean, there’s a million in one soccer balls or whatever it is. But to the young child that lost that toy or that whatever it is, it can be overwhelming. Especially if maybe it was a gift or something like that. Likewise, as adults, we become accustomed to friends saying things to us that we might find upsetting. And we might take offense. And in the moment, but we often are able to look at that comment if we take a step back, look at it from a broader perspective, and based on our relationship, not let that statement have a long-lasting emotional impact on us.
Victoria Volk: However, adolescents and teens do not have an adult’s perspective. And can find one negative comment or a breach of confidentiality emotionally devastating. In both situations, children are dealing with a very real grief grieving experience. And without realizing it, the way parents respond to these early grieving experience can establish a pattern for how the child learns to deal with loss for the rest of their lives. Even though as parents, we don’t see these early issues as being related to grief. They have nonetheless set a reactive response to loss in the child’s belief system. And it’s not like we’re trying to pass on bad information to our children. It’s just something that happens. A child is the most complex thing we ever bring home and they do not have detailed cautionary information stamped on the bottom of them. Right? They don’t come with a manual.
Victoria Volk: Point three, early education on loss for parents helps prepare children. The children in their life Grief Education is prevention. This is prevention. Most parents never think about helping their children deal with personal emotional loss until there is a crisis of some kind. It may be the death of a family member, a friend, or a pet that forces them to act. And it might be a divorce or some other major life event. Rarely do parents realize that they have already inadvertently given children in ineffective tools to deal with loss, even with previous minor issues their children may have experienced. And when parents face a crisis, they equally find themselves lost, like, as anyone would. Right? Like grief devastating loss just flips your entire world upside down. So your first thought might be to send your child to a professional for assistance. But the problem with that is that the children may see the professionals as advice as being in conflict with what they have already learned. A complicating factor, no matter the value of what this professional tries to teach them, can be conflicting information if the parents are not on the same page as that professional. And so mixed information or interactions with the child can just all it does is create more confusion. Taking all of that into account alone, should have you running to the bookstore or going on to Amazon and ordering the book when children grieve just based on what I just said. Or finding a support group program, like someone like me who facilitates the Helping Children with Loss program. Rather than waiting to for you to recognize that your child is struggling, you can help though with an overwhelming loss in advance, why wait for there to be a devastating loss or an issue to surface before we decide to help our children. Doesn’t it make more sense to teach parents the things they need to know to help their child feel safe to express their sadness during those first three years of life? And again, this is when these children aren’t just starting to develop the belief system that they will use for the rest of their lives. That is why Helping Children with Loss, When Children Grieve The Handbook is prevention. This information is prevention.
Victoria Volk: Now that I’ve gotten these three points out, I wanna start talking about divorce in the holidays as it relates to children in their grief experience. And it might surprise you that we actually divide divorce into two different categories, long-term or sudden. And the difference with divorce is that there is often one partner who has been struggling for a long time. While the other partner has been unaware, that things are not right. And so when the later gets served with divorce papers, it can have the impact of a sudden death, and some children are very aware of a problem in their household. I would say most are aware because children are sponges. They take in information in all kinds of ways and their eyes and ears are always listening and hearing and seeing and watching. So they have often seen and been subjected to arguments between their parents over an extended period of time. And for those children, the announcement of a divorce will fall under the heading of a long-term condition. And on the other hand, some parents manage to conceal from their children, their personal difficulties with each other. And when children who were not aware of any major problems are informed of an impending divorce, their reaction is also as if a sudden death has happened. The impact can be overwhelming to a child. And there’s a high probability that a child may begin to participate in a variety of short-term energy-relieving behaviors in response to the sudden news of their parents’ divorce. It could be said that a divorce is a family matter. And even though there is truth in that comment, the bottom line is that the couple is getting the divorce and the children are in the line of fire. The collateral damage to the children can be monumental.
Victoria Volk: The children caught in a divorce are experiencing multiple losses. What loss or losses are they experiencing? Well, look at the conflicting feelings caused by a change or an end in a familiar pattern of behavior. So some examples of losses that children may experience while their parents are going through divorce is a loss of patient that this family would be together. The loss of trust, loss of familiarity and routines, loss of safety, loss of childhood, loss of residence, and or the change to dual residences. Any one of these losses is enough to break a child’s heart. Not to mention, feel overwhelming.
Victoria Volk: So let’s look at each of these in a little bit more detail. Looking at the loss of expectation that the family would be together, children are taught about love and honor and trust and loyalty by their parents. They learn how to be loving and considerate how to resolve conflicts and how to get along with others. And from literature and films and religious institutions, children also learn that the vows exchanged in the marriage ceremony pledge a commitment to those virtues. And whether or not you’ve experienced this, think about how can fusing and disturbing it must be to children when their parents cannot maintain that pledge to each other. Also, take loss of trust. Imagine the conflicting feelings children must experience as a divorce scenario unfolds, or explodes before their eyes. What reference point do they have to deal with those feelings? It is very difficult teach your children about love and simultaneously teach them about divorce. Given that implicit promise that the family will always be together, the divorce itself represents a major breach of trust.
Victoria Volk: Moving on to loss of familiarity and routines, this is difficult all by itself, and it’s often greatly intensified by the fact that children may be undergoing other major transitions as they move from childhood to adulthood. We know all too well that the stresses and strains of those transitions can have powerful consequences. And those transitions can be happening in every age bracket.
Victoria Volk: Next, loss of safety. Familiarity in routines build safety in a sense of well-being. The patterns established within a family are usually dismantled by divorce. Children flailing around and the emotional aftermath of a divorce often do not feel very safe. Safety and familiarity go hand in hand, so it is a good idea to limit the amount of additional changes.
Victoria Volk: Loss of childhood. The instinct for survival can take many forms. For the most part, survival actions are beneficial. Sometimes they backfire. The scenario in which children take care of a parent is one example of such a backfire. It is understandable that children who would instinctively try to protect the very person or people who are supposed to protect them. It’s the child’s way of trying to guarantee their own survival. But this impulse to care take puts them in conflict with their own nature. Divorce tends to turn children into amateur psychologists. It spurs them to analyze and figure things out. It forces them to grow up before their time and to take on attitudes and actions that are not appropriate to their time of life.
Victoria Volk: And I can say this specifically for myself that that holds a lot of truth just for my own experience of my dad passing when I was eight years old, my parents didn’t divorce. He died, but like I said earlier, divorce can be this long-term experience where it can be this like a sudden death. And so that’s where there’s similarities that can be expressed in divorce, as well as a death of a parent.
Victoria Volk: And talking about loss of residence or change to dual residences, everything that I’ve talked about has been magnified when the move is the result of a divorce. The moves or changes caused by the divorce carrying emotional weight which is added to the fact that moving in and of itself changes everything that is familiar and routine for a child. Think about it. If you change your job, you’re going to a new you might move across to a different state, you’re going to have new coworkers, new neighbors, new friends. You’re leaving old friends and colleagues behind. The same goes for children. But it’s on a scale that taking all these other things into consideration and what I’ve already shared you can see why this would have probably long-term effects on the well-being of a child.
Victoria Volk: And here’s what I’ll say to all of this. When as parents, we work on our own grief and work to resolve what is emotionally complete for ourselves and the losses that we’ve experienced in our life, whether it’s loss of trust or loss of safety or loss of our spouse or parent. We learn how to simply be present with a child in our life. Regardless of their age. You can simply be and not have to do anything. You don’t have to fix your child. You don’t have to give advice. You don’t have to jump in or change a subject. You can just listen and acknowledge. And this is what builds trust with children. And I will go on to say to starting first, going first, speaking to how you had expectations for your life with your significant other that didn’t work out, but that doesn’t mean that that child has loved any less. It doesn’t mean that you care about that, the other parent, any less. You might, but to not use that time that you have with your child to bad mouth or talk about the other parent, but instead use the time that you have with your child to. Let them share. Let them express. Let them give voice to what they’re feeling, to what they’re thinking. That is what builds trust with children.
Victoria Volk: And this is where grief recovery is the most helpful because you can simply learn how to connect with your child at an emotional level. And not take away the feelings of the child. That’s not the goal. It’s not the goal to fix just to be and listen. And so as we’re navigating the holidays coming up and the changes of homes or sharing the holiday with a significant other or your now ex-spouse, or ex-significant other. Think about that. Think about what that child put yourself in the shoes of the child. What will they be experiencing? What would how are they feeling about especially if this is the first holiday the first Thanksgiving or the first Christmas where the child is feeling torn between two homes. Feeling torn from their mother, being feeling torn from their father, or whatever the situation is. It could even be a grandparent and a parent. Right? I mean, there are so many different scenarios to what a family looks like these days that I just my point is though is to think about the child put yourself attempt to put yourself in that child’s shoes. And your child may say, well, you might ask, well, how are you doing? I’m fine. Children might appear to be fine. They might appear unscathed. But I guarantee you all of the change and disruption to their life, especially if it was I would say regardless if it was like this long-term thing that they saw issues, they knew that there were issues versus feeling like it was a sudden death. Either way, there is gonna be changes that the entire family will have to navigate and adapt to.
Victoria Volk: And I think if the child is brought into the fold of that experience and not shut out or, I mean, if you might think that you’re protecting them, but if protecting them is not letting them talk about their feelings or not letting them share or not having them have a voice that is not helping them. And so I just wanted to encourage you if you find yourself in this situation or someone who is or if it was a death, let’s say it was a death of a parent, all of these things can still apply that I just talked about. There’s still going to be a lot of change. There’s still going to be a lot of uncertainty and by keeping those points in mind that I started out this episode with, you can be a soft space. And a place for a child to turn to not to be fixed, but to be heard.
Victoria Volk: And I guess that’s my whole point in sharing this episode. These two episodes is to bring awareness to childhood grief because it is a thing. Even though child children may appear fine, they may appear like they’re not being affected. I guarantee you they are on some level. They could just be expressing what they’ve learned from you. They could be emulating what they’ve learned from you. And so take that into consideration like how have you shown up in your grief and express that to your child regardless of what their age is because you can look back in hindsight and you’re always a parent. You’re forever a parent. That never changes. So whether it is an adult child or whether it is a young child, this is an episode where you can reflect on the past and think about the lessons that you passed out to your children and maybe share this episode with them and have a conversation. Maybe some things that you would have liked to have done differently or that you wish would have gone differently. That’s grief too. Grief is a loss of hope, dreams, and expectations. Anything that we wish would have been or could be different, better, or more.
Victoria Volk: And that’s what I gotta say about that. This is for the children out there, the grievers, the most vulnerable among us, and you grow up one day. I know you’re a child. You’re not as a child, you’re not probably listening to this. But as an adult, if you were a child who experienced a lot of grief and you grew up with grief. I see you. I hear you. I know you because I am you. And this is why I’m so passionate about sharing this information today in this episode and the last episode. And I do hope that the downloads go up because there are a whole lot of children suffering in this world and there are a whole lot of adults who grew up as children who felt as though they were suffering.
Victoria Volk: And if you are now a parent like me and you were a child griever, you can break the cycle. You can break those patterns and those things that you learned that were misinformation and unhelpful to you you can learn new knowledge and new tools to support your children and to break that cycle moving forward. That’s all I gotta say today on this topic. I hope you found it helpful. Please share it with a parent that you know or love or use it as a tool for yourself to become a better version of yourself as a parent to children that you are raising. And remember, when you unleash your heart, you unleash your life. Much love.
Divorce, Grieving Voices Guest, Grieving Voices Podcast, Life with Human Design, Parenting, Podcast |
Amy Douglas | From Betrayal and Loss To Manifesting Joy
SHOW NOTES SUMMARY:
How much betrayal and loss can the heart take within less than two years?
Today’s guest shares how betrayal, loss, unsurmountable grief, and a decline in health catalyzed her personal growth.
Amy chose to empower herself by getting a life coach and learning new tools that enabled her to recalibrate her life and move forward beyond the hurt, pain, and emotional hurricane she felt stuck in for too long.
In this episode, we dabble into Amy’s experience with Human Design, what she’s learned about herself, and how Human Design became the permission slip to radically change things, including leaving her corporate job.
We have all experienced something that challenges our beliefs and who we thought others were. We may question who we are and our role in the mess, and often, fear and expectations play a role and serve a purpose in making sense of our experiences.
Listen to today’s episode to hear Amy’s perspective on fear, how learning her Human Design helped her change her approach and point of view of expectations, and so much more!
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If you are struggling with grief due to any of the 40+ losses, free resources are available HERE.
CONNECT WITH VICTORIA:
Victoria Volk: Thank you for tuning in to grieving voices. I’m so excited for this episode because I’m talking with Amy Douglas. She is a human design reader. And I have been working with her as her client. But today’s episode is about her sharing her grief journey in what she’s learned through human design about herself and her grief. And I’m just really excited to bring this knowledge to the podcast because, like, one of my favorite quotes is the more you know yourself, the less you look to others to tell you who you are. And so human design is just another tool in the toolbox to help you to better understand yourself. And so Amy, thank you so much for being here and sharing about your journey today and thank you for your time.
Amy Douglas: Well, thank you for inviting me. I’m thrilled to be here. I’m excited for our conversation. Grief is not something that we all love to touch on but reflecting on it and empowering ourselves to move through it’s such a critical part of our own evolution and definitely human design. I feel like in my journey with human design. If I were to say, you know, that I have felt grief by learning my design, it was the grief of not allowing myself to be what I chose for myself for so many years. And the grief of thinking or feeling that those ways that I chose for myself and my design were wrong because they’re not it’s just sad, we’re so full of not enoughness and design hasn’t powered me to release a lot of that, not enoughness, offer some deep compassion and understanding for myself and others. I love your quote. It’s so true. I see so many people looking to others for the answers, the right ways to do things, and they’re all within us. We just really get to take the time, to sit with ourselves, to uncover that.
Victoria Volk: People might not be familiar with human design can you just briefly cover what that is? And also too, like, we are both manifestors design, which is only like nine percent of the population and often the most misunderstood. So imagine the grief that that has caused us in our lives alone.
Amy Douglas: So true in being female manifestors. Right? Like, there’s there’s so many layers to it. So human design is, another one of those architectural ways to help us discern, kind of who we are. But there are a lot of different modalities that were brought in together, but I want you to just if you hear nothing else, it’s basically the blueprint or the owner’s manual, operators manual, that you chose for yourself to tell you how you are meant to be existing in this three-d experience. And who knew? We had an owner’s manual that told us so many ways like how we’re meant to make decisions, and how we process fear, and how we’re meant to digest food and life there’s, I mean, down to so many things that it really just offers you the opportunity to say, oh, this is what I chose for myself. Very much to your point instead of looking to others to help point us in it, quote unquote, right direction.
Victoria Volk: And I imagine like me who’s just now starting to get down the human design rabbit hole again after I dabbled in it maybe a year ago and just coming back to it now. But or human design, how did you navigate life without this manual? And what was your life experience before coming into human design?
Amy Douglas: So, I think I’m probably not different than many. We use our eyes and ears. To show us what is the path that we’re meant to take. And so whether that is witnessing it from loved ones, having someone tell you how to be and how to show up. I had a lot of that in my household. I’m the youngest of three girls. There was a lot of like this, be like this, don’t say that, don’t do that, don’t be too much, did it at, like, not necessarily the Barbie monologue, but you could probably put some words to that as well. And so I was trying to run at a pace in my life that I had witnessed was the way like, there was a lot of pride and applause for being really busy doing a lot of things and not like being quote unquote lazy there. That was a really that l word was really kind of ingrained into our household. We were not gonna tolerate laziness Well, can we redefine what lazy is? Because like, I mean, we all have the opportunity to sit and be with who we are.
Amy Douglas: I think a big pivotal change for me that led to a lot of grief in my life in twenty fourteen. I had a lot of loss in my family. I lost my dad in April. He was only sixty seven and had been battling a lot of hard stuff for nine years. So, we kind of said he had nine lives. And the last one was the taker. And then shortly after that, my mom became very ill. A lot of it was grief. Let’s be honest. They’ve been together their whole life. She ended up spending the entire summer in the hospital almost lost her a couple times. She had severe ulcerative colitis and thankfully, she’s got it at bay, but it was really challenging to negotiate and navigate her being in the hospital after losing dad. And her grieving in the hospital, in a hospital bed was traumatic. And then not no sooner did we get her home and my brother-in-law dropped dead in the shower. I mean, my mom and my sister within four months becoming widows together, it just was insurmountable. And yet I was kind of the rock in the family. Like, we’re all gonna be fine. I’ll help take care of everything. And that’s kind of what I did. I never really let myself feel anything. And honestly, to be real just completely transparent, I kinda like shut off my heart after my divorce about five years before that. I kinda just said, alright, my husband of seventeen years been together twenty, father both of my children left with my best friend. I don’t know where to process that, so I won’t I’m just gonna put on the happy face and exist. Run at the pace that I know will have me running away from any of those feelings. And then fast forward losing, so many family members and just a lot of grief with that.
Amy Douglas: And then in twenty fifteen, my dog who’d got me through my divorce and was only four years old, was diagnosed with lymphoma, and I’m like, oh, hell no, that’s the one person in that note has seen witnessed everything, one person, one thing that had witnessed everything. And so then, you know, whenever I lost him toward the end of fifteen. I was like, what the hell am I doing? And sixteen just really started a deep journey of just my own self discovery and just a lot of letting go of ways of thinking that I had to be. Really giving myself the opportunity to be very curious what I was feeling in my life. Started my journey. I hired a coach. I didn’t I mean, from the Midwest. We didn’t know what those words but my good friend, Google said that’s what you need sunshine if you’re gonna pull out of this. And so I hired a coach out of the West Coast and I was still a very much a trust bit verify kind of person. So it felt only right for me to get the education myself didn’t tell Seoul, did everything under the radar. I wasn’t allowed to moonlight in my corporate life that I was still running a ridiculous pace at. And I empowered myself through lots and lots of deconditioning, lots of letting go, which is the practice that you use in the coaching modalities and just the healing spaces of the world. In twenty nineteen, the beginning of twenty nineteen, I quit my corporate life. And that’s the year that design brought itself into my experience. And I was like, okay, I know now that I’m ready for you, but I had to do for myself a lot of the layers of letting go and, you know, getting curious versus and dropping judgment and letting myself feel things again for the first time. I hadn’t done that. I really shut that part of me off. And design came when it was meant to, and I think it does for many. I resisted it first I was like, oh my god. Just another thing to tell me, whatever. But it wasn’t a questionnaire. I wasn’t answering questions, I know how to manipulate those to get the letters I want or the data that I want. This is very specific information about your birth details. So you can’t really fake those. And it just led to just a really beautiful way of me embodying and trusting myself and believing in myself and allowing me to be unapologetically me, which is what I said I was gonna do when I left my corporate life and I think human design was the open permissions slip to do that for me.
Victoria Volk: Was there a certain moment? Do you remember where you were? What you were doing? Like this was there like this aha moment or was this was there a certain thing? Or thought or experience. Because sometimes we have these pivotal moments, right, that just change the trajectory of our life. Like, because I know so many people who might be in the corporate hamster wheel, who are scared to leave that behind, who desire to venture onto something that is a more authentic expression of who they are. What do you say to those people? How did you do that?
Amy Douglas: In July of twenty eighteen, when I was still going through well, I was in a mastermind with a bunch of coaches, and we were all supporting each other and just I never thought I was gonna lead my corporate life. Like, that wasn’t even in my radar. I was a single mom raising my children on my own. Right? And I had one daughter that was in a private college that was ridiculously expensive. The labeling of it was irresponsible. Right? If I did that. It was safe and secure for me to stay where I was even though I was really it was becoming very clear that I was miserable. My body, our body is our greatest messenger. And from about twenty sixteen, and I’m sure this was very, very grief-related, I started having all these warning signs. My hair was falling now. I had extreme insomnia. I thought for sure that I was gonna have a heart attack in my sleep and my children were gonna find me dead in the morning. Just all these terrible fears, Western medicine, is like your picture health. I am an avid exercise or eat really healthy, meditate, I all the things. And yet, what was I dismissing? What was I not paying attention to? So I think for me to answer your question in July of twenty eighteen, I wrote a contract I was at a conference with a bunch of my peer coaches. And I wrote a contract with myself of what it was gonna take for me to actually leave my corporate life. Like, I’d been ruminating on that all of twenty eighteen. Like, could I do this? Is this really what I want? Can I be free? Like, freedom has been my word since my divorce and peace, which is the signature of a manifestor, okay, has been something that I have been for lack of a better word victory chasing like, okay. What does that feel like? When am I gonna know when I have it? What’s available to me when I do? And so I wrote this contract out, very logically very corporate intense. It’s like these things must be true in order for me to leave. And my peer coaches just gave me a little, a little tap. I had them sign it as my witnesses. I was like, okay, I’m making this contract. These things must come true. And one by one over the course of the next six months, I just they were all limiting beliefs and I just let all of them go. One by one. Those were things I did not have to note that did not have to be true because they were limitations. What are limiting beliefs? They’re beliefs that limit you. From the thing that you wanna be having, being, or doing. And so by December, it was just like, oh, yeah, I’m doing this. Actually, I was on vacation in November. And I said to another couple, well, I’m leaving my corporate life in January. That’s the first time I’d set it out loud. Then I was like, oh, and very manifestor like Right? Say it out loud, and then it becomes your reality. And then by the time I did it on January second, it was a transaction. It was like it was already done. And so I think the aha was actually that contract witnessing my peers going, wow, she’s still really holding herself back without saying those words. Right? Just being intuitive enough to witness their receipts of whatever I was trying to create for myself. And then doing the work to show myself. I didn’t have to have all of these things in place because again, I was creating that safety and security which is not allowing yourself to really take the leap for what you want in your life. And I finally did.
Victoria Volk: I don’t want to gloss over all of the losses that you just scribed before. And but I also wanna talk about this the idea of fear. So can we go back in time though to that divorce? And do you think that that was a catalyst for you to start coming into your own? Really?
Amy Douglas: Oh, my heavens. Yes. I used to make a joke. Like, it was and it’s very, like, I hear it in bitterness now, but it’s like, I take a vote and I always win. What I need to do for this and who gets to do that. And I used to say, but I’m like, how do you do it? How do you do everything on your own? I’m like, well, I figured out that once he left, the only thing he really did that I wasn’t already capable of doing was put the Christmas tree in the Christmas tree stands and open the pickle jar. So I stopped buying pickles. That was easy. And every time I bought a Christmas tree here, I did that, I brought the Christmas tree stand to the Christmas tree farm and had them install it because I can. So it’s just do you see, like, it was just like, did I have the avoidant attachment style. I have now I understand that I have that. And so it’s like, I didn’t need them anyway, type of energy. But it did really empower me to be like, okay, I now get to look at what I in those in those days, I was still saying what I need to do, what I should be doing, what I have to do. I don’t use any of those words anymore. Need, should, and have to, are full of resistance. It’s what I get to do. And it took me a couple years to get there, right? Because I was still really proving my open heart, proving to myself that I could do this. I didn’t need him. I’m good, losing my best friend along with it was hard. That grief is real. It still stings. And just people through your most trusted people in your life gone in a flash and that image of what your life was. It was real. It was really beautiful life. And I remember sitting in the car with my kiddos, we were getting ready to go into a movie. Same year of the divorce. And it just was somber because we used to go to the movies as a divorce, and it was one of our favorite things to do. And I just presidential. I turned the car off. And before we went into the theater, I said, I’m aware there’s only three of us in here. And yet, I’m so grateful that there’s the three of us in here. So how can we make this the best that it can possibly be? And I think that was a real catalyst for all three of us to just be like, okay, we can grieve the loss and we still do. And yet, we can create something different. And that helped us crawl out of a lot. I think because we just prescient it. We were honest about what we were feeling. We kinda did this thing of what are we sitting in the car, staying in the car. So if you’re mad about things or just it’s okay. It’s safe in the car. Safe in the car. And then it’ll stay in the car when we get out. We don’t have to take it with us, you know. We just tried to create some spaces that felt like we’re not gonna be judged for how we’re feeling. Right?
Victoria Volk: I love that. I love that idea. How old were your children at the time?
Amy Douglas: So they would have been Ten and twelve. Yeah. Nine and eleven, ten and twelve, those were some really really hard in eleven and thirteen because Yeah. Those were some really hard years. Yeah. I think, honestly, Victoria, My son just turned twenty three. He has had a major health journey this year. Oh, my goodness. And I think we are both. He’s also an emotional manifestor like us. And I think he is allowing himself to grieve the loss of his childhood, Mhmm. And I’m so proud of him doing it now. And not waiting and carrying it all these years. He’s like, maybe I should’ve waited a couple years, like, till I got out of college and I’m like, you. Happens when we’re meant to, let’s not let’s not resist it.
Victoria Volk: And the best friend. I mean, I imagine too, like, in the relationship you had an extended, like, in your friendship with her, but in your marriage with your husband, you had not just those relationships, but you had circles of friends. Right? And so it’s not just the husband and it’s not just the best friend, it’s the circle of friends, too. Like Mhmm. Was everything just gone and one fell swoop? Like,
Amy Douglas: Yes. Yes. Yes. And we were not from the town that we were in, that this happened, we were, transplants. And we hadn’t been here long enough to really I mean, you know, three or four years just doesn’t feel like long enough where, she and her husband were lifers. Well, now, ex husband were lifers and there was just a lot of scrutiny, a lot of harshness on myself and my children. And the sporting events that you would look forward to going to. Now we’re just so isolating and dreadful. And praying the kids weren’t treated differently, but both of them were. It was just terrible. It was because they had kids and their kids were the same age as our kids and the same gender and so in the same classes and
Victoria Volk: Oh my gosh.
Amy Douglas: A lot of finger-pointing, a lot of assumptions. And while I used to say I just grew really thick skin, I think it was just the epitome of learning that what other people thought about me were none of my business because what really mattered was what I thought about me. That’s the only way I knew how to keep moving forward because I knew I was a good person. I knew that I was gonna come out of this. I knew my children were amazing. And yet, man, just a lot. I tried to get them to just like, you know what? We’re just gonna travel. I’m gonna get a tutor. Run do our own lives, but, you know, too much change, just way too much change for everything. So
Victoria Volk: I’m glad you mentioned that because my next question was going to be, did you ever just consider, like, packing all your bags and just going somewhere else and starting over and making a fresh start and without all of these reminders. I mean, whether your husband passes away or whether you get a divorce or whether it’s this scandal scandalous relationship that you’re describing, where it’s two couples, families are being torn apart. It can be very easy to just, again, like you said, add on more change in things. What like, to have the self-awareness about that, like, and to have really the courage and the strength, to stand up to it. Mhmm. I don’t know a lot of people like you. I’m just gonna say that. I mean, I mean, I’ve been doing this podcast for four years and just knowing the nature of grief and the trauma that had probably on you and your life and your kids. Most people would have just ran the other way. I never think, what was it? You think that
Amy Douglas: My daughter, she’s my oldest, and I put the house on the market. I didn’t. It was a big house. We lived on a lot of acres. We had a horse farm because my daughter used to gloved ride horses, and it was gonna be a lot to just take care of and maintenance and expensive, etcetera. And she just begged. She just said, can we just not change this? And I said, okay. We won’t change the physical location, but we are changing the energy of the inside, and we just changed so many things. I repainted everybody new furniture made rooms, different rooms just to create a totally so it wasn’t like, oh, I remember sitting in here as a family. Right? I just It was like just giving ourselves a quote unquote facelift, just like, okay. If we can’t move and create a new experience somewhere else, we’re going to create a new one here for ourselves. And I’m like, or whatever color you want your room, whatever furniture you want. Like, if you had want bunk beds because you’re done with this, let’s just change it up. Let’s change everything that we can and see what it feels like. Open g center, all three of us, so that felt really good for us. And I would have escaped in a heartbeat. And yet, I really needed to honor where they were. And when they came home and wounded by something that was said. We just I pressed it for him. I just let them talk about it and shared with them kinda what I just shared it’s not really any of our business. And I know they chose to share what they were feeling, but they don’t know us. And you’re the one that gets to look in the mirror every day and lay your head on your pillow every night. So just choose how you want to feel about yourself and that little eye rubber your glue. Whatever bounces off me, sticks to you. Like hold that little childhood chant as best you can and don’t be afraid to tell others if someone has wronged you because we’re not here to take it all in and not get any support. I had them through, counseling if they needed it. I ended up with a life coach for my daughter. That’s what really counseling just was hard. And they just wanted to keep repeating what you’d been going through, and she just wanted she’s like, I don’t wanna feel this anymore. I wanna look at where I am and look at where I’m going and that’s what coaching offers. And it was so pivotal for her. I mean, she and my ex-husband were they were, like, two peas in a pod. So that was hard. She and I thought to be out the female in the We both wanted to raise my son and now we both celebrate that we both raised my son. But it was a big dynamic change in the house. It was a lot to adjust too. And while I did a lot of my own morning and grieving after they were at bed at night, I just didn’t really want them to know that I was going through that for some reason. Now they have both their twenty three and twenty five and have both said to me, god, mom, why’d you make it look so easy? And now I wish I wouldn’t have. But yet, I was doing the best I could with what I had new then. And now I’m honest and I share with them how dreadful it was. How unbelievably hard and I thought many mornings they would find me, in my bed, gone. And while I’m grateful for the ways that I have learned, I tell them all the time I raised you through a lot of my unresolved issues, unresolved traumas, unresolved grief, and I can help presence anything that you’re feeling now, and there’s nothing wrong with anything that you’re feeling. And that feels really good to just be able to have we are the closest tight-knit threesome, and it’s fun because my daughter marrying down my son. It’s inevitable. And just like building that and deepening that, it’s so fun to be a part of. But yet, there’s nothing that’s off limits that we talk about anything and everything. And I don’t know that we would have victory if we would have stayed married. I think we would have lived in that paradigm that, okay, we’re the adults and you’re the kids, and I just let all of that go. Nope, we’re all equals here. Everybody gets a voice. So thank goodness for that.
Victoria Volk: I had full body chills as you were sharing just about the, like, because what I heard what so many grievers do is they put on this armor to be strong for everybody around them. And so what I hear you saying is that you wished you would have dropped that armor in front of them. Mhmm. More.
Amy Douglas: And as I said, our body is our greatest messenger, grief is trapped in our body for sure. And I know that what was happening when my body was sending me louder and louder messages. And so finally, I started listening. I you know, before I just had the headphones on and the, like, the little of those things called the little blenders, you know, it’s like, I gotta move forward. Everything’s forward. Everything’s forward, I’ve gotta show them, you know, I’ll take on all their pain, so they don’t have to feel it. You know? And that wasn’t the answer either. But yet, at the time, it was the solution that felt most aligned until it didn’t And then once I started doing my own work and sharing it with them, you can hear it in them, you know, my coaching, what was what was happening for me, I started embodying and then there’s that ripple effect and my son just latched onto it like, Thank goodness. My daughter was a little more resistant. She’s got a little more energy in her design than I do, and she’s like, I know more than you, and they both do. Which is brilliant. My kids are my greatest teachers by far, but we were all open to hearing each other, giving each other the space to share who we were, what we were feeling And I’m grateful for that. And I’m grateful for the messages my body kept giving me. Otherwise, I would have kept up the facade that I’d built so well for myself, very intentionally because I didn’t want anybody to think that there was anything wrong. I’m fine. Everything’s fine. I’m always fine. I’ve had a friend tell me before. I never know if you’re happy. I never know if you’re sad. I never know if you’re hurting. Because you just show up and you listen in such a beautiful way. And I remember thinking, I don’t wanna do that anymore. I can be unapologetically me. That’s just the language that I knew when I left my corporate life. That’s that’s what I was choosing.
Victoria Volk: Which brings me to a question of when do you feel like it’s the manifestor type, and we’ll get into the types maybe yet in this episode or maybe not. If not, we’ll we’re gonna do a part two, friends. We’ll do a part two, and it’ll be all about human design because I love that rabbit hole, but do you feel like for a manifestor specifically anyone listening as a manifestor type, which you can find on or can you find that out?
Amy Douglas: My body graph is probably the easiest one. So and you need to know your birth time, hour, and minute your birth location, city and state, country, whatever that is, and then obviously your date of birth. Most people know that one without question. But that time and the location could be a little tricky. So those are just three important things. You plug them in and butter bing, butter boom, it spits it out for you.
Victoria Volk: So if you find out you are a manifestor, my question is, do you feel like it’s a manifestor thing that we really don’t allow ourselves to be held. We really don’t allow ourselves. Like, is it a manifestor thing? Do you see?
Amy Douglas: So much. So much. And we have what’s referred to as a closed protective aura. So we’re not easily read. We’re very mysterious. So because we’re not easily read and I had built a facade for myself that no one could see, I was impenetrable. Right? Like, unless I was sharing. And oftentimes now that I do understand that I am really, really meant to share my emotional experiences It helps others. That unlocked such as, like, wait. People wanna know this. People want to hear what I’ve been through. I thought that’s what I did for others. It just And I think, our aura doesn’t empower us to Like, we kind of we’re, like, a little bit off the, you know, like, I’m not sure. A little standoffish. Is this safe? Do I wanna be a part of this? You know? Or oh my goodness, is this gonna be exhausting once I get in? We don’t have the same level of energy as, seventy percent of our counterparts. So I think I’d always been juggling some of that, but just dismissing it, which is why my body got louder and louder, you know. A lot of adrenal fatigue, that’s not uncommon at all with manifestors by any stretch. Not knowing when an up is enough. We do not have that sacral energy that our counterparts do. And so and then you combine that with my open heart, which is, again, lots of human design lingo, but you put those two together and we just we don’t know enough is enough. And I sure didn’t, I was just like, nope, I have to do this. I have to, that’s just the way that and then I started softening and I was like, oh, no, I don’t. And I love my life so much differently than I did before. I love myself differently before because if I woulda loved myself, I wouldn’t have had to build a facade. Right?
Victoria Volk: Mhmm.
Amy Douglas: Because I wanted people to see me a certain way. And now I don’t care what people see because I know who I am and the right people I will be attracted to and will attract back to me to them.
Victoria Volk: Do you feel like there is a period of time where you were looking back at all of your friendships and relationships with people on just thinking how not fake but not authentic. Because if you’re not showing up, knowing who you are, knowing what you bring to the table, understanding what your desires and needs and wants are, you’re showing up for whatever that person wants you to be. So there’s no truth and honesty in that relationship.
Amy Douglas: Actually, I have put a lot of thought into this and a lot of my learning through design. So I have an undefined g center like you. And we’re really we are chameleons and we’re meant to’s, I did have someone say to me once, cut your suit different with your corporate people. And then with your kiddos, you’re so different. And then when you hang out with us, group, you’re so different. We’re meant to. We’re meant to because we’re trying those things on and then allowing ourselves to is this kind of like, which how do I wanna mold and what do I wanna do? So I’m grateful for the years. I allowed myself to do that. I think it felt right in the moment. I think there were things that I was craving that I thought that I could get with some of the connections I was in. And once I started doing my own growth journey that really started in twenty sixteen, I was realizing the toxicity in some of the choices once I was learning more about myself. But until then, I really do feel like my connections were genuine, but I don’t know if they were for migrate or good. I think it was because, oh, they needed something from me. And I felt good about giving that. And while I still get to do that in relationship that I have, that’s not what I’m most drawn to anymore. And a lot of my growth led to letting go of people in my life. And thankfully, I’m designed that it is relatively easy and comfortable for me, and I know it’s not for the other, but it’s not mine to carry. The longer I hold onto it, the more I’m resisting what’s really meant for me. And that has become an easier and easier process for myself, especially learning my design, and the connections that I crave and desire, but I didn’t realize how much I loved my own alone time. That’s very, very common for manifestors too.
Victoria Volk: I very much do too. Mhmm. So what was the role of fear in all of that life experience as you were going through all of that. And can you speak to, like, fear in our human design just a little bit? In your human design and just.
Amy Douglas: Yeah. So a lot of the fear is housed in the spleen, which is one of the nine centers that builds the body graph of human design. I have a defined spleen as to you. And so what when we have something and I’m using that word defined, It just means that we have consistent access to the energy that’s in that center. And the spleen is very instinctual, it’s very primal. Right? The bears coming, I must run. Okay? Let’s face it folks. We don’t have a lot of bears chasing us anymore. But we still are wired to feel that fight or flight. And I think the only fear that I feel like I have connected to in my life. Like, last year, I was living in Florida, and hurricane in came. And I had no fear for it whatsoever. And I was sitting in the eye for hours and everything around me was completely destroyed. I never even lost power, I lost connection with the outside world because we lost wifi, which was devastating for my six-month pregnant daughter. And I wish I could take that back because she has an undefined spleen. So what that means for her, she doesn’t have a consistent way to process that fear. And so it’s like, fear of not enoughness, fear of rejection, fear of repeating past mistakes. There’s a lot of that that’s housed in that center where I don’t feel a lot of that. I think my fear way back before I started my own journey was, what will everyone else think? And now I couldn’t care less, or how am I gonna screw up my kids? That’s the heaviest fear in the world. Is how can I make this easier for my children? Because they didn’t ask for this. And I’m an adult and they’re not emotionally mature enough to navigate this. Quite frankly, I wasn’t even sure if I was. Because as you heard me say early on, I just buried it down. I’m a thirty five year recovering binge eater. They never knew I was doing that. Hell, my ex-husband never even knew, but I was a binge eater. Right? I know how to hide things. But what was I hiding from? Basically, myself. And so I am thankful I’m also in my profile, I’m three in human design. And so I am just like, hey, run out there and see how this works or not. And I have done that my whole life. And I don’t have a lot of fear with like, when I moved to Florida, everybody was like, oh my god. You’re leaving everything behind. I’m like, I know is it great? They’re like, you don’t know anybody. I’m like, nope. Do you even know where you’re gonna live? Yes. I secured that online, like everybody else in the world, I have a lot of that energy about myself anyway, and I don’t go into with, like, I think that contract with myself in July of twenty eighteen has helped a lot in my journaling of flushing out any limiting beliefs that somebody might label as fear. Mhmm. And I just don’t I don’t like fear and excitement or born in the same place in our body. It’s our mind that labels it as such. And so I choose excitement. That’s what I choose.
Victoria Volk: I love that. One thing we talked about before we started recording was because you have so much loss. This is where I’m, like, where do we start? Right? And I had my losses starting very early on in my life. I was a young child. And so I feel like I’ve gotten the worst part kind of over with. Hopefully, I mean, I pray that that’s the case. Right? But before we start recording, we were talking about how we both share that. Thirty five, thirty six channel. It’s that channel of emotional experiences. And I also have what did you say? I had the incarnation cross. There’s I mean, we keep going too.
Amy Douglas: Yeah. You have thirty five in your cross. So that it’s definitely a part of, you know and thirty five is more of that element of, like, desiring change and the thirty six part of it is that crises energy. It’s like something chaotic. There’s emotional turbulence in your life. And so then that kind of pushes you to the throat center of like, okay, what can I change? The biggest part of that wave, that abstract wave is what that thirty five, thirty six is referred to. It’s very emotionally volatile, is our expectations. And think about what we have in the world of expectations. Right? Of others, of the world, of our own experiences, etcetera. And this piece of my design has been absolutely life-changing for me to connect with because I didn’t realize how much chaos I was creating my own life by having these expectations out there. I cannot have expectations of others or anything that is outside of my air coating control because I want control in the highest vibration. Control is a core wound for manifestors. We don’t wanna be controlled, and we don’t wanna be controlling. And I’ve been on both sides of those that fence for sure. And so when I learned this about myself, it’s like, oh, I can drop the expectations. Like, my partner would say something to me and I hung onto it like it was the law. We were doing this. Right? Like, oh my gosh. And then when we didn’t because he’d forgotten he’d even said it, I’m like, I made it mean something about me. Like, I wasn’t worthy, I wasn’t deserving, and of course, or going back to that attachment. Well, I didn’t need it anyway. Right, that avoidant attachment. I didn’t want that anyway. And now, I just have a lot more clarity. And when he does have all these ideas and suggestions, It’s just like a little fluffy cloud and I let it float on by and I don’t hang on to it like the law. It’s more of like wouldn’t it be nice if? Type of energy, and then any expectations I have on myself, I really want to check-in on those. Am I being hard on myself again? Am I trying to prove something? I have nothing to prove. I’m enough exactly as I am. I have enough. I know enough. I am enough. And that has been a critical part of my journey. And then sharing that with others, like, especially if I see someone like you, Victoria, who has this wave. It’s like, what are we expecting? And who are we expecting it of? And how can we allow ourselves to release a lot of that? Because then it will really, you know, that way it won’t hit a way that it could if we have these expectations. And then just noticing that we’re meant to share those experiences as well it really is a game changer for a lot of people. We’re not meant to just harbor them ourselves at all. And that was that was something that I just I thought was unheard of. Why would anybody else wanna hear my trials and tribulations? Well, because it invites others to share those too, and that’s how we move through these things. And we move grief and disappointment and disgust, all those things through us when we empower ourselves to talk about it.
Victoria Volk: And then you can weave in what kind of energy type you are. If you’d have the thirty five, thirty six. Yeah. So if you are a manifesting generator or a generator, like, go do some exercises, go work out, like, just do some high impact stuff, right, to get those emotions out. But as a manifestor, is it the same? Like, to do the same? Like, what’s
Amy Douglas: So it really depends on the mechanics of your design. I have a defined route, and my route is connected to my spleen. And so that has me being someone who is really meant for movement, but any emotionality find your practice. Some people it might be meditation, just really quiet stillness. Right? Some people it might be really cathartic, like just especially as manifestors. I had my podcast co-host get me a damn it doll. You heard of those?
Victoria Volk: No.
Amy Douglas: Oh my gosh. So it’s this little doll that’s all fluffy and it’s like I can use it to hit things. Right? Or throw things or I can act as if I’m gonna pull its legs off And at first, I was like, oh, that’s so harsh, but it is so cathartic. Like, I invite clients to, like, get their anger out on pillows. And letting yourself move through it, throw access, like just move through it, you’re be surprised, dance it out, shake it off, whatever that practice can be, there are symptoms based on your mechanics of how you might do that, that anybody that is feeling something emotional, find a way to let yourself let it out holding it in is literally the worst thing you can do for yourself. But yet, that’s what I was taught Victoria. Like, nope. Suck that back in. Do not share that. And so then I stuffed it down. Stuffed it down. Stuffed it down.
Victoria Volk: And particularly as manifestors anger.
Amy Douglas: Yeah. Oh, yeah.
Victoria Volk: Don’t show your anger.
Amy Douglas: And this is my son who referenced, is an emotional manifestor. That’s something he said to me recently. Thank you mom for letting me witness your anger. Because instead of, like, my daughter had a very sensitive head, and that was not the most patient person, manifestors typically aren’t doing her hair in the morning before school, before I had to go to work, it’s like all of these things. And then she, you know, they would hurt, and I have to go slower. And more than one brushes were broken. Thankfully, I never used it on her, but I would throw them or smack them down on the counter to get my anger out. And it is important that we let ourselves do that. And my son who has a lot of that anger, certainly at his age too, like things aren’t going your way. Like, letting yourself let it out, fear of judgment or shame. There is no shame in those expressions. Let it out. It often has a great message. Right? We’re misaligned with something.
Victoria Volk: For sure. And I think about too, like, in that thirty five, thirty six, what’s been helpful for me is recognizing that when you were talking about expectations, like the grief that causes us, the self-suffering that we put ourselves through by, it’s like, like you said, when someone says something you take as you take them at their word. Right? And so we can find ourselves in these situations where, well, this is how it’s always been. It’s always been this way. We’ve always we’ve always been this way. It’s different now. You’re different now. Is it a self-practice? Or is this something to communicate with the people in our lives Like, does the human design help us find the language to communicate this?
Amy Douglas: Yes.
Victoria Volk: These things?
Amy Douglas: Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, a hundred percent. And again, going back to what the activations are in your design helps you share and empowers you to share your truth. And I think it’s a you said, is it this or is it that? And I wanted to say yes. Yes and both. You have to find your own practice. Wow. I just said, have to. You get to find your own practice. Right? It is important that you find a way to connect that you feel that release. You and I, Victoria, we will feel peace with that release. Right? We also will find peace we’re sharing it with others. It’s important based on our mechanics. Our connection from where all those emotions are coming from, from go straight to the throat. They are meant to be expressed. But somebody else’s mechanics in their design might look different, and so I can help invite them in the ways that they can allow and empower themselves to get through that too. But I do believe, especially in this instance for you and I, it’s a hundred percent both. I don’t think people are meant to just keep things in. That’s not safe. And I don’t care if it is an expression of like they do it in a journal or they they write a book or they have an audio file that they add to daily. I went in December of twenty two, so almost a year ago, I moved from doing a written handwritten journal to an audio app that I speak into. It transcribes it if I wanna see other words, but then I also get to listen to the emotionality of what I was feeling and experiencing. I was a very turbulent time of my life. I was thrust out of Florida where I was loving my life because my daughter was having a terrible pregnancy and I couldn’t not be there with her. I knew I didn’t want to go to Michigan in the winter. Are you kidding me? I didn’t want anything to go north. Right? And yet I did. And it was very I was holding her and her fear and her concerns and the status of her health and all of those things. And if I wouldn’t have created that practice for myself to let it out, journaling just felt like writing it down. I felt like I was filtering it. Felt like I was like, what if she found this? What if she came over and found what I was and in the audio file, it just felt safer trapped in my phone. I don’t know. You find the practice that empowers you to let it out. That’s what I’m offering.
Victoria Volk: I love that. And I think that’s a brilliant place to and this recording today. But first, I wanna give you an opportunity. And you’ve shared so much, and I feel like I do feel like I’ve glossed over so much of your losses because it’s a lot and I feel like each one of these could have their own episode. I mean, really, truthfully, I feel like I’m doing a disservice to you and your grief and to my listeners. I really do. Like, I feel like I’m shortchanging your story here. I’m giving emotional and I don’t know. I don’t know why. I mean, I know why because I’m emotional, but it’s so much. Yeah.
Amy Douglas: And yet, you give me the space to share. And this is what I’m meant to do. Right? This is what I’m meant to do. And I’m double-barreled, is what it’s referred to.
So both of my emotional waves go from my solar plexus to my throat, our emotional center to our communication center, And so one kind of softens the other. And so the way that I feel called to share it is empowering for me. And it’s like part of my deconditioning process because you gave me the space to share it. And if I don’t sound emotional about it, it’s because I’ve done the work to let myself say, it’s okay. I’ve been through it. I’ve navigated it. And now I am meant to share it so others can have their space. And feel empowered and safe and almost given permission to do it for themselves as well. So I don’t feel like it’s been glossed over. At all. Mhmm. I felt like you’ve given me the space to share. And if it helps someone else, oh, that feels so delicious to me.
Victoria Volk: To me as well. So thank you for sharing that. And I want to give you an opportunity to share how people can the different ways people can work with you. And we’ve got, the holidays are coming up. It’s we’re still in October yet, but the holidays are coming up, and you’d shared briefly or recorded recording. One of your offerings is a great Christmas gift, so please share how people can work with you and where can they find you.
Amy Douglas: So the best place to go, I’m not a big social media person. It’s not uncommon kind of in my manifestor world. But Amyadouglas.com is my website and that has and there’s a page for all of my offerings. If you’re curious about human design, the one that you’re referencing Victoria is that little audio file. I do about a twenty five minute mini reading. It is full of deliciousness. It’s like the first glance of everything I see about your design, and it’s so fun to share. I have a lot of moms that give it to their kiddos. Also, by the way, it’s so great for the moms to hear about their kiddos. Because we think how can they be mine.
We’re so different. Hello? We’re all different and we all choose. And it’s so beautiful to witness seen a mom and a child understand each other without those that hierarchical position. Right? So you can see that I also weave human design into a lot of the ways that I support others in coaching. And those offerings are on there as well. I have digital courses. So, and you can connect with me on what I think that’s probably just the best place. I will happily offer your listenership twenty five percent off of any reading. And I’ll give you a coupon code if you want me to have the coupon code be the name of your podcast. Does that feel
Victoria Volk: Yeah. Sure.
Amy Douglas: Most recorded for you. So The Unleashed Heart will be the coupon code
Victoria Volk: or grieving voices.
Amy Douglas: Grieving voices. Okay. The Unleashed Heart is your website. Right?
Victoria Volk: Yep. Yep.
Amy Douglas: Okay. So the coupon code will be Grieving Voices which would afford any of your listeners twenty five percent off of my human design offerings. And happy to connect. I even have, like, a little thirty minute call if you just wanna chat about what might be best for you. You can sign up for something like that as well.
Victoria Volk: Thank you so much for your time today, and your strength and your courage have I just adore you. I’ve gained so much I mean, I respected you before, but just hearing all that you’ve gone through and experienced, I really, as a manifestor to a fellow manifestor, like, thank you. Thank you for sharing. We are small, but we are strong in mighty in numbers. So the world needs you and the world needs all of us to understand ourselves better because like you said, it’s the ripple effects of that. And the work that we do within ourselves that changes the world. So Yeah. It’s pretty
Amy Douglas: Beautifully said. Yes. Thank you, Victoria. It’s been my absolute pleasure to be with you today.
Victoria Volk: And stay tuned for the part two to come out. We’ll get that scheduled soon because I really am excited to dive deep into all things human design. So until then, remember, when you unleash your heart, you unleash your life. Much love.
Childhood Grief, Divorce, Grieving Voices Guest, Grieving Voices Podcast, Growth, Healing, Mind/Body Wellness, Podcast, Spirituality, Where Are They Now? |
Phoebe Leona: Where Are They Now? | Magic in the Mess
SHOW NOTES SUMMARY:
This week, we catch up with previous Grieving Voices guest Phoebe Leona.
I had received a newsletter from Phoebe providing some updates that, I felt, would be a great episode to talk about the potential/impending loss of something she had built with love, sweat, tears, and probably plenty of finances, too.
Sometimes to grow and evolve, we need to close one door so another may open. Little did I expect that as this episode goes live, I feel we could record a third episode – stay tuned…
Back to this episode; this is for you if you are feeling stuck in a mess and having difficulty feeling the magic of the situation and your experience. As Phoebe shares in this episode: “When it is meant for you, you cannot mess it up.”
Be a fly on the wall of this conversation about growth, hard transitions, finding love again, and perhaps more importantly…finding yourself and the magic while in the mess. Or, as I like to say: the thick of the ick.
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Victoria Volk: Thank you for tuning in to grieving voices. I’m so happy that you’ve pushed play on this episode. And today is a where are they now episode. And I’m following up with my previous guest Phoebe Leona, where we originally had our episode. The first episode were recorded, went live on March twenty-ninth twenty twenty-two. It’s episode ninety two. And it’s titled, I’m only grieving Fridays. And it was all about her experience of losing her father and how that was the catalyst for all of the change that she described in that episode. And now we’re back for Phoebe 3.0 because there’s been a lot of change in transition and a new evolution to Phoebe’s life that I came across because of her newsletter. If you don’t know, when people become guests on my podcast, I often tried to keep up with them and whether that’s on social media or their newsletter or I think a lot of my guests become friends. And so And I’ve always been the person that, like, loves to, where are they now? Right? Like, the eighties pop stars of the one-hit wonders. I’ve always looking up, like, wonder what happened to them, you know. So today is the I wonder what happened with Phoebe. So here she is ladies and gentlemen. TV, what brings you to the podcast? Actually, I asked you to come back on the podcast. So let’s get that great. But I would love to have you share with me what has transpired since we last recorded.
Phoebe Leona: Oh, yeah. Well, first of all, thank you so much for inviting me back, Victoria. It’s such a joy to be with you, and I was before we press record, we were thinking about when was it that we sat together. And I think also, since then, you came on my podcast, so that’s where I was getting my dates confused. Where are they now? Where is Phoebe Leona now? Before, I think you said March twenty twenty-two. So my book did come out. We did talk a bit about that and how is about to be burzed out into the world. So the book was launched April fourth, twenty twenty two. So it’s been officially out for more than a year now. And it’s my little baby. It’s out in the world doing its thing. I did a bit of a book tour. It was on many podcasts. I also created this live experience called the rating experience where I brought together because when I and I don’t know if I talked about this that day, but when I was called to write the book, I knew it wasn’t just going to be a book, I knew it was something that was multidimensional.
Phoebe Leona: So with the medium of having dance being a primary part of my life and also was part of the book too because I talk about how dance really saved me and was a huge healing modality for me as I was going through all of the trauma and all of the grief throughout my childhood and my adulthood when I was dealing with the loss of my father and my divorce. So I wanted to bring that element to life. So I created this thing called Radian Experience, where it was a book reading essentially, but I was also dancing and I also had a friend who’s palette who brought some of the letters that I write to the emotions. She wrote she read them. Out as a poem as I danced, and we had a painter painting live behind me on a beautiful canvas and a sound healer. Creating a soundscape for everybody to be in that space with me those moments of my childhood, those moments of grief, and my adulthood. So that was a really powerful experience and we’re playing around with what more we can do with that. What else has happened with dear radiant one, my little baby, was nominated for best spiritual memoir by own times. Just recently, which I’m very excited about. Yeah. Very excited about.
Phoebe Leona: Thank you. And like I said, I’m just letting it do its thing. And I did talk a bit about my company, NoMad, which was birth from all of that grief of twenty thirteen when I went through everything. I always let NoMad guide me and I follow the breadcrumbs to where what it wanted to do next. And that’s how I feel with all of my creations, including Dear Radian one of, okay, I gave birth it. I put up my heart and soul into it. And now what does it want to become now that it’s out into this world? So I’m sure there’s going to be maybe another 4.0 version.
Victoria Volk: Guaranteed.
Phoebe Leona: That I have no idea. I have absolutely no idea what that will look like, but I’m that’s why I love what I do because I just lean into that mystery of what it wants to it’s a true co-creation. And I love having that space and that deep trust for the creation to just whisper to me or maybe shout at me if I’m not really listening. To say, okay, this is what needs to happen now. And yeah.
Victoria Volk: Okay. So because you brought up co creation and I hear a lot of intuitive vibes in what you’re talking about. Can you share with people how you tapped into that personally and any advice that you would give to others to who may not be getting the message. And then what is that not getting the message play out like in real life. Right?
Phoebe Leona: Oh, I’m getting massive chills in my body. So this is a very good question, and I think we could dig deep into this. So intuition, everybody’s born with us, this idea of intuition. We have these clear abilities. And clairvoyance is one that I think a lot of people know to be, you know, the mediums or the psychics and they have visions. And we don’t necessarily need to tap into it and identify as a medium or a psychic. But we have these clear abilities, which means that we are able to sense the unseen world and have communication with our souls, desire, our guides, our angels, whatever you wanna identify with. I’m not going to label them for you. You can choose if you align with that or not. But there is some sort of sense. So when you just spoke to me, I got chills in my body. So this is a clearability of clear sentence.
Phoebe Leona: So my physical body is giving me or an emotional body as well was giving me signs like, oh, yes, lean into this. When you do meditations and you and you visualize, right, when somebody guides you through a visualization and you can actually see what your future could look like or where that scenario that person is guiding you to or maybe you just do it on your own. That is you tapping into that clairvoyance. So you can dive in deeper and do some research if this is a new idea too. But when we have these abilities to tapping to the unseen world. This is the tapping on the shoulder. Listen, this might be something here you. This is your yes. This is your no. This is that gut instinct. Right? We have even in our vocabulary of I just knew it in my gut. Right? Or you know
Victoria Volk: Spidey sense.
Phoebe Leona: Spidey sense. Right? We have this nomenclature for it in our worlds. And this is really us tapping into our intuition. Now my personal story with intuition was and I might have spoken about this when we sat down the last time I was super intuitive. I had this ability to sense the energy in my space changing that made me afraid to really use my intuition because what I thought was I was creating the scenarios. So my father being, you know, dealing with his PTSD, he would go into flashbacks, and I would actually sense the energy change when he was triggered. So before he physically acted it out in our worlds, in our reality that we were sharing, I felt it. And so when I felt that energy and then I saw it play out in my physical world, I thought, oh my god, I’m crazy, and this is a curse. So I share that because some people might not have had that dramatic story, but they might have had a conditioning. Right? A lot of times as children, we’re being conditioned to not feel these intuitive spider senses, as you said.
Phoebe Leona: We might feel very emotional because we’re in a situation that is unsafe, but our parents said, oh, that you shouldn’t be acting out right now. You can’t act your fears out or your anxiety out right now, so we had to clamp down on these emotions that are part of our intuition as well as children. So there is that looking at it as possibly that it was a curse or maybe it was just programmed out of you.
Phoebe Leona: And so I think it’s really important to know that it’s not a bad thing if you don’t know how to tap into your intuition. This might just be part of your story. And so if you’re curious to be more intuitive and lean into it, there are ways of getting there. And a lot of the work that I do with the somatic work, if that’s a word that nobody knows out there, it’s really just being in the body, it’s being embodied. Being able to tap into your physical body, the sensations that I said, the emotions that are coming through, not just getting lost in your head because a lot of times in our head. It’s, you know, not really truly in our reality. That’s not really our intuition. The messages that come through intuition are usually down in our heart space. And these messages come through as a very like, whenever I feel them come through, it’s just one word or a short phrase, and it’s usually like a heartbeat or like a metronome, like, yes, yes, you got this, might feel like a mantra to me. It is that gut sense. Right? It is that just you feel it in your body. If it’s all up in your head and it’s, oh, like, the squirrel cut, like, the dog and the squirrel. Like, the dog is just, oh, scroll there. Scroll there. Right? If that’s what your mind is doing or you’re getting on cancer, we’ll have all of these different thoughts. That’s not usually your intuition. Right? That’s you just kind of up there letting,
Victoria Volk: Anxiety.
Phoebe Leona: Anxiety. Yeah. Anxiety.
Victoria Volk: Stress,
Phoebe Leona: Ego, Fear, all of it run the show. So I feel that when we can start to really drop down into just listening not needing to know the answer, and that’s what I think happens a lot is something feels uncomfortable. How do we fix it? Right? Let me look at all the things and let me write out the to do list and let me take a class or look at YouTube or Google it and find, go outside of myself. To find the answer. But when we really can just drop down, take a few breaths, understand again, maybe tap into your clear abilities if you know what they are or work on focusing on how to strengthen those. And listen to what’s coming through, whether it is that visualization or whether it is that feeling in your body or whether it is maybe a sound, maybe there is an audio message that you receive or a sound, like sometimes I have ringing in my ears. So there are a lot of ways to listen to your intuition.
Victoria Volk: Repetitive numbers, signs, those two.
Phoebe Leona: Yeah. Yeah. The Angel numbers I see Angel numbers all the time, like, the seven sevens are always in my world.
Victoria Volk: Actually, I had two podcast episodes, recent ones back to back that were the exact same time. Oh, both episodes. And I’m like, oh my gosh. Did I upload the wrong episode? Yeah.
Phoebe Leona: At the end on that today? Oh,
Victoria Volk: Oh,
Victoria Volk: So how did all of this play into the version of yourself that you’re stepping into now?
Phoene Leona: Yeah.
Victoria Volk: I’ve closed a business. I know I know what that process is like and it’s heart wrenching. Yeah. It’s painfully. It’s a painful awareness because you know how much blood sweat and tears you poured into something.
Phoebe Leona: Yeah.
Victoria Volk: And I’ll just say, from my own perspective, what I’ve come to know is that everything is just a stepping stone.
Phoebe Leona: Yeah.
Victoria Volk: And I didn’t fail in that business. You know, when I closed it, people I know people thought people even asked me, oh, we couldn’t make it or whatever because where I live and what I was charging or what have you and a lot of ego thoughts I had and myself too, but really it was I had to close that door for something else to come in.
Phoebe Leona: Yeah.
Victoria Volk: And I wrote my book, and then I started another business that wasn’t the right business. And I had a one chance off conversation with friend who I was working with, and she’s like, you know, for this one business, for my website. And she’s like, you wrote a book, didn’t you, about grief? I’m like, yeah, why aren’t you helping people in their grief? And I was like, Okay. Captain obvious. Good question. And so it was a question. You know, we can’t see the label from inside the jar, and so that one conversation has landed me talking to you again for a second time. It’s you know, so we have these moments in our lives that are truly transformative. Are what do they call those moments? What do they call it? A moment that changes everything.
Phoebe Leona: Like a pivotal.
Victoria Volk: Like a pivotal
Victoria Volk: Yeah. — pivotal point.
Phoebe Leona: Yeah.
Victoria Volk: So what happened? It’s changed. And how did that come to be?
Phoebe Leona: Yeah. Okay. I feel like I wanna go back again because I didn’t fully answer your other question. So I wanna finish that, which will feed into that. And I also wanna bring other people up to speed because they didn’t talk too much about that part of what shifted for me in terms of nomad. So in terms of the intuition, what you had asked me is, what would it look like if you don’t listen to it? And that leads us into this question really.
Victoria Volk: Right.
Phoebe Leona: It’s basically I like to think of it as this child Right? You’re the mom or the father of a child saying, hey, like, just tapping on your shoulder. Like, hey, I need a little attention here. That’s your intuition going, hey, this might not be the best thing to do or go for it or whatever. And if you’re not listening to it, it gets louder and louder and louder until it’s like full on temper tantrum. So in the external world, that looks like, oh, there’s a challenge. Now we don’t sometimes we go, okay, I’m ready to step into this challenge or I’m going to ignore the challenge. Right? We make our choices there. But if it’s I don’t wanna call it the wrong choice. But if it’s the choice that our intuition is guiding us because it knows. Right? It’s our higher self. It’s our soul. It can see your life from a bird’s eye view, and it kinda comes back down into this reality. And it’s like, oh, that’s a good move. Oh, that’s not a good move. Right? So it’s understanding, learning how to trust it. And so that little child that’s tugging on you is going, go this direction. Go that direction. Right? Because you can see that bird’s eye view. But if you don’t listen to it, yes, more challenges, more obstacles come up, and it turns into that temper tantrum.
Phoebe Leona: So where I am with NoMad, that’s the company that I started because of the year of grief. I wanted to have power back because in that year, January, my father died. March, my husband of fifteen years, said, I wanna end our marriage. That started the domino effect of losing my home, my dog, my physical health was at stake because of all the stress. And then the one thing that was still there that I had was my job that wasn’t filling my soul at all. And it was a choice that I had made because of these other two people that were no longer in my life And so that was the one thing that I said, I wanna have control over this. I want to live in alignment with my soul’s purpose, which was to really create a space for people to have a sense of belonging and purpose. And what are the two things that I did at the time while I hot yoga, that was the modality, and I wanted to travel more. So we started NoMad from this place of wanting to feel empowered in my life again and have these other aspects of myself be, you know, fueled again. So I started a retreat-based business. That’s what NoMad was.
Phoebe Leona: And as I said at the very beginning with Dear Radiant, why don’t I just kind of when I create something, I follow the breadcrumbs. So Nomad has been not just a retreat based business where I taught yoga was the modality, but it’s evolved into another modality that I created, a somatic practice called Movement one o nine, that was one of the bread crumbs. It turned into local community events where we had two hundred people at the summer solstice bring coming together in my Hudson Valley community here in New York, it turned into me leading yoga teacher trainings. It also turned into having to go online when we’ve all went into lockdown and figuring that part of the world out. So it evbed and flowed and morphed and shape-shifted in so many different ways. And I just leaned in and they said, okay, what do you wanna do now, baby? Now when I started it, the other aspect that I wanted in that part was I just had this vision that it was going to be with my partner. Like, didn’t have a partner. But I said, if you build it, he will come.
Phoebe Leona: And he did it. I mean, I had a couple of relationships that it could have potentially turned into that, but they all fell apart. Because I was still going through my own grief am I, you know, recovering from my trauma. So a lot of those relationships as beautiful as they were, they triggered a lot, and they got me to evolve further by leaving them and then doing the inner work.
Phoebe Leona: So here I am almost ten years, I guess it’s we’ll be celebrating nine years this year of NoMad, still no partner, letting it kind of morph into things, but I’ve also taken all these other branches, like Movement one o nine, like my book, Dear Radiant One, which can fit under the umbrella of NoMad, but I was noticing that my community was under the umbrella of just NoMad was getting smaller and smaller. And I just could’ve, like, you know, like, square peg triangle or whatever that scene is, a square peg, round hole, whatever. I was just like, oh, no. Just oh, this is all, NoMad. But now I think that there’s something within what I’ve created there and I don’t quite know what it is yet. I don’t know if it’s a book.
I don’t know if it’s Movement one o nine. It might be a combination of both. It might be something completely new. I said in the I think I said in the email that you read. I’m sort of mushy. I’m in the chrysalis. So I’m just letting it morph into what it wants to become right now. But I am also grieving. Right? Here we are talking about our grieving hearts. I’m grieving because it is my baby. I put my hot blood, sweat, love, heart, soul, tears into it. And I’m kind of like, was that a waste of time? And it isn’t. Yeah. Absolutely not. And I really resonate with what you were saying about other people saying, you didn’t make it or you failed. And I don’t feel that. I feel I feel frustrated because I want Nomad to I want I see no I always see my creations as little babies. I’m like, I want my baby to see this world and really be the vision that we had together. So I’m letting go of that idea of NoMad might not get to do the things that we had envisioned together. So yeah. I’m hearing I’m getting a little teary. I didn’t show up. But I do have a deep sense of trust that something else is being born, and I just I have absolutely no idea what it is. And I have a feeling just sitting here talking to you right now, Victoria, that magic is happening.
Victoria Volk: I got full body goosebumps like I if you could see my chicken zips right now.
Phoebe Leona: You’re chicken. I love it. Yeah. I mean, it might just be and I invite this for anybody out there listening. It might just be that you would you just spark something within me hearing your words. That an idea will come out whether it’s just I walk away from that and go, oh, actually, there’s some insight that I hadn’t seen yet. You’re a mirror for me. It might be that you and I are gonna get off of this and go, oh, wait, what about this and this and this and we collaborate or you connect me with somebody or there might be somebody listening here and go don’t let Nomad, go to bed. I love what you’re doing. Did they reach out to me or somebody else, you know, is inspired by our conversation and they go make a big life shift? Right? It doesn’t have to be related directly to me. It might be that somebody out there listening is going, oh, I’m going to listen to my intuition and yes, I need to leave that romantic relationship or that job or maybe it’s time for me to take the leap and make that new step into what I most desire. So who knows what universe is doing right now as you and I are speaking.
Victori Volk: We’re cocreating magic.
Phoebe Leona: Yeah. We’re cocreating magic right now, and the magic happens within the grief. Mhmm. It has to,
Victoria Volk: and I think because of it.
Phoebe Leona: Yeah. Yeah. I just got chills again.
Victoria Volk: Let’s just talk this out then.
Phoebe Leona: Yeah.
Victoria Volk: So what was the dream or is the dream that you had for so long? When you started NoMad?
Phoebe Leona: It was it was providing a space for people who were making transitions in their life. Because I had just gone through and was still going through it. Right? That year of grief, that year of great loss, that year of stepping into the unknown. And as I was doing it, a lot of people were applauding me saying, wow, you made a huge leap.
Phoebe Leona: And I didn’t see it as that. I saw it as, wow, I just got jot down. And I’m taking this one little thing where I might have some power and I was claiming it back. And I didn’t see myself as any sort of hero and that I was just trying to survive, but people were applauding me in that sense of wow, I wish I could do something like that. And I thought, you can, why not? You know, it came sick in nature to me, but I also know that that came from a lot of, you know, I know you had a similar childhood like having to deal with so much chaos. Chaos. Exactly that you don’t know that you didn’t know you don’t realize you had a choice. Right? It’s just like, yeah. This is just what my phase. You just keep going and roll with the punches. So when I started to see that something that came somewhat second nature to me doesn’t come for other people, I thought, well, what if I provide a space what if I take them out of their ordinary life, bring them to a retreats, yes, they get to see somewhere beautiful and you know, have beautiful food and make connections and see parts of the world that maybe they never had seen before, but also see parts of themselves that they had never seen before and tap into this new not a new version I shouldn’t say that, but this version of themselves that they hadn’t really tapped into in this reality or maybe this time and space. Right? Maybe they knew that was a part of them and they lost it along the way. But tap back into that and say you do have the power. If you’re in a toxic relationship, you have the power to leave it. If you are not living in alignment with your soul’s purse purpose. You can leave the job or you can make a big move, you know, physically across the world or whatever it is. It might also be really small and subtle but it changes your whole internal landscape. So that was the vision. And like I said, when you and I say this a lot of my teaching when you know your why, when you’re so aligned with your purpose. The Whats? Doesn’t matter. So, yeah, use the what of the retreats, but the “why” that creating space for people to have that greater sense of belonging so that they could make those transitions in their life was my why and has it has been my heartbeat these whole years since then. And so, yeah, the what is wants to be something new right now, and don’t know what that is.
Victoria Volk: You missed a question though.
Phoebe Leona: How how how how in terms of what how what
Victoria Volk: How do you envision it looking?
Phoebe Leona: Well, I think that’s where maybe that’s a good thing or maybe it’s a bad thing. I don’t have, like, specific visions of how I want it to look. I envision it as this is why I’m showing up in the world. And I trust that universal provide the how and the what. And maybe that is my downfall. And maybe you’re giving me some insight as to get clear focus, baby?
Victoria Volk: Because this is the thing. It’s like we’re always co-creating or always manifesting, but the universe doesn’t know what to manifest or co-create or bring to you. Yes. You’re not clear on the how.
Phoebe Leona: Yeah. Yeah. Story of my life, I think, Victoria.
Victoria Volk: Well, here’s the thing. So, like, I mean, I’m not intending to turn this into, like, some sort of, like, coaching session or anything.
Phoebe Leona: No. I love I get pre therapy today?
Victoria Volk: Here’s the things. When I think of you and when I think about everything that you’ve talked about and shared with me, in the audience, I feel like you’re a very grounding presence for people. Right? So, like, when people are around you and you have these retreats, feel like you are very grounding for them.
Phoebe Leona: Yeah.
Victoria Volk: But Phoebe grounded, how do you fly? Who encourages you and who is the person or what is it, what elements in your life are not, some people need accountability Some people just need a cheerleader. Some people need someone to challenge them. So I think so often too, like, especially helpers they have a hard time asking for help. Mhmm. And so am I am I nailing
Phoebe Leona: Oh, for sure.
Phoebe Leona: Oh, yeah. We got this. Yeah. And I mean, I know you want there was an aspect that you and I talked before, we press record that we’re gonna go to right now is this idea of love in my life. And That has been a huge game changer for me because, yes, going through so much chaos in my childhood alone, I did not know how to ask for help. And going through it again in twenty thirteen, it was the universe going, you need to ask for help Phoebe. And I did. I had to lean in to my family. I had to lean in to some people even strangers because I went to live in Costa Rica for a period of time and didn’t fluently speak Spanish, so I had to rely on strangers to help me. So it’s been a lesson the last nine years of ass asking for help, but still what you just saw, what you just reflected back of the ground in this, that was me going, I need to survive. I need to be really grounded here and not only because I’m a helper, like you said, and on hold space for other people, but I need to provide that for myself. And it was a little bit of survival mode. Right? Or a lot of survival mode. It was just holding on for dear life of okay. Gotta get my shit together.
Victoria Volk: Sols. Can I ask you? Yeah. They don’t mean to interject, but I just because so, like, it feels like because I know for me too, like, I had this grip or this hold. Right? On something, like, this is my identity. Right? Like, this is my identity. This is who I am. This is, you know, what who am I without this?
Phoebe Leona: Yes.
Victoria Volk: Do you feel like the only way to find out if that is where you want to continue to go as if just letting it go, like, backing away for a time.
Phoebe Leona: Yeah. I’m I think I’m in that, that’s why I’m in the chrysalis because it’s the that’s that mushy part. Right? When you’re in the crystal, well, from the little caterpillars in the chrysalis. Maybe we’re in the chrysalis too right now, who knows? But when we’re physically in that idea of the chrysalis, you become mushy. Right? You so you have to have that deep surrender, but at some point, right, when it’s making that shift to become the butterfly, there is the resistance. Mhmm. Like, it has to press out to create the wings. So there is this play between the deep surrender and that resistance of becoming the something new. And that’s really where I’m at right now of letting go of that identity. No man was my identity. For, you know, almost nine years now. And it is letting that go but there’s a there has to be a bit of resistance of like, okay. Well, how do you wanna see the next vision, right, and create that? And so that is, I’m not taking it as a cop out, but I am they I’m figuring out what the how is
Victoria Volk: The “How” that’s where we came back to is the “how”.
Phoebe Leona: Is the how because I’m kind of like, well, I was this for, you know, nine years. That’s all I knew to a certain extent because I was so had the death grip. Like, of Nomad and even though it’s letting it up and flow, but there was this has to survive because it was me proving to the world that I can do this I survived that horrible year and look what came from it, and I’m gonna use it. And you universe is telling me, like, you’re good. You’re so alive. You got this. You don’t have to just be in survival note mode now. You can actually thrive and spread your wings and fly. But I’m not quite there yet because I’m thinking, well, what is that gonna look like? And I guess maybe I’ll find out because the butterfly is not looking, maybe it is, and the, like, wings, like, oh, look at those colors. I’m not sure. Bright and then it just flies and it’s like, oh, okay. I’m crying. So I’m in that exploring process and there’s a little bit of playing with ideas, but also not being attached to them right now and seeing what what comes out of it. But I do wanna answer a little bit more, go a little deeper into this idea of the partner because I did have this vision of my partner is going to come in. But I had somewhat rules and regulation of what he was going to look like and be like because he was going to play a large role in my business, in my vision of them. And it’s really interesting because I’ve been completely single for six years now. Here I am doing my thing. I’m writing a book. I’m doing no mood or a pandemic. I’m still standing. And there were just all these challenges that came. Right? Everybody, I’m not saying I’m not doing a woe’s knee. Everybody has been gone through letting go of the old normal, right, going into that lockdown. There was a deep sense of grief during that period and letting go of your old identities, get letting go of old relationships, jobs, whatever. So I was in that at that time too and trying to figure out what NoMad wanted to be. And like I said, though, that was really when I was doing the square peg round hole and figuring out, well, let’s try to do online. You know, programs or membership or, you know, one on ones. And I was just, like, figuring out what it wasn’t. It just didn’t translate in the way of really being in person with people. And so, you know, the finances were not coming in, I was not receiving the abundance that made it not only thriving but not sustainable. I invested a lot in my book. You know, I did a hybrid publishing, which I am grateful for. I have really love the team of Grace Point, but it was a huge investment that I probably didn’t have, but I just going, it’s gonna pay off. It’s gonna pay off. And because I believe in myself and I even this morning, I was crying about that, my eyes are probably still a little puffy. And here I am about the the brink of letting go of my business and possibly declaring bankruptcy from putting my heart and soul in finances into it and steps in literally out of nowhere this man who just I met him and he’s my person. Like, there’s no doubt about it. And it’s it’s really quite beautiful how it happened because it somebody matched us up who I’ve known for twenty years and she’s known him his entire life since she was five years old. And just out of the blue said, hey, you two should meet. And it’s really quite beautiful.
Phoebe Leona: So I think that I did manifest the how of Nomad, but it also wants to become something completely new and different. And so maybe he’s stepping in because he does have a lot of similarities in terms of strengths that I don’t have that could really be a beautiful combination of what I envisioned originally. He even came to me with this vision that I didn’t put into his head. He said, I think we should do retreats together down the line. We need to do this. So it might turn into Nomad 2.0 after we reestablish our personal relationship and build that business or it might be that we need to co-create something completely new together. I’m not sure yet. And this is the first time I’m, like, publicly talking about this.
Victoria Volk: Well, I got my chicken zits again when you were talking about it. So it feels like truth to me.
Phoebe Leona: Yeah. Yeah. It’s kind of wild. So
Victoria Volk: Is that crazy? I mean, just sit just for a moment. Like, just I mean, we don’t do this enough. Like, just really reflect back. Like, life is crazy. Like, you just cannot anticipate the amazingness that can happen. Right? We don’t It’s like you will you think when you’re in the thick of the icky? The thick of the neck. And you’re in the thick of the neck. You can’t even fathom that there can be brighter days ahead. Yeah. You know, I had a client, one of my first clients, actually, after they became certified as a grief specialist, his life has just exploded. I worked with him for a time. He went through grief recovery with me and stuff. And, you know, at the time, like, his he was struggling in relationships and trying to get his business going and he’s a designer. He does — Mhmm.
Victoria Volk: Now he’s into purses. He designs purses. Ended up on the red carpet. He’s, like, on the own network, the Detroit oh, love in Detroit or something like that? Remember the show. It’s a reality show. Like, it’s just crazy. How his life has just exploded. And he said in a post, he said something to the effect of, imagine living each day. You think today is the best day. But imagine if even tomorrow is better. Like, you have no idea. Yeah. Like live like tomorrow is gonna be even better.
Phoebe Leona: I love that. I’m I think this episode is called full-bodied chills.
Victoria Volk: Oh, yeah. That’s good.
Phoebe Leona: Because I just kept getting chills as you’re speaking about this.
Victoria Volk: Okay. Well, there is a true crime podcast called Full Body Chills.
Phoebe Leona: Okay.
Phoebe Leona: You might have to call you know what? Yeah.
Phoebe Leona: Play around with that because you and I just keep balancing our what did you call chicken zips? Chicken zips.
Victoria Volk Yeah. Chicken zips of truth.
Phoebe Leona: Oh, sure.
Victoria Volk: People would be like, chicken zips of truth. Why? I gotta listen to that one. Yeah. Maybe that’s a go.
Phoebe Leona: There we go. That’ll stop them in their tracks.
Victoria Volk: So what I hear is that you are very curious and excited about not knowing what’s to come in a way. Yeah. And yet surrendering to the how and just letting it unfold. But yet, at the same time, this is where I think, you know, you are a very grown in presence and maybe this gentleman that it’s come into your life, like who’s kind of been under your nose. Right? Like, because he was with the he was he’s a friend of a friend. Mhmm. Had you met him before?
Phoebe Leona: No. Never lived with me. We have so she was a Pilates client of mine here twenty years ago, and I knew her socially too. She even came to my wedding. So I had been to a couple of her parties, and so we have looked back and said, were you at that party? Were you at the upper end? We don’t quite know yet because of this so long ago. But, yes, very much under under each other’s nose. But we weren’t ready yet. And that’s something that I wanna speak into too is
Victoria Volk: Yes. Please.
Phoebe Leona: When when you are ready, the universe makes it so clear and says, get this is it. This is you’re ready now. Right? Here you go. Like, your client. Your client had to go through all of that grief and he was trying, he was showing up and doing his work. Like, ugh. And then all of a sudden, it just clicked. And now his purses on red carpets. And I swear I truly believe in that. And I’ve I have seen that in my own personal life. I’ve seen that evidence in the external world and everybody else in other people’s lives that when it’s meant to be for you, you cannot mess it up. It is just there. And that’s how I felt for this relationship. It was just we were not ready for each other and we’ve had many conversations because he’s done a lot of work on himself if he’s done, you know, he’s a life coaches while he wrote a book too. And it’s even funny when we see that our books, our covers, our same coloring, like, same kind of branding, very similar format. He shares a lot of his own childhood trauma and, yeah, maybe a guest for you, by the way. But yeah.
Phoebe Leona: So it’s just so funny because we’re laughing at each other. Like, we’ve been walking side by side but just weren’t we weren’t ready for each other yet. We weren’t ready for the relationship that we both want wanted for so many years, but we weren’t emotionally ready for it yet. We had to recover through the trauma to a certain extent and our own grief so that we could be ready. Right? He if I had met him six years ago when I had my last relationship, he would have been triggering all my traumas right and left, and I would have said goodbye, just like I did to the other two, man. And so I had to do this in our work for it to show up. And I say that because it doesn’t have to be a romantic relationship. It’s whatever you desire right now. It will show up when you have to do the work, though. That kinda like, it’s that balance of the doing and the being. Right? Because I think that in our world, we get too much in one direction. It’s the very western world of just do do do and have the strategy and check the things off the list. And, yeah, if you hustle and hustle, I played that game for so long and so many things didn’t happen in that world for me because I wasn’t allowing there that to be that surrender into that being. But on the flip side of that, if we’re just, you know, love attraction, I believe in it. I truly believe in it. But if you just do that and kinda lean back and not do any of the work, the thing isn’t really going to be truly yours. I mean, you might see it but if you’re not actually showing up and doing the inner work, going through your grief, going through recovering from your trauma, whatever it is that’s your karma and your dharma. Right? Karma is the lessons we enter into this world and the dharma as you shifted into your purpose. If you’re not actually playing with those two, yeah, those things might come on your radar and you might not see really truly see them or they might just float on by because they’re not you’re not aligned with them yet. So it is that play of the doing and the being?
Victoria Volk: You said something, and I’m gonna say, I’m I had a client, she asked me, Everyone else says you have to do the work. I’d get so annoyed when I’d hear that. Do the work. You gotta do the work. Well, what’s the work? And after she went through a group recovery with me, she’s like, I get it now. This is the work. Like, this is the work. So in your mind, what is the work?
Phoebe Leona: That’s a good question. For me, it’s awareness. I really truly believe awareness is the transformation. Now awareness can look different for people. So awareness might be that you need to be aware of your three d reality? Like, what is actually physically happening in your relationship? Or what is happening in your bank account? Or what is happening in this toxic situation at your job? Right? But also, it’s awareness of what’s happening in your mind, what’s happening in your physical body. How can you listen again to the spidey sense. Right? When you’re in those external relationships with the world and your body’s going, uh-uh, right, you have to bring your awareness to that so that you tap into that intuition. That’s really what I see the work is just being able to listen So it’s kind of funny that to do the work is actually sitting back and listening. That’s step one is that listening and the awareness, but then there is the, okay, now I need to take action from that place. Right? So maybe I do need to get a job that’s going to help you pay the bills or maybe I do need to leave that relationship or maybe we need to go see a relationship therapist. Or whatever it is, it’s actually taking the action and doing the work physically doing the work. And then there is the surrender., of okay, letting go and saying this isn’t working or I deeply trust that it is working, but I don’t see that. Evidence yet. Right? So that’s level three, step three of the work. I’m sure there are others, but those are the three that I feel are necessary in everything as I just talking off the cuff.
Victoria Volk: I love it.
Phoebe Leona: Yeah.
Victoria Volk: I love it. I love this conversation. And I wanna give you an opportunity. To share anything else that you would like to share?
Phoebe Leona: Let me think. I feel we should yeah. Let’s talk a little bit more about grief because that is your podcast. Mhmm. And to know if somebody is out there right now who is grieving a relationship or grieving possibly the loss of their own business or whoever they are right now to allow yourself to simply be in that chrysalis. Allow yourself to get mushy. Allow yourself to I love what you at you pressed me to do is imagine the how or the what or the whatever it is that drives you. Right? It could be the how, it could be the why, it could be the what. But whatever it is that’s gonna just be your heartbeat for a little while. Right? If you’re in that grief space and you don’t know what is to come, find some sort of heartbeat for you that’s gonna get you up every morning and really build a relationship with physical support in your life Right? It might be one person, it might be a community, but then also what has really been a huge piece for me is trusting the divine, the universe, God, guides, angels. Whatever it is that you resonate with whatever word resonates with you and energy that resonates with you in that end unseen world because there is and energy. There are many energies around us that we don’t see and maybe not feel, but they are here and they are on our side and they are flying high above us, seeing a bird’s eye view. And I was in a session, if I don’t mind if you don’t mind me sharing really quickly I was in a, like, a call with some a group yesterday, and you probably have heard this. And I feel like, actually, now I’m saying that you might have even spoken about it, but the idea of the two footprints, two sets of footprints talking to God and saying God, why weren’t you there for me? There were times that I only saw one footprint and I was walking in a long loan, and God said that was because I was carrying you.
Victoria Volk: It’s a footprints in the sand. It’s actually
Phoebe Leona: Footprints in the sand. Yeah. And I just wanna remind everybody because that’s something that I needed to remember for myself is when we’re going through those moments of grief. There is someone carrying us even in those deepest darkest moments, in those mushy moments, in those messy moments. There is something here for us and to just deeply trust and find a way to build that relationship to trust again.
Victoria Volk: And someone is caring. Mhmm. And I think that’s what a lot of people forget. It’s like there are people that care you just have to allow yourself to be cared for.
Phoebe Leona: Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. Oh, that’s a hard one for us, helpers.
Victoria Volk: True. Yeah. It is. What a beautiful way to tie up this episode, I think. Where can people find you now if they’d like to reach out to you and connect with you?
Phoebe leona: That is an interesting question, Victoria. I’m not sure where I’m going. Social media, I’ll just say first of all, social media I’m on Instagram it’s my name @phoebeleona.love and Facebook. And then I do have my website, so I would say right now, they could go to phoebeleona.com that’s where you can generally see what I’m physically doing in the world. Then I have my thenomadcollective.org and Movement 109. Those are also websites, but they’re all linked together. Who knows if they’ll be there in a couple of months? Maybe they got, you know, floated away. Maybe they’re coming back in a bigger way. We don’t know yet. But if you find my name Phoebe Leona, you’ll find what’s happening now. And I think that’s a great way to, like, What is that girl doing? Let’s see.
Victoria Volk: We might have a Where are they now? Three. Yeah. Maybe in a year.
Phoebe Leona: Yeah. Yeah. And I just wanna acknowledge you too because, you know, what you just said of being cared for is you did respond to that it was, you know, somewhat desperate email of, like, I don’t know what’s happening guys. Let’s see. And you were one of, you know, a few that responded immediately and I saw that you cared, and I know that you care so deeply for the people that you help. And the listeners that you show up for. So I just I wanna take a moment to acknowledge that. So thank you.
Victoria Volk: Thank you. Sometimes I need that reminder too, and I’m looking at her clothes. Yeah. Yeah. Since this is my labor of love, For sure.
Phoebe Leona: Yeah.
Victoria Volk: But it’s been a great joy. And that’s why I continue doing it. You know, it doesn’t put food on my table, but it fills my heart. It’s my soul food.
Phoebe Leona: Mhmm. Exactly.
Victoria Volk: Yeah. Find your soul food people. Find your soul food.
Phoebe Leona: Yes.
Victoria Volk: Alright. Well, thank you so much for joining me again. On kind of short notice, like, this was like, hey, wanna come back? Yeah. Let’s do it. Alright. I love that.
Phoebe Leona: You know, we had to do it while it was still mushy because, yeah, it wouldn’t have been that exciting if I was. Everything’s fine now. You know, hindsight.
Victoria Volk: I mean, that’s the beautiful thing behind you. Right? But when you’re in the thick of the ick. Right? The thick of the ick. And it’s not it it doesn’t have to be it doesn’t have to be this negative bad energy. Right? That we like, this drudge of it certainly, it doesn’t feel good. Yeah. But with for all the reasons that you said, it’s like lean into the awareness. How is this making me feel? What do I wanna see for myself in the future? What do I want for my life? Yeah. You know, these deeper questions that we are so afraid to ask ourselves Yeah. You know, one of my favorite segments on Saturday Night Live was deep thoughts by Jack Handy.
Phoebe Leona: Oh, yeah.
Victoria Volk: I mean, I was, like, ten, eleven, twelve, you know. Oh, wow. Because I’m aging myself now. This is when Saturday nightlife was, like, really good. But Yeah. But yeah.
Will Ferrell, deep thoughts by Jack Handy.
Phoebe Leona: Was it I don’t think it was Will Ferrell. It was before Will Ferrell’s time. It was because I actually met him in a certain week already. No. It was before Will Farrell.
It was oh my god. I know who it is, but he’s not in my brain right now.
Victoria Volk: I thought it was the same guy that was played Bob Ross.
Phoebe Leona: It was Al Franklin.
Victoria Volk: Oh, yeah. Are you sure?
Phoebe Leona: Now that I said, and I’m afraid I am wrong, but hold on, Okay. We’re good we’re gonna fact-check.
Victoria Volk: I’m you know, I have a saying, like, with my friends. I’m like, I’m gonna get a t-shirt that says, Google that shit.
Phoebe Leona: Yeah. I think it was before Will Ferrell’s time. And I do feel I see his face. And Al Franklin was on Saturday Night Live? Yes.
Victoria Volk: Phil Hartman.
Phoebe Leona: Phil Hartman. What’s? Okay we both we both lost
Victoria Volk: Wait. No. Deep okay. Well, Jack Handy was an actual person. Learn something new today.
Phoebe Leona: That makes sense.
Phoebe Leona: Yeah. Yeah.
Phoebe Leona: So they made affirmations before is, like, a big thing in our world at which I thought those.
Victoria Volk: Okay. It looks like I have to do some writing.
Phoebe Leona: You’re gonna have to fact-check and do a follow-up for the listeners here.
Victoria Volk: I see a connection between Phil Hartman and that’s segment, but I can’t like, I would have to do some reading. Yeah. Anyway, I will find it. Anyway, I digress. Have a beautiful rest of your day, and listeners, thank you for tuning in. And I hope this episode was helpful. And if it was, I hope you share it or leave a review, five stars if you feel so inclined. And remember, when you unleash your heart, you unleash your life, much love.
Divorce, Grieving Voices Podcast, Podcast, Q&A, Widowhood |
Q&A | When Is It Too Soon To Start a New Relationship?
SHOW NOTES SUMMARY:
Victoria Volk: Hey. Hey. Hey. Thank you for being here and for pushing play on this episode. Today, I’m going to share a Q and A episode about a topic I think Tom Dickerry and Harry and their mother has an opinion about, including myself, which I had personal experience with this as a child, and knowing what I know now. I know why. What happened, happened?
Victoria Volk: But anyway, let me get into the question and into the answer, and I’ll share a little bit more on my personal experience with this question. But today’s question is, “When does it too soon to start a relationship after the death of your spouse or significant other?”
Now, there’s no correct air quotes correct answer to this question, but there’s all kinds of estimates. There’s even an absurd mathematical equation that you’ve maybe heard that says that you need to wait a year for a year that you were married or with that person.
Victoria Volk: So along with our personal experiences, is that time is not the key factor when a person should start dating after the death of someone they love. We know that time doesn’t heal emotional wounds, and we also know that many people have waited a year or two or five or ten or even twenty years after their significant other has died. And this next relationship still failed. And the majority of those failures were not necessarily because the two people didn’t belong together. It was that the widow or the widower or the person left behind was not emotionally complete with their significant other who had died. And absent that kind of completion, the new relationship is almost guaranteed to fail. So the other danger is that a person can feel, air quotes, feel ready to date or start a new relationship relatively soon after the death. It will actually say estrangement too. I mean, someone doesn’t have to die. You can just relationship can end or you can become estranged. But I’ll just say death for clarity and just for conciseness of this episode, but I’m also talking about those strange relationships as well or those that have ended of their significant other, but that feeling can be predicated on loneliness. And other factors, not necessarily because they are emotionally complete with their significant other who died.
Victoria Volk: So let me say that again because there was a lot of information in there. So even though you can feel ready, for a new relationship, that feeling can be predicated on loneliness and also other factors. But not necessarily because you are emotionally complete. So the time to start a new relationship is only after, air quotes after, having taken actions to discover and complete what was left emotionally unfinished in the earlier relationship. And you’ll notice that I’m not saying any time frames at all, and that’s not to say that a week after your significant other dies or the relationship ends that you should start dating, it’s meant to indicate that it’s the actions of completion that will dictate when you are ready to start a new relationship. So that you don’t mix the old relationship in with the new one and sabotage it in advance. So it’s only after you take grief recovery actions that you’ll have a clearer sense of whether or not you’re ready and truly only you the person left behind can answer that for yourself.
Victoria Volk: But it’s, again, we can easily confuse that feeling of being ready. And yet when we start that new relationship, we’re seeing the same patterns repeating themselves. And why is that? It’s because we haven’t become emotionally complete with that previous relationship. And so as you’ve listen to this podcast for any period of time, you’ll see and you’ve heard and understood by now, that we drag our baggage with us from the past into the present, unless we look at it, unless we unpack that baggage and unless we look at that luggage that we’ve been dragging around. This is why when people say, I don’t have to dig up the past. I don’t have to look at the past. I’ll just forget it. I’ll bury it. I’ll sweep it under the rug. This is why these patterns keep repeating in your life. You can have failed relationship after failed relationship because you’re not consciously aware of what those patterns are. And the only way to become aware of what those patterns are that are repeating is to understand them, is to have awareness about them. Where did they come from? Where did they originate? Nine times out of ten, I’ll even say ten times out of ten, it originated from your family of origin. Because when we are our backs are against the wall and we’re feeling challenged and we’re feeling like we’re in an uncomfortable position, we will resort to what we know in those situations. And what we’ve learned in those situations in the past is how we’ll respond in the present and in the future unless we have an awareness and acknowledge that the past is influencing our present and then we choose new tools and new awareness to change those patterns of behavior. And this is why grief recovery is very much an educational process as much as it is a transformative one.
Victoria Volk: And I say grief recovery because that’s the program that I facilitate in my program do grief differently. So you’ll hear you would have heard both terms used interchangeably. But that is essentially what I’m talking about when I talk about do grief differently is grief recovery as well as the Youmap, which is another component of do grief differently, which answers the question when you’re kind of when I just had a consultation just a while ago and that I finished and what you learn through grief recovery. It’s like you’ve addressed all this grief and you’ve addressed all this stuff from the past. Now what? Well, the Youmap is the now what? It’s how you move forward. It’s becomes your lighthouse for moving forward. Which is why both programs together are so transformative and impactful on people’s lives.
Victoria Volk: And so coming back to this question, my personal experience in this is that As a child when my father had passed away, my mother quickly remarried within a couple of years. She was in within a couple years, she was in a new relationship and remarried. And at the time, there was no communication about why that was or, like, I wasn’t privy because of my age, I suppose, to why my mother was in my mind, jumping into another relationship so quickly when I really didn’t even have personally an opportunity to grieve my dad here on thrown into another huge change that we didn’t even talk about. Like, I was no I had no part of that conversation. It was, this is what’s happening, and you just accept it. And in my mother’s defense, she was doing what she thought was best. Like, she wanted she herself was lacking the confidence and security that she felt she needed. To raise my brother and I who he was a teenager and I was eight at the time, nine, ten going, getting to those pre-teen years. And she felt I believe that she needed that support financially and emotionally and just that companionship and her and my dad were married for seventeen years when he passed. She thought they were gonna grow old and die together. And so and she was very young. I mean, she, you know, my father was forty four. She was forty three. When he passed away, still young. And you just don’t expect that when you’re that young. And while you have young children, and I know many people listening to this probably are themselves in this situation, or you were a kid that was in this situation where your parents remarried or got into another relationship.
Victoria Volk: And so I think knowing now what I know about grief and the why behind without my mom even having to say it. Right? Because we have not had that conversation, but specifically about why, although she is kind of sprinkled in what I just said the fact that she didn’t know what to do. Well, how am I supposed to raise two kids on my own and I have this house and the law needs to be made and what if repairs need to be made? And I think she was just very overwhelmed with all of that and felt like she needed somebody to support her. In moving forward. And was he the right person for her? I don’t know, but that marriage failed. Right? And I think it’s because the reasoning for going into it was not the right reason. Right? Like but I think everything’s learning. Everything is learning. And he did end up passing away of emphysema quite a few years ago. But he was a big part of my life in all my teen years. He taught me how to drive a stick shift. He taught me how to drive a car. And he was a big part of my life. But I think when you are a parent and you’re in that situation and you’re unsure what to do.
Victoria Volk: One of my guests a long time ago had shared that and I think this is great advice, and I’ll add on to it. But I think she had shared something to the effect of she made the conscious decision herself to not make any big decisions for one year. No big moves, no big career changes, none of those things, no big changes or moves or anything like that, no relationships or anything for the first year that after her spouse had passed away. And I think that’s great advice. I think how do you even find your does it take a year to find your bearings? I mean, maybe for some people, it takes five. Again, there’s no timeline to when you should when you are ready for another relationship. But again, it comes back to have you emotionally become complete with relationship so that you’re setting up your next relationship or your future relationship for success. And that’s really the goal isn’t it, is to have a successful relationship. Like, we don’t go into it thinking, oh my god. I’m just however long we’re together, I’ll just, you know, it is what it is. I think we hope for the best when we embark on sharing our life with somebody.
Victoria Volk: And so I think there’s a lot of and especially if you have children, there’s a lot of decision making that needs to go into that as well. It’s not as cut and dry as if you’re single and alone and, you know, it’s just you, you’re responsible for yourself. But I think we all come to those conclusions in our own time and people can raise an eyebrow at no matter what you do, they’ll think it’s too soon or it’s you should be dating by now or whatever other people’s timelines are. But they don’t see the personal work that perhaps you’re doing that’s unseen. Right? They might not know that you’ve gone through grief recovery with a counselor or a therapist or that you’re even seeing a therapist. Right? Like, not everybody dishes everything to everybody.
Victoria Volk: And so we can make these decisions for ourselves and still that we feel are positive and healthy and other people still aren’t going to fully understand our decision making and you owe no on the next explanation either. I wanna say that. Like oh, no one an explanation. My mom didn’t owe me an explanation, but would it have been nice? To be a part of the conversation. Yeah. Would it have been nice to have to feel heard and what my thoughts were even if my mother didn’t agree with them? Yes. But it was suck it up, buttercup. It is what it is. And so adaptability became one of my huge strengths from a very, very, very young age. And it’s still in one of my it’s actually one of my top ten strengths. Because I’ve had to learn to adapt to my environment many times over.
Victoria Volk: And so all these experiences that we have I’m, you know, I’ll bring up the Youmap is what changes our strengths over time. It’s our life experience and the things that we go through and endure and that help us build our own resiliency in challenging times, including death of a loved one or a spouse or a significant other or an end of a relationship because we’re taught how to acquire things and acquire people, but not what to do when we lose them. Right? And so grief recovery is the what to do when you lose them. And we’re simply not taught those skills and those tools and that knowledge from a young age. We’re just, we’re not.
Victoria Volk: And so that’s part of my mission here and why I started this podcast is so that we can talk about grief like we talk about the weather. So if you found this episode helpful, please share it leave a review if you feel so inclined to. I would love I read them all. I would love to hear your review. Share it with my audience as well and share it with a friend who you think is could find this information helpful. Maybe he’s in this situation and maybe just needs a little hug with words because I want this episode to feel like a hug with words that it is possible to move forward It is possible to enjoy a life of fulfillment even after death of a loved one spouse, significant other the love of your life, it is possible. And again, thank you so much for listening and pushing play. And I hope you come back next week. And remember, when you unleash your heart, you unleash your life. Much love.
Addiction, Divorce, Grieving Voices Guest, Grieving Voices Podcast, Podcast |
Kevin Boon | The Masks We Wear
SHOW NOTES SUMMARY:
When you fill out your calendar, do you intentionally set time aside to reflect and for introspection? Probably not. Most of us don’t do so. However, as Kevin shares in this episode, doing so for his grief has made all of the difference in his life.
Kevin speaks to the cumulative losses of his career, his father, his mother, and subsequent divorce. He also shares the impact of having a small nuclear family and missing out on a larger, extended family community growing up.
We often don’t think about how our nuclear family of origin impacts our grief. However, it has everything to do with how we respond to it. Kevin grew up, as many of us do, unable to express his grief. As a result, it manifested in different ways. That is until he discovered the work of Grief Recovery. Kevin shares his experience working with me, addressing his grief through my program Do Grief Differently.
Learn through our conversation how, as a male and someone who has experienced various losses, it is possible to recover from all of the emotions that make up grief; anger, sadness, bitterness, and everything in between.
RESOURCES:
CONNECT:
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If you are struggling with grief due to any of the 40+ losses, free resources are available HERE.
Are you enjoying the podcast? Check out my bi-weekly newsletter, The Unleashed Letters.
CONNECT WITH VICTORIA:
Victoria Volk 0:00
Thank you for tuning in to grieving voices. Today, my guest is Kevin Boon. He has worked the first 20 years of his career in the technology industry, and for the past 10 years has coached and consulted with startup entrepreneurs, and small to medium-sized businesses. He has a degree in economics, interest in history, politics, and has been interested in what it takes for economies and communities and for people to thrive. Thank you so much for being my guest, Kevin, also a Grief Recovery client of mine. Very interested in you sharing your experience with that at some point when it fits into your story, but let’s get started on really what brings you to grieving voices?
Kevin Boon 0:50
Well, I think that it takes me back, I think, to when I first kind of discovered you I was you know, I was going through some challenges in my life, I had, you know, had some career, I went through a job loss, I had my parents that had both kind of passed and went through kind of like what I would call, you know, I don’t know, health challenges that lasted for quite a few years. So there was just that part where there was just a lot of ongoing challenges with that I had a job that was stressful, and then eventually that job ended. And then within boat, you know, within about a year after my mom dying, my relationship ended. And so it was, for me, it was the three areas where basically, I had meaning in life. And within just a very short time window does work on. And so, and I knew I was grieving, I was, you know, working through and trying, you know, different methods and looking at different ways to support myself, but I was in a pretty, you know, tough state, it was a it was a really, really tough time to for going through that. And so I found you on I think it was what’s the guy? It’s it was a YouTube interview that you did with I think it was Brian Edwards. And, and it was just the topic was grief. And and what you said in those conversations, were just some things that just kind of said, Ah, there it is. That’s, you know, those are pieces and spoke to me, that was basically what it was. So I knew that I just, you know, I needed to reach out. And we did and we did did some work together, which was great. So so that was kind of that was my experience, you know, going through just the loss of those really important things in my life.
Victoria Volk 2:53
Would you say it was a dark night of the soul?
Kevin Boon 2:57
It was the dark night of my soul? Yeah, absolutely. And it was, you know, one of the things that you are one of the things I know that in the grief work that you do. You know, it says that, you know, grief is cumulative. And what that means to me is that you know if you have stressful experiences, if you have experiences that give you heartache Oh in your life, and if you don’t deal with those in some ways at the time, then they build. And what I realized, I virtually had like what I call a lifetime of working really hard and jobs always being on the go productive than trying to show up in a family trying to show up with my parents and a whole bunch of different things. A lot of times there were just things that would come up that would just never get resolved stead of going and sitting down and having a drink or eating food or watching TV. That was the way of tuning out. And I think that hit had been really hard to do what I call the introspection and this is what I think this worked help me to do a little bit of.
Victoria Volk 4:00
It’s like having a scab, right, this really gaping wound that scabs over, then you find yourself like picking at it in these moments of frustration or anger and it never resolves, right? It just always is a gaping wound, it’s always an unhealed wound and we go to the doctor when we have a broken arm or broken leg. But I think society is maybe getting better about going to a professional when they have a broken heart. But yeah, your progression of going through the program and seeing where you started and then seeing where you landed at the end. It was beautiful to be witness to that and you just see people and I saw you just get lighter and lighter like you just you carry yourself different you show up differently. Did you feel that way in your life and relationships and connections with other people and
Kevin Boon 4:54
Yeah, it definitely was something we’re at the end of that I came out lighter. And I was carrying, I would say a lot of unresolved grief with my mother. You know, it was interesting because my mother died in, you know, 2018. And I remember just kind of, and I was we, you know, the whole family, we were with her in palliative care when she passed, you know, it was trying to, you know, kind of be there. But I was almost like, in this place where I was feeling numb. You know, I didn’t know what the emotions were like, I couldn’t cry. I couldn’t, you know, I couldn’t let this go. I think when I went through the grief work, especially around my mother, that was where the tears started to flow. And I thought, holy smokes, this is, you know, this is deep stuff, and it just started to get me into this place is like, Oh, okay. You know, like, just these little pockets, where it was like, Oh, my God, this happened. And this is how I felt. And sometimes it’s not even so much about what somebody does, it’s, it’s about just the feelings that you it’s, it’s even their state of mind, you know, my mother would be in a place where she, a lot of times was worried, or she was anxious, or she was depressed herself. Like she, you know, she had moved from England, you know, you know, and kind of lost that connection with her family. And I think she was going through her own grief, I realized so much around how, especially when I was little, some of them were memories that I had, but some of them were not memories, you know, they were, they were just things that I go, Oh, my God, I just felt intuitively into this place. And it’s like, all there it is, you know, and it’s and so, so I think that the work of your work helped me to open up to some of these bigger windows of things that maybe I hadn’t paid attention to. before so.
Victoria Volk 6:53
Yeah, and what I hear and you saying that, and what, you know, when you went through the process, it brings the importance of understanding how important our environment is into our development. And like, you spoke to your mom’s own stuff she was experiencing and going through, and like, let’s say a family has a dog, but everybody in the family is kind of anxious, you know, they’re just kind of like, unsettled within themselves and just kind of anxious family maybe even angry. Yeah, you often see that reflected in their dog, you know, there’ll be an aggressive dog or a really scared dog. I actually had that purse, I just comes to my mind. Now we had tried to adopt it, we adopted a dog poodle, which isn’t kind of a nervous dog anyway, but my children were young, and this dog just did not that nervous energy, and the energy of the children. It was too much for this dog, and he did not adapt well to our family. Right. Gave him to a retired couple. He was like a completely different dog. Yes. And I think just as dogs respond to their environment, in either in how they behave and react, so do we as children growing up in that environment. So if it’s, if they’re if you’re in an environment that’s really angry, and there’s a lot of fighting, and there’s a you know, lack of stability, emotional stability, yeah, might be someone who has trouble coping and managing your own emotions as you get older. Right. It’s, this is why we say adulthood is childhood reenactments. And so I just wanted to highlight that, it doesn’t mean you’re crazy as a Griever. That’s where people kind of get stuck in feeling like it’s all them. We’re all products of our environments and our experiences. So thank you for highlighting that and mentioning that.
Kevin Boon 8:49
Yeah, absolutely. And I would add something really important. It’s, you know, as I went through looking at my childhood, my parents immigrated, like I said, from England, they came to Canada when I was like four months old, like I was a baby in arms, coming to Canada, and then we lived in Canada for four years. We went to Australia for four years. But what we were we were that typical nuclear family, you know, so, in my family back in England, you know, there was uncles and aunts and grandparents, like if I was in that environment back there, you know, we would have gone weekends over to visit the grandparents or visit the uncles or you know, kind of do things with this wider audience and what I realized as I started looking at my own and I caught my grief journey was just living in the nuclear world. Where are this little nuclear niche where it’s your mom and dad are your primary caregivers. That’s not a lot of that’s just a pretty narrow perception of the types of personalities that are out there. And it just so happened that my mother you know, was you know, somebody who worried a lot something. He had a lot of anxiety, she was, you know, lonely, depressed, like, in her own way to pick that up, like, it was like, you know, I’m intuitive like I’m, I’m empathic, I know that I am that, you know, and as a child, she was the person who I spent like 80% of my time with. And then my dad on the other end was, he was always like working at jobs and always busy. But I knew that you know, money and survival were part of their, you know, their, their modus operandi type of thing they were, that’s where they operated from. And so what I’ve discovered for my own journey is that, number one, how much of a loss it was to not have that wider circle of influence. Like even mentors, when I think about my life growing up, like, I don’t think I really ever had what I would call a mentor, until I got into like adulthood in my 30s or 40s. Like, like, like to not have, like, you know, when kids like, you know, they say that when a child thrives at some level, there’s somebody that they meet along the way, that says, hey, you know, they, they pay attention to them. They say, you know, what, you’ve got this skill here, or you can do this, or they have a different perception. And I realized in my life, that part of my grieving was the grief that I didn’t have that bigger, expanded network of people within my community, if you will, or tribe, whatever you want to call it. You know,
Victoria Volk 11:30
Don’t you find that interesting that what you do now, and what you’re interested in is all about community. And, you know, it’s like you’re looking to build something that you didn’t have, right? You’re looking to support something you didn’t have? And I, yeah, I think our passions generally do come from our pain.
Kevin Boon 11:54
Oh big time. And, you know, it’s, it’s interesting, because I’m a big fan of Gabor Ma Tei. And Gordon Neufeld, they have a book and it’s called, I’ve actually got it here, it’s called hold on to your kids. And the whole premise of this book describes the fact that as a culture, you know, for the last two or three generations, and going back to the baby boomers like this goes back to the baby boomers, but what they say is that we have a culture, where children at a very young age, lose their family attachment, and they become peer attached. So they become attached to their friends and schools, or if you put a knife pad in front of them, they become attached to people online, whatever it is, and that peer attachment is crippling our self-esteem, you know, that’s part of the message. And I and I look at that, and I and so this is where my interest in kind of like being able to present this stuff and to talk about some of these ideas because this is a big challenge. It’s, you know, in any ways, for me, it’s not just me, you know, I have my own unique experience of this. But there’s a bigger expanded challenge that we face in society, with the fact that, you know, most kids today are becoming pure attached at a very young age. And the whole society teaches us to, you know, that, Oh, you know, we got to go to school, you got to go to preschool, well, you got to go to pre, preschool, whatever it is, and we get kids out of the house, and they’re in this peer attached world, which is not as reliable now, if they go at home to their family, and their parents are stressed because they’re, they’ve got jobs that are busy, and they’re running around all the time, then it’s also hard for them to get the family attachment. So there’s a bunch of things where sometimes we’re just not able to slow down as a society. And so you know, what does a child need? You know, and what does a child need? You know, a child needs a gabber Mati and others talk about they need attachment. And they need authenticity. So it’s a place where they can be themselves, they can be true to themselves, they don’t have to try to fit in and get marks in school, they can be themselves what is, you know, what is that true essence of self. So that’s been my search. And the grief work is a really important part to that. So that’s, yeah, interesting.
Victoria Volk 14:30
Two words that come to my mind when you’re talking about that, you know, the attachments, you know, peer attachment and family attachment is add in like adding a grief event right, like a traumatic loss or a really challenging time or a mental health challenge with a family member or parent or a child. All of these other components of life that happen that are unfavorable to us, and how do you cope? You know, it’s so we all have different ways. is that we do that that are unhealthy. Usually, that’s so I think we’re speaking to is all these different threads that kind of really just create this tapestry of really what’s needed as is balanced to. And I thought of to when you were talking about with the peers, it’s really about teaching our kids and to, it really matters who you surround yourself with, not just as an adult and emulating that. But as a child, like how do you how do you help children discern who is going to be that peer, that is going to uplift you and inspire and encourage and, and really, truly be a friend? You know? Yes. And a role model? In as what a friend really is?
Kevin Boon 15:49
Yes, it’s the healthy relationships, right? Because, you know, we can talk family attachments, but if you’re, you know, if your parents are abusive, or neglectful, or they’re stressed, whatever it is, you’re going to struggle within that environment. And I think it’s people I don’t know, it’s people like Oprah, I think I remember for her, you know, she had a challenging childhood. But she had, you know, people along the way that just, you know, were there that paid attention to her and inspired her, you know, things along that lines. And I think that that’s the part that it’s really important, I think, for society to figure out how do we find that place where a child’s going to attach to create a connection, where they go, oh, you know, I’m important, you know, and, and this gets into, like, I think some of the bigger challenges we’re having in our society right now, where I think that people have, you know, we try so much in our technology world, to try to have like, you know, the, the one, you know, the one app that’s going to solve all our problems, or the, you know, the special thing that if we can talk to a million people, then you know, people are going to be saved, whatever it is, through through whatever, whatever this method that we’re teaching, but the reality is, sometimes I think that people just, you know, we need to have that personal connection, that personal interaction and as children, that that’s about attention, somebody’s paying attention to you in a in a real positive and in an uplifting way that that pays attention. You know, that’s, that’s so, so important.
Victoria Volk 17:27
And that’s the Grief Recovery experience. Right?
Kevin Boon 17:29
Totally, totally. Absolutely.
Victoria Volk 17:31
It really is, you feel heard for the first time. And oftentimes, that’s what many clients have said is, I felt like I had a place where someone really, truly understood and where I could really, in a safe space, you know, dig into that.
Kevin Boon 17:46
Yeah, more fully. And I realized, I realized, as I was going through my experiences, I realized that it was really hard to be able to have somebody here, you know, and, you know, and so, you know, and I don’t know, trying to be vulnerable, and just saying, Hey, I’m feeling this right now. It’s like, there was a period of time where it was nobody, no one was really interested in having that conversation with me. You know, and, and if anything, you know, as a man, I would look weak, you know, that was it, if I, if I, and I think that this is this, you know, this is the part that I found that the majority not I don’t know, if it’s, I don’t even know what the percentage is. But a lot of people do not have an ability to talk and be with somebody in grief. I don’t know. And I don’t know why that is, I think our society has kind of tried to focus, you know, we focus on the material world, we focus on the world outside of us, getting things done productivity, having jobs, doing all this stuff. But we, we don’t pay attention to the inner world, I think most of us are so out outward, focused in terms of what we what we do, you know, and as a result, we neglect things like a grieving experience, you know, we don’t give ourselves time.
Victoria Volk 19:11
I believe that there would be a really good percentage, I don’t know what it is, but I’m just speculating here of a male in your situation, who essentially lost everything, lost your marriage, lost your parents, your mom and all this in a short amount of time you had you moved a lot of change in a short amount of time, your career, a lot of men would have probably contemplated suicide. Oh, had that ever crossed your mind?
Kevin Boon 19:38
It’s you know what, there were times when I thought, You know what, I just don’t know if this is going to be, you know, if I’m going to be able to do this, and I think I knew well enough, though, that there were people that I loved and people that I cared about. And I thought that if I did that, it would be hard experience for them. And so I think I was able to connect to that in at least a certain way. I, you know, I do have a friend from my university days who committed suicide. And he, you know, he had gone through something similar, he had lost his relationship. And he was a family guy. He wanted to be that family like that, that was so important for him. And I know that he kind of just, you know, he kind of just bandied around for about four or five years. And then I don’t know, and I heard the news, kind of, like, after the fact that wasn’t in touch with him, because it was kind of like, you know, 20 years after we had graduated, so to speak. But, but it was sad, you know, and the other challenge is, is that when he passed, very few people talked about that, you know, the suicide or why he did it, or anything it was, it was talking about his memory, good guy, all that kind of stuff, and, you know, kind of celebrating that, but nobody wanted to go to that place as to you know, why he might have done that? Or even to have that discussion, you know, so I do you know, to answer that question, I had thought about it, but at the same time, I never lean that way. Let’s just put it like that. I just, I think I thought you know what, no, I know, I can’t do that. So what I did instead, to take myself outside of that realm was I realized that I have to create some sort of purpose for myself. Because and what I did was I developed purpose in what I called ritual. And ritual for me was around walking. And so that was an ability where I just started, I made a commitment, you know, I’m going to walk an hour and a half to two hours every day. And in that time, I’m going and I’m going to disconnect from electronics, you know, so it’s not listening to an iPad, or a podcast episode or something like that. It was about disconnecting, and just going into ritual, so calling in whatever it was just, you know, to be able to reflect, to work through things so,
Victoria Volk 22:11
That’s an amazing tip. And it’s connecting to the present moment and to nature to at the same time.
Kevin Boon 22:17
Yeah, absolutely. And it was interesting, because I did that for when I when my marriage first ended, and I moved out of my house, that was what became my ritual for the first year and a half, after moving out, it was something that was really important. And then I did lose connection to that for a little while. And then I’ve I’ve moved recently, and I would say that within the last month or so I’ve actually really taken that up again, but I find the ritual piece and the intention. And things like that are just a really are a really important part to finding a way to bring yourself into being centered so,
Victoria Volk 23:01
Intention is huge. I will I will agree with that. Yes, intention is huge into anything that we do, you know, even if before you go into a difficult conversation with someone, you know, thinking about your intention, like what do you want to bring? You know, do you want to bring anger and bitterness and resentment to this conversation? Or do you want to bring compassion and open ears and, you know, that are open to listening and honoring the other person to and their feelings? I don’t know, what made me say that or what came, but I felt like I needed to say that, but intention is huge. In a lot in most situations.
Kevin Boon 23:36
Yeah, absolutely. I think one of the things that I noticed, and I and I agree with you on all of that, it’s, it’s the people my age, right? So I’m in my mid to late 50s. You know, I’ve been around for a while, right? Like, my, my, I’ve got history, right? And it’s like, when I think back about that whole grief thing about being cumulative, you know, and I think people that I know my age, like when you’ve had 50, some odd years to kind of like not process your stuff, then either you’re going to do one or two things, you’re going to be on medication, you know, you’re going to either, you know, soothe yourself with alcohol or drugs or whatever it is, or, or whatever, you know, watching TV, whatever the like zoning out. And I think that, you know, part of, and I feel that we have a lot of people that are in that place, you know, that’s where they live, you know, they live in the world of either addictions, or zoning out or whatever it is, or you know, they’re on prescription medications, and I just really didn’t want to go that route. And I think the worst case scenario that happens for that is that I think that as my dad got older, he went through and had dementia cysts symptoms, you know, and I think what happens there’s a certain period where your cognitive abilities kind of shut down or whatever it is, or they change you’re not able to quite do it and if and if the grief has kind of accumulated over your lifetime With the trauma that you’ve experienced, and you haven’t processed it, I don’t know what the stats talk about. But I’m a big believer that things like dementia, or things like around are caused by unresolved grief, or that’s my opinion anyway, just based on what I’ve what I see with it, when I look at the work you do, and especially the work when you do it one on one or in small groups, but you and I’ve done the work together one on one, it’s like, it’s something that we need to just have a bigger, a bigger awareness, like a bigger availability for because I think that a lot of people are looking to be heard, but they’re not there was an article and I’ll just share it in Canadian in one of the Canadian news things, and it just said that there’s a crisis in mental health in Canada. And they were just talking about, you know, with COVID, with all the, you know, the challenges that we’ve had the last few years that there’s a crisis in mental health, and they said that the biggest challenge is the fact that people can’t really get access to help they need. And therapy is, you know, people usually there’s waiting lists, and what ends up happening as either people are put on medication, or they don’t get treatment. And that’s a huge challenge that we have societally.
Victoria Volk 26:13
I think there were always mental health challenges. I just think that during COVID, for a lot of people, I believe it was the straw that broke the camel’s back, you know, it was like this one last straw for a lot of people, but I think we’ve always had it just, you know, as a society, I think it just kind of turn a blind eye to it. And it’s not me, it’s not happening to me, it’s Nobody I know. So, you know, yeah, that mindset.
Kevin Boon 26:43
Yeah, definitely. Well, and I think the other thing, too, today that accentuates it is technology, right? And, you know, the, I don’t know, if you’ve ever, if you’ve watched the movie, the social dilemma, or the, you know, looked at some of the work that there’s a center for humane technology, that kind of, it’s the organization that came out of the movie, the social dilemma, it’s run by Tristan Harris. And they actually have on their website, they actually have eight specific areas where technology does harm, and most of them are in the areas of mental health. So it’s designed to maximize our screen time, you know, our phones are built on like a little gambling casino, where we’ve got little buttons that give us rewards, and we’ve got, you know, things that we’re striving for, like likes, or you know, whatever it is, and, and it’s like a casino, you know, it’s, it’s, we’ve, we’ve built this mentality, and yet, and then we give that to kids when they’re young, right, or even in their teens, like it’s, and I think those are the things that are kind of probably magnifying it, that a level that we you know, that’s that’s adding another layer to what has already been there, like you said, it’s always been there.
Victoria Volk 27:57
So you’ve shared a few tips throughout in different insights, what is the best piece of advice you ever received, during your time dealing with when you had your dark night of the soul or when you were really struggling, the best piece of advice you received, or perhaps what you would share with people now, after you’ve gone through kind of addressing your grief.
Kevin Boon 28:22
I think it’s, you know, it comes down to what the Grief Recovery Method does. Or what you do within your work is it’s having a listener, you if you carry grief, or if you carry trauma, or if there’s anxiety, whatever you’re going through, it’s really important to have, you know, one, two, or two or three people, three or four people in your circle that can be listeners. And so when we did our work together, you were a listener throughout some of that, I have my sister who I’m well connected to, she’s a listener, like we work, you know, we and she understands me, so to speak, you know, which is really, really cool, right? And, and then I have one or two other friends, in particular male friends, who I’m able to have the conversation with i One of the things that I had also done was I joined a men’s group when I went through some of these challenges, and I found that the men’s group allowed me to give voice to what I was feeling and what I was going through. And interestingly enough, I really discovered that most men struggle with this stuff. It’s not just me again, it’s and for men more than ever, you are more than more than women, probably they have a harder time verbalizing it or getting it out. You know? So to have that space has been really, really important to.
Victoria Volk 29:51
Yeah, we just don’t have the language. We don’t have the language and I’ll put it in the show notes. But I recently came across something it’s called the emotional wheel. And it’s really expressive words of how you feel right? But it gives you more language. Yes, you can get in order to really, it’s like, yeah, I might be sad, but it’s not just sad. It’s what’s deeper than that, you know, there could be bitterness there too, could be anger, it could be frustration. Grief is so much more than just, it embodies all of it, and even joy. Even joy.
Kevin Boon 30:26
Yeah, definitely. It was interesting. I was having a conversation with a gentleman the other day, and, and he works, you know, hard. He’s, he’s about my age, and he works at a job he’s does management, he’s just works very hard at his work, right. And he’s, he gets up early in the morning, he’s, you know, works long days, he’s got to manage teams. And we’ve just talked about over the time, but the thing that he said to me was, he says, you know, he, and it was just because I shared my story with him, he opened up to me and started to share that, you know, he’s been going through depression challenges, and he’s been seeing a therapist and trying to kind of connect to what that is, and, and again, on the outside, you know, you’d see this person and you say, Wow, they’ve got it all together, right? They’ve, they’re doing great, you know, they’ve got a great job, they’re, you know, they’re, they’ve got a nice home, all that kind of good stuff. But there’s just something there that, you know, that if it wouldn’t have been, let’s say, where I started that conversation at some level, that would have probably not come out, you know, in normal circumstances,
Victoria Volk 31:32
Right? You went first. And sometimes I think that’s what we need to do is go first to give other people permission, that it’s okay to share. Yeah, definitely. Yeah. So what has your grief taught you?
Kevin Boon 31:44
I don’t know, my grief, my grief has taught me, it’s taught me that all aspects of me are important, not just the surface aspect in the corporate world, right. You know, they, you know, I used to have, and I used to, I heard the catch term corporate speak, you know, and you speak, corporate speak. And it’s like, you know, while we’re doing this, and we’re doing all this great stuff, and you see it in great marketing language, and you present this image to the world that wow, things are just shiny and rosy. And, you know, what a great place, you know, and all that stuff. But what Greif taught me is that, you know, there’s, there’s two worlds, and both worlds are important. In fact, the the world around our emotions, in our psyche, is probably the most important world. And because that’s the world that if we do well within that place, then it impacts how we do in our other parts of our life. But when we neglect that world, to focus on some sort of an image, or mask, or whatever it is that we were, you know, the Eleanor Rigby song right, Paul McCartney, or the Beatles, were they saying, you know, putting your mask at the face in a jar by the door, right? So it was like, I don’t know if you’ve ever heard that song where they go through that, that, that thing, but it’s all about this idea that, okay, I’m, I’m in my home right now. I’m feeling a certain way. But now I’m gonna go out into the world, I’m gonna put this mask on. And I think for the longest time, that was what I did in the world. And what I didn’t realize what I didn’t know that how much hurt and how much grief and how much was unresolved in there. So grief has taught me that I’m much bigger, and much more whole than I than I ever imagined that I was, let’s say, you know? So it’s important. You know, it’s that. And when you talked about the idea of joy, right, and being able to connect to both, you know, the grief, emotions, but also the positive emotions. I think there’s positive emotions that come from grief, when you’re able to really sit with it for a period of time and let it out. It can. It can make room where that all There you go, that is such a relief. I’ve gotten that off my chest. And let me just sit in that. And then oh, like, it’s like thinking about, let’s say, my experience with my mother, you know what I loved and cared deeply about my mother, and that love and care needed to come out. But it couldn’t come out until I let go with a grief. I don’t know if that makes sense. But,
Victoria Volk 34:31
Yeah, it’s like, days and days of clouds and rain and no sun, and then all of a sudden, the sun comes out, right? Yeah. And it’s this beautiful thing, and you bask in it, and you feel warmth, and joy and lightness. And yeah, I totally get it.
Kevin Boon 34:48
Yeah, for sure. So that was a bit long-winded, but hopefully answered that question.
Victoria Volk 34:55
No, I was it was a good beautiful answer, actually. Is there anything else that you would like to share that you didn’t get a chance to?
Kevin Boon 35:01
Yeah, I would like to just say one thing. It’s, you know, my parents as they went through their life, I think one of the biggest challenges that they had was economic uncertainty. And the other passion that I have in being able to kind of bring to light in the work that I’m doing now is to really talk about how we build economies, where we were, as a society, we start to take people out of this mindset of having to live in economic survival, because I feel that when people are focused on economic survival, that that creates trauma, it creates grief in its own way, it creates the ability where, you know, we don’t pay attention to children, things along that lines, and when we build structures within societies that kind of, you know, make it hard for people to be successful. Like, I don’t know, I think in the US, right, we talk about the fact that the gig economy has emerged, right? Like, you know, and people are going out, and they’re working multiple jobs, a lot of times at minimum wage, right. And, and it’s, it’s hard for them, it’s, they call it the decline or the stagnation of the middle classes. And I think that these are big, big challenges in a culture that just add to our collective trauma, it adds to our grief. And it means that we stay stuck as a society. So for me, my philosophy is that, you know, not only do we want to work with people to help them help their individual lives and work through the challenges that they have, but there’s a collective thing that we can do, from systems, you know, in terms of how we build economic systems, and things along that lines that can really help to, to just change, to change the experience, like we live in such a technology-rich world, that abundance abounds, and phenomenal levels, right? And yet we hoard wealth, we and or we create rules around it that you know, that it’s kind of like you know that people get stuck. And so when we’re trying to live to a material world, we’re getting stuck in our ability to really be able to just enjoy and connect to our true selves as the authentic self, if you will. So,
Victoria Volk 37:28
Two thoughts come to my mind, as I hear you talking about that just the economic impact, right of all that you shared, there is an economic impact to grief. It’s huge. The Grief Recovery Institute did a study on this. It’s the grief index study the company empathy, which is an app for Grievers, they released publication regarding economic repercussions of grief as well. And so I’ll put that in the show notes as well as where people can find that. Yeah, I just Yeah, exactly what you what you share, there is an economic impact, definitely on as a whole, right, as a whole.
Kevin Boon 38:11
Yeah, definitely. There’s, there’s another index, that’s, you know, that you might be interested into kind of connect the dots. But in the US, it’s called the job quality index. And this is it’s I don’t know if you just research or just Google job quality index, but they, they describe the fact that within the last 40 years in America, that jobs have basically transitioned from were like back in the early 70s. You know, I forget what it was like, but like, it was like, the majority were either medium, medium to high paying jobs, like over 70%, something like that. And today, the, amount of low-paying jobs has actually gone to over 60% and those of transition from manufacturing to the services economy. So America used to manufacture most of their stuff, you know, people used to live comfortable middle-class lives, a lot of those jobs changed or went away. And today we work in service jobs, you know, that pay much lower. And in those impacts like this is this is why I think that the grief part for me, from my own personal experiences has been my foundation that says, Okay, this is where we need to look at economics, this is where we need to look at technology, this is where we need to look at the outputs of what we bring into the world. And so to build thriving economies, you know, and you see it like in some economies like in Europe and other places where they have, you know, a decent middle class where they’ve got a good social safety net, you know, things along that lines where people live comfortable lives. Whereas I think in some of our cultures and America is probably one of them, but we neglect that, you know, just the fact that, you know, a woman who’s pregnant that gives birth to a baby has to go back to work in like three weeks or whatever it is like, you know, to have a real maternity option or a paternity option for people to spend time in those important attachment, important attachment years with children is so critical, you know, in our society. So I, my belief is that it has to happen from two levels healing. Number one is each one of us has an individual responsibility for ourselves. But I think on the other end, there’s a collective responsibility that we can start to do to build systems that create more prosperity. And frankly, that’s the essence of just the podcast that I’m in the process of launching, to be able to bring those topics to light. So,
Victoria Volk 40:53
Sounds wonderful. Yeah, I think that’s a good topic. Yeah. Awesome. Well, where can people find you if they’re interested in what you’re doing and learning more about you?
Kevin Boon 41:05
Yeah. So right now, they can connect with me on LinkedIn. So it’s my it’s, it’s K Boon, I think it’s our @kboon on LinkedIn. And then I’m going to be launching my podcast, standing in both worlds is the name of the podcast. And you’ll be able to find that on most places where you get your podcasts. So that should be live in the next month or so.
Victoria Volk 41:33
Amazing. Now, at the time of this recording, it’s going to be several months until your podcast actually goes Yes. But that will be put in the show notes by the time people listen, and where they can connect with you. And I also want to add that, if you are interested in going through the process that Kevin did, which inspired me, actually, you and several other clients I took through the program, I’ve expanded on it. And it’s now called do grief differently. And it’s a 12-week program that combines both the Grief Recovery method as it is because it’s brilliant as it is, along with another program called Youmap. And so I bring those two together, because, like in your experience, when you’ve lost everything, and you ask yourself, you know, you go through the grief experience of working through your stuff in which is a continual process. It’s always a continual process. Once you learn the tools, you always have them but then you ask yourself, well, what now? And so Youmap is like your guide your Northstar in doing that. And so if you’re interested in that, I will put the link in the show notes for that as well. In the meantime, I hope you come back and listen again. And remember when you unleash your heart you unleash your life. Much love.